Heater
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Re: Running Windows Screensavers

Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:58 pm

Phoenixbyrd wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:40 pm
Very much the LEAST welcoming Raspberry Pi community I have encountered has in fact been this very official Raspberry Pi community, both from it's users as well as it's mods. I'm glad you've helped people, but the snarky attitudes I've encountered and then the seemingly utter amazement that I'm the one with an attitude is garbage BS. That's the issue with a community like this, it's a clique, you're either with the "cool posters" or you're stuck with ridiculous useless garbage like hurr durr I just turn off my monitor and save monies! And why? IDK why, lack of a social life outside of moms basement making it hard to develop social connections maybe? Could also explain the shock and awe when people don't take their stupidity so kindly as they have come to expect from mommy calling them special on the daily.
The thing is, one can always ignore any post that feels a bit deriding, rude, negative, whatever.

But to insult the entire forum membership because one or two people have done that is not going to endear you to that forum membership in general. It's not going to attract any positive discussion in your thread, who would want to deal with such an abrasive person? It's not going to inspire anyone to help you.

In short it's better to bite your lip, save the abuse, ignore the nay sayers. I'm sure people you will find more agreeable will turn up. Anything else is not doing yourself any favours.
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GlowInTheDark
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Re: Running Windows Screensavers

Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:52 pm

It's not going to inspire anyone to help you.
The guys doesn't need help. He is TELLING not asking.

Anyway, found your response pretty condescending. Not helpful.
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Heater
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Re: Running Windows Screensavers

Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:12 pm

GlowInTheDark wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:52 pm
Anyway, found your response pretty condescending. Not helpful.
I certainly don't mean to be condescending.

I'm just responding as member of a group that is being put down here.

Good manners costs nothing.

Perhaps I should take my own advice and not respond to the rude and crude.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

Phoenixbyrd
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Re: Running Windows Screensavers

Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:36 pm

Here's some friendly advice that might serve everyone well!

If you can dish it, you can take it. If you can't take it, zip it unless it was asked for lest you want the same in return.

Seems to me there are too many socially stunted people here who like to dish it but can't handle having it returned back at them.

As for not addressing that one part of someone's reply... When you find the folly in your logic, you'll have your answer. Best of luck on figuring it out. Feel like it might be in very much need!
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thagrol
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Re: Running Windows Screensavers

Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:58 pm

Heater wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:12 pm
Perhaps I should take my own advice and not respond to the rude and crude.
Certain users who appear to live under bridges get added to my foes list. That way I'm no longer tempted to feed them.

It's clear to me that Phoenixbyrd has a very low opinion of everyone on here, a huge chip on both shoulders, cannot take what he dishes out, lacks the courage to name those he's attacking, has a poor (though common) attitude to software theft and copyright infringement, fails to back up his claims with evidence when asked to, and lastly has a strange concept of rational argument and making friends and influencing people.

@Phoenixbyrd: don't bother replying. I won't see it. You're now on my foes list.

Edit: if you do choose to reply, perhaps you'd care to explain the "folly in [my] logic". Not for me, but so others can appreciate your reasoning.
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Re: Running Windows Screensavers

Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:54 pm

thagrol wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:43 pm
What gets to me is the casual misunderstanding of IP rights and Copyright together with the assumption that if someting is old and available for free on one website you can do whatever you want with it, including redistribute it without asking permission first.
Age of the material will be a valid defense...in about 70 or 80 years (assuming no changes in copyright duration in the mean time...which is not something I'd care to bet money on).

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Re: Running Windows Screensavers

Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:09 am

This does raise the issue of Copyright which should be talked about.

Does copying it or emulating it violate copyright even if for educational/personal, non profit use?
If a corporation or other entity changes or edits the original material does it violate the copyright if they try to pass it off as original?
At what point does copyrighted material become public IP?

IP - Intellectual Property is not created by corporations but by the people working there.
These corporations can exist longer than the original creator.
Who does it belong to and for how long?
Some Corporation that bought it and has lawyers protecting it and extending it ad Infinium?

IP can exist for so long and become part of the Culture, yet those who "own" it say they can to do whatever they want with it.
Ignoring the fact the same culture made it a profitable IP for them.
Destruction of IP seems to be a trend these days and anyone trying to save it gets hit by lawyers.

Fair use?
Saving vanishing IP or saving culture?
I think we needs laws that releases IP into the public domain after a period of time.
It becomes "owned" by the people who actually paid for it over a decade or so and made profit for those that created it.
Not profit for those that just buy/acquire it later on and have lawyers and judges that defend their "acquired" property..

MS no longer supports their old OSes, they see no profit in it.
If the software ran on Windows 3.1/95 is it still protected?

Personal attacks distract from the debate.
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Imperf3kt
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Re: Running Windows Screensavers

Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:17 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:09 am
This does raise the issue of Copyright which should be talked about.

Does copying it or emulating it violate copyright even if for educational/personal, non profit use?
If a corporation or other entity changes or edits the original material does it violate the copyright if they try to pass it off as original?
At what point does copyrighted material become public IP?

IP - Intellectual Property is not created by corporations but by the people working there.
These corporations can exist longer than the original creator.
Who does it belong to and for how long?
Some Corporation that bought it and has lawyers protecting it and extending it ad Infinium?

IP can exist for so long and become part of the Culture, yet those who "own" it say they can to do whatever they want with it.
Ignoring the fact the same culture made it a profitable IP for them.
Destruction of IP seems to be a trend these days and anyone trying to save it gets hit by lawyers.

Fair use?
Saving vanishing IP or saving culture?
I think we needs laws that releases IP into the public domain after a period of time.
It becomes "owned" by the people who actually paid for it over a decade or so and made profit for those that created it.
Not profit for those that just buy/acquire it later on and have lawyers and judges that defend their "acquired" property..

MS no longer supports their old OSes, they see no profit in it.
If the software ran on Windows 3.1/95 is it still protected?

Personal attacks distract from the debate.
All of these points are covered in both international and state laws.
There doesn't really need to be discussion of them here where they're unrelated to Raspberry Pi.

But to answer one question, when a company owns the IP, it is because the person who made the content worked under contract and their rights to their creation was effectively directly passed to the company as per the conditions in their contract / employment agreement.
And appropriately, the same contract could merely allow the company licensing rights and the creator remains the IP holder.


How long do these things stay copyrighted? 95 years. Thank Disney, it used to be 75


Regards "fair use".......

99.9999999% of people on the internet don't know what this exception means and think it a get out of jail free pass.
It's not, there are multiple restrictions to "fair use"
It is also specifically an American law but there are similar clauses in Australian and European laws as well.
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Re: Running Windows Screensavers

Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:27 am

Imperf3kt wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:17 am
Gavinmc42 wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:09 am
This does raise the issue of Copyright which should be talked about.

Does copying it or emulating it violate copyright even if for educational/personal, non profit use?
If a corporation or other entity changes or edits the original material does it violate the copyright if they try to pass it off as original?
At what point does copyrighted material become public IP?

IP - Intellectual Property is not created by corporations but by the people working there.
These corporations can exist longer than the original creator.
Who does it belong to and for how long?
Some Corporation that bought it and has lawyers protecting it and extending it ad Infinium?

IP can exist for so long and become part of the Culture, yet those who "own" it say they can to do whatever they want with it.
Ignoring the fact the same culture made it a profitable IP for them.
Destruction of IP seems to be a trend these days and anyone trying to save it gets hit by lawyers.

Fair use?
Saving vanishing IP or saving culture?
I think we needs laws that releases IP into the public domain after a period of time.
It becomes "owned" by the people who actually paid for it over a decade or so and made profit for those that created it.
Not profit for those that just buy/acquire it later on and have lawyers and judges that defend their "acquired" property..

MS no longer supports their old OSes, they see no profit in it.
If the software ran on Windows 3.1/95 is it still protected?

Personal attacks distract from the debate.
All of these points are covered in both international and state laws.
There doesn't really need to be discussion of them here where they're unrelated to Raspberry Pi.

But to answer one question, when a company owns the IP, it is because the person who made the content worked under contract and their rights to their creation was effectively directly passed to the company as per the conditions in their contract / employment agreement.
And appropriately, the same contract could merely allow the company licensing rights and the creator remains the IP holder.
That's part of the answer, but not all of it. Rights can be sold by the holder to another entity. (This is pretty common in music, not so much for written works). The situation you're taking about is a "work done for hire", and that often applies to programs. Some companies will insist that programmers working for them sign an agreement that everything they write while employed there is a work done for hire. Other companies don't so this, which means that if you put a copyright notice in a program you write for them, you are the rights holder...at least in theory.
How long do these things stay copyrighted? 95 years. Thank Disney, it used to be 75
In the US (can't speak to elsewhere), that's the case for copyrights held by corporations. And you're right that the extension was--for all practical purposes--done specifically for Disney. It was so they could maintain copyright on the mouse, in the specific case, _Steamboat Willie_ that was made in 1928. It is also why I expect them to make a major push for another extension Real Soon Now.

For individuals, it is life plus 70 years. It used to be life plus 50 years, but when the corporate copyrights were extended, so were the individual ones.

And, just for a bit more completeness, publishers attempt to buy all rights. Smart authors insist on only sell those rights needed for the actual publication. In the US, this frequently means "first North American serial rights", which covers both magazines and books. For the books my wife had published, she explicitly reserved game rights, rather that reserving those under "all other rights".

Heater
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Re: Running Windows Screensavers

Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:17 am

In short any software you find is covered by copyright law. If there is no licensing terms attached to it you are not allowed, by copyright law, to copy it. So, better look for those licensing terms and comply with them.

Given that copyright has been discussed ad nauseam all over any place related to software for decades now I find it amazing that so few are familiar with even the basics.
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Re: Running Windows Screensavers

Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:53 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:54 pm
thagrol wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:43 pm
What gets to me is the casual misunderstanding of IP rights and Copyright together with the assumption that if someting is old and available for free on one website you can do whatever you want with it, including redistribute it without asking permission first.
Age of the material will be a valid defense...in about 70 or 80 years (assuming no changes in copyright duration in the mean time...which is not something I'd care to bet money on).
Indeed. IIRC, at least in some countries, it's life plus 70 years for stuff "owned" by people. No idea what it is for stuff "owned" by corporations.

Edit:

Ooops. posted before reading the rest of the thread. Sorry.
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Re: Running Windows Screensavers

Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:02 am

Heater wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:17 am
In short any software you find is covered by copyright law. If there is no licensing terms attached to it you are not allowed, by copyright law, to copy it. So, better look for those licensing terms and comply with them.
Given you have to copy software into RAM from storage in order to run it (PICO excepted) no license == unusable software :)

Not entirely serious here but IIRC but the copy into RAM thing was one of the arguments used to justify copyright on compiled code rather than just on source code.
Given that copyright has been discussed ad nauseam all over any place related to software for decades now I find it amazing that so few are familiar with even the basics.
As do I.
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Re: Running Windows Screensavers

Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:08 pm

can somebody show me a sample (or several samples thereof) of a modern HDMI LCD/LED screen with "phosphor burn-in" (or some similar to that effect) that will require the use of "screen savers" to "save" these modern monitors.....

if memory serves me right... screen savers were meant for old/ancient CRT type monitors.....
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Heater
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Re: Running Windows Screensavers

Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:02 pm

That is true.

But in the modern world screen savers provide something to display when the user locks his session and leaves the terminal un attended for a while.

Besides, screen savers are cultural artefacts. Art if you like. A relic of times gone by.

I was always partial to the hufo_tunnel. An OpenGL infinite tunnel thing.
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Re: Running Windows Screensavers

Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:43 pm

Dearest mods:

Could you please split off all the stuff about copyright nonsense into a new, separate thread? Thank you.

Suggested forum: Off Topic
Suggested thread title: Copyright nonsense

Again, thanks in advance. You do a great job!

P.S. Also, just in case you haven't gotten around to it yet, just a gentle reminder that you should also split off all the garbage of the form: You're dumb! You should either turn your monitor off or run X screensaver
to another thread.
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Re: Running Windows Screensavers

Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:10 pm

Heater wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:12 pm
Good manners costs nothing.
"When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite." --Winston S. Churchill.

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Re: Running Windows Screensavers

Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:17 pm

GlowInTheDark wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:43 pm
You should either turn your monitor off or run X screensaver
to another thread.
Not quite what I said way back near the beginning of the thread. My point (at the time) was questioning the point of faffing around getting a Windows screensaver running when a X screensaver is an "apt install" away. That aspect has been--at least partially--answered by the interest in simply figuring out how to do it. That is, an exercise in self education, which is certainly a good reason.

My interest in screensavers on Pis is mostly to prevent screen timeouts, since the original method went away, and that has now been superceded by the raspi-config parameter not to blank the screen after a set time. Others undoubtedly feel differently on this subject and I have no wish to impose my views on them as there is no "one true way" so far as I am concerned.

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Re: Running Windows Screensavers

Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:32 pm

I have no idea what you're talking about - nor any desire to learn (know).

But whatever it is, I'm sure we can all agree that it belongs in some other (presumably, split off) thread.
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Re: Running Windows Screensavers

Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:22 am

Given that copyright has been discussed ad nauseam all over any place related to software for decades now I find it amazing that so few are familiar with even the basics.
They keep moving the goal posts. ie Disney.
Those with the most money and lawyers wins.
Corporate capture of Courts and Legislation guarantees that.

So who does own the copyright of Flying Toasters?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/After_Dark_(software)
The cover artist of Jefferson Airplane , Thirty seconds over Winterland?
Seems to me someone's non copyrighted work was "borrowed".

If there was no original copyright does that put it in the public domain?
Sticking a clock face on the toaster means it is a copy of the original non protected cover art?

Hey, It is still around, Win and Mac, none for Pi's.
https://en.infinisys.co.jp/product/flyi ... ndex.shtml

Since I paid for it years ago can I still use it, even on a Pi?
Do those DLL's come under another license structure?
Legacy software that get "saved" from the dustbin of history fits in what legal arena?
If someone actually goes and dugs up games thrown into a landfill, who owns them?
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Re: Running Windows Screensavers

Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:40 am

Again, this isn't the place to discuss copyright..

But you seem to lack the most basic knowledge of the concept.
Something not being specifically given a copyright notice, doesn't mean it's public domain. Anything and everything created after the 18(?)th century is automatically copyright of the creator, no disclaimer or legal doctrine necessary.
For a work to be in the public domain, the copyright holder must publicly announce their forfeiture of all rights.

Please stop discussing this here and go read actual legal copyright law. The documents are available for the public.
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Re: Running Windows Screensavers

Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:58 am

Imperf3kt wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:40 am
Something not being specifically given a copyright notice, doesn't mean it's public domain. Anything and everything created after the 18(?)th century is automatically copyright of the creator, no disclaimer or legal doctrine necessary.
The first part of that is correct, *now*. It didn't used to be. Quite a bit of the original Bell Labs unix code is in the public domain because nobody bothered to put copyright notices on it. That came out when AT&T sued the University of California...and lost. The change to automatic copyright even with no notice was--IIRC--part of the US copyright act of 1976. That was done, in part, in anticipation of the Berne convention. In other words, it's quite recent, at least in the US.

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Re: Running Windows Screensavers

Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:30 am

Again, this isn't the place to discuss copyright..
I didn't bring up the copyright issue, but I may be using the term incorrectly.

The issue was are we allowed to use old Windows Screensavers on Pi's?

The cover art was on a 1973 Album, predating the 1976 legislation.
Was that legislation retrospective?
For a work to be in the public domain, the copyright holder must publicly announce their forfeiture of all rights.
Artwork comes under copyright?
I remember the Lawsuit around the After Dark Flying Toasters.
Please stop discussing this here and go read actual legal copyright law. The documents are available for the public.
Oz Act
10AB Non‑infringing copy of a computer program

A copy of a computer program is a non‑infringing copy only if:

(a) it is made in a qualifying country; and

(b) its making did not constitute an infringement of any copyright in a work under a law of that country.
Division 3—Acts not constituting infringements of copyright in works

40 Fair dealing for purpose of research or study

(1) A fair dealing with a literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work, or with an adaptation of a literary, dramatic or musical work, for the purpose of research or study does not constitute an infringement of the copyright in the work.
Seems to me we can "study" the original Cover art but not copy the later made software.
At quick glance, it also seems to me the original artist got ripped off and so did Jefferson Airship.

So can we use Windows screensavers or not?
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Re: Running Windows Screensavers

Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:01 am

IANAL TINLA applies.
Nobody here knows for sure, you'll have to hire a lawyer most likely.

If you're concerned, send an email to Microsoft about the situation and let them deal with it.
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Re: Running Windows Screensavers

Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:51 am

you'll have to hire a lawyer most likely.
Been there, done that, paid money, got no result.
Not impressed with the legal system.

That's why I know my way around legislation.
Edward the Third- 1351- the right to jury trial of people from your neighborhood.
Let them decide.

Still worth some time learning to code a screen saver for a Pi.
Just have to use designs over 75/95 years old?
Grandma's Flipside toaster?
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Re: Running Windows Screensavers

Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:11 am

Imperf3kt wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:01 am
Nobody here knows for sure, you'll have to hire a lawyer most likely.
There is a dirty secret hiding there. The lawyers don't know either. If they did opposing teams would not have to argue their case to a judge/jury for a decision.

See recent Oracle vs Google. Or SCO vs Linux. Or AT&T vs Berkeley. Etc, etc, etc.
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