mistofeles
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:31 am

Something new

Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:42 am

It would be great to have some semi-permanent memory on board RasPi. Either NOVA-RAM, or FRAM.

Why ?
Many RasPi is used for data collection.
New large SD-cards do not take but about 2000 R/W cycles.
Using SD card for data collection destroys the card in a year or even some months.
Collecting data solely to TMPFS on RAM does not work, if there is possibility for electricity dropdowns.
Thats why I collect to RAM 24h and append the data to SD by midnight. This way only one day gets lost of the data.
The best way would be to collect the data to a semi-permanen memory and move it to SD when the memory gets full.

An IIC FRAM FM24CL26 is so small 8 pin chip that it should find space on RaspberriPi board.
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35 years with computers and still here !

scotty101
Posts: 2547
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:03 pm

Re: Something new

Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:09 am

mistofeles wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:42 am
An IIC FRAM FM24CL26 is so small 8 pin chip that it should find space on RaspberriPi board.
Every component added increases the cost of the Pi. Yes you might want this chip but what percentage of the over 15 millions Pi's sold would benefit from it?
Just add it yourself if you need it.
Electronic and Computer Engineer
Pi Interests: Home Automation, IOT, Python and Tkinter

SteveSpencer
Posts: 314
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 9:19 am
Location: Nottingham, UK

Re: Something new

Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:15 am

While you (and many others) have a good use-case for this, it is not generally applicable to all RPi models.
Redesigning the PCBs to fit this chip isn't simply a case of finding space. You also have to route power, ground and IIC signals.
Why push up the price point for hardware that isn't going to be used by significant numbers of users?

It wouldn't be economic to do so, given that you can buy a module (for example, Adafruit do IIC and SPI ones, eBay has listings, not to mention AliExpress) and connect it yourself. Admittedly, the module is probably the same size (or slightly larger?) than a Pi Zero (be it regular, W, or WH).

Maybe someone will design a shim or pHAT that does this.
Steve S
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W. H. Heydt
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Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: Something new

Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:55 pm

The usual solution to the OPs problem is to use some form of USB-connected storage, which could be a flash drive, an HDD, an SSD, or even a network connected system or storage device. If he *really* wants on board storage he could switch to using a CM or CM3, though those SoMs only have 4GB and it's the same basic tech as the SD cards. If 4GB isn't enough, there is the NEC CM3 16GB module. Another alternative would be a CM3L with whatever sort of storage he wants on the carrier board.

If the OP wants to stick with vanilla Pis running off the "internal" SD card, then using industrial grade cards and setting up a regular replacement schedule would probably be the method of choice.

B.Goode
Posts: 4919
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Location: UK

Re: Something new

Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:46 pm

It would be great to have some semi-permanent memory on board RasPi.
A note of disagreement here.

Having no non-volatile memory (modulo a small handful of OTP bits) is ideal for support and troubleshooting. It means that every machine is, prior to power-on, always in the same factory-fresh condition. Nothing to reset; nowhere for malware to hide.

jahboater
Posts: 2134
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:38 pm

Re: Something new

Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:25 pm

B.Goode wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:46 pm
It would be great to have some semi-permanent memory on board RasPi.
A note of disagreement here.

Having no non-volatile memory (modulo a small handful of OTP bits) is ideal for support and troubleshooting. It means that every machine is, prior to power-on, always in the same factory-fresh condition. Nothing to reset; nowhere for malware to hide.
+1
I seriously hope no "regular" Pi model ever has on-board flash memory.

Use a decent USB connected enterprise class SSD.

mistofeles
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:31 am

Re: Something new

Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:35 pm

Okay, it seems that there is so many voices against changes that I drop the case.
Btw: having data on a IIC-card doesn't make it dangerous, even if you reset your device. No nirmal OS runs software from IIC.
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35 years with computers and still here !

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 7903
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: Something new

Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:15 pm

mistofeles wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:35 pm
Okay, it seems that there is so many voices against changes that I drop the case.
Btw: having data on a IIC-card doesn't make it dangerous, even if you reset your device. No nirmal OS runs software from IIC.
Define "normal". If Linux can see it as part of the file system, it can run software stored there. If Linux can't see it as part of the file system, how do you propose writing data there?

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Ronaldlees
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Re: Something new

Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:29 pm

B.Goode wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:46 pm
It would be great to have some semi-permanent memory on board RasPi.
A note of disagreement here.

Having no non-volatile memory (modulo a small handful of OTP bits) is ideal for support and troubleshooting. It means that every machine is, prior to power-on, always in the same factory-fresh condition. Nothing to reset; nowhere for malware to hide.
Triple dittos on that one. Another SBC I have requires me to drag out the serial cable once in a while because the onboard memory has hiccupped. (Much more hassle than just putting the uSD into another machine and re-imaging it). And malware? Yup.
I am The Umbrella Man

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fruitoftheloom
Posts: 15697
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:40 pm
Location: Bognor Regis UK

Re: Something new

Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:40 pm

mistofeles wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:42 am
It would be great to have some semi-permanent memory on board RasPi. Either NOVA-RAM, or FRAM.

Why ?
Many RasPi is used for data collection.
New large SD-cards do not take but about 2000 R/W cycles.
Using SD card for data collection destroys the card in a year or even some months.
Collecting data solely to TMPFS on RAM does not work, if there is possibility for electricity dropdowns.
Thats why I collect to RAM 24h and append the data to SD by midnight. This way only one day gets lost of the data.
The best way would be to collect the data to a semi-permanen memory and move it to SD when the memory gets full.

An IIC FRAM FM24CL26 is so small 8 pin chip that it should find space on RaspberriPi board.

There is nothing stopping you creating your own modified SBC, Element14 will sell you 5,000:

https://www.element14.com/community/doc ... on-service
My only "PC" is an Asus ChromeBit running ChromeOS, cloudcentric at its best !
Rockchip Quad-Core RK3288C ARM32 SoC as used in ASUS Chromebook C201 & Chromebook Flip C100PA as well as the Tinker SBC.
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hippy
Posts: 2554
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:34 pm
Location: UK

Re: Something new

Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:03 pm

jahboater wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:25 pm
I seriously hope no "regular" Pi model ever has on-board flash memory.
I wouldn't have a problem if it does; providing booting from an SD Card takes precedence.

I would not be adverse to adding anything to a Pi if it did not push the RRP up but it almost certainly would and I don't think the 'lowest cost' target for a Pi should be compromised for what would only benefit a few.

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