jamesh
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Re: Windows CE

Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:00 am

lucaspirolla wrote:Any news on Windows CE 7 working on RPi???
No one from the Foundation is working on this (no interest whatsoever), so any ports will be community driven.
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Re: Windows CE

Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:39 am

dboling wrote:>> prepping the SD Card

I created a Linux image following the instructions and booted the image to make sure everything was fine.

Then you simply copy the nk.nb0 over to the SD card renaming it kernel.img. You will have to be careful on how you set up the relationship between the ROMBASE value and the NK RAMIMAGE section. I never got it completely write so I have a program that patches the offset in the initial jump field at the beginning of the nk.nb0 file.

Doug
Which Linux image did you use? I've got as far as compiling a WEC 7 image with platform builder, so I'd like to try the next step but the linux images I try don't work like you've described (Don't have a kernal.img I can swap out)

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Re: Windows CE

Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:42 am

jamesh wrote:
lucaspirolla wrote:Any news on Windows CE 7 working on RPi???
No one from the Foundation is working on this (no interest whatsoever), so any ports will be community driven.
yes, I was wondering if someone from the community is working on it... do you know of anybody? any success?

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Re: Windows CE

Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:51 am

1. Will it be free?
2. Which version it would be?
3. On what date it would be released?

- Riebulka from Lithuania :D

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Re: Windows CE

Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:13 am

Riebulka wrote:1. Will it be free?
2. Which version it would be?
3. On what date it would be released?

- Riebulka from Lithuania :D
  • 1) Its Microsofts OS, what do you think? but see below
    2) No version
    3) Never.
Windows CE on PI isn't a serious proposition, and it would be illegal to spread it, even if it ever comes to be.

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Re: Windows CE

Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:28 pm

I don't think that's true , you should be able to relicense it.
I mean , how else am i allowed to use my Car navigation
system ?

ghans

EDIT: typo
Last edited by ghans on Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Windows CE

Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:39 pm

Only a large company would have the finances to buy a license, and then has to sell enough copies to recover the costs. I see several problems in that scenario.

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Re: Windows CE

Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:55 pm

I was just poking at the "illegal" bit .. and
that no version of CE could ever run on a Pi . . :D

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Re: Windows CE

Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:24 am

it would be illegal to port a version of WinCE to PI, then distribute it freely (assuming its done unlicensed, but thats no a difficult assumption to make). but yes, that doesn't mean that nobody will attempt it. There are plenty of unlicensed hacked copies of the real windows too after all.

And as for car navigation devices, included in their price is the license fee for WinCE and you cant extract WinCE from that device and run it on one without, so its not a valid example, compared to the situation with the PI/

And I know about "turing completeness" thus I know that in principle any computer can run any OS, as any (turing complete) computer can emulate any other (given enough time and storage facilities), so I for one would never claim that "computer X cannot run software Y" (in a theoretical sense).
The practicality (and legality) of it is a completely different story though.

Unless some billionaire decides to buy unlimited licenses for WinCE on PI, and then ports WinCE to the PI, and then distributes it for free, I doubt a legal copy of WinCE will become available for free for the PI, and questions like the one asked by Riebulka should be answered exactly as I did, no it won't, and cannot, (legally) be released for free .

Also, I doubt WinCE it would be welcomed by the RFP even if it did became available, as Raspbian is their focused OS, and again, spreading WinCE would be illegal.

P.S. all this is simply my private opinion, not the opinion of the RPF.

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Re: Windows CE

Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:43 am


by mahjongg » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:24 am
it would be illegal to port a version of WinCE to PI, then distribute it freely (assuming its done unlicensed, but thats no a difficult assumption to make). but yes, that doesn't mean that nobody will attempt it. There are plenty of unlicensed hacked copies of the real windows too after all.

And as for car navigation devices, included in their price is the license fee for WinCE and you cant extract WinCE from that device and run it on one without, so its not a valid example, compared to the situation with the PI/

And I know about "turing completeness" thus I know that in principle any computer can run any OS, as any (turing complete) computer can emulate any other (given enough time and storage facilities), so I for one would never claim that "computer X cannot run software Y" (in a theoretical sense).
The practicality (and legality) of it is a completely different story though.

Unless some billionaire decides to buy unlimited licenses for WinCE on PI, and then ports WinCE to the PI, and then distributes it for free, I doubt a legal copy of WinCE will become available for free for the PI, and questions like the one asked by Riebulka should be answered exactly as I did, no it won't, and cannot, (legally) be released for free .

Also, I doubt WinCE it would be welcomed by the RFP even if it did became available, as Raspbian is their focused OS, and again, spreading WinCE would be illegal.

P.S. all this is simply my private opinion, not the opinion of the RPF.





If all the above is your view then why are you posting it without justifying.. and saying "WinCE will not be accepted in RPF".

Please first get to know what is free and what is not.. and what is legal and not.. Please verify everything before posting it in..

BSP is not WinCE Kernel, Microsoft licenses the Kernel not the BSP. WinCE BSP anybody can write and distribute.

If someone wants to use WinCE on Raspberi Pi, do you have problem?. If you don't like then better ask RPF to add a legal notice not to use WinCE on Raspberry Pi board.

We should be thankful to Doug(dboling), for his efforts and contribution to Raspberry Pi community, trying to add one more OS to this community supported board.

Other low cost Boards like beagleboard,Beaglebone, iMx-QSB, already have WinCE OS, and you have any idea how much BSP venders charges for their BSP? minimum $500, with NDA.
So, don't you think we should be thankful to Doug, as he is trying to provide a WinCE BSP for this cool board for FREE...

You might be aware of cubieboard, it is more powerful than Raspberry Pi, and cost wise only $15 difference, and upcoming Allwinner A10 EOMA-68 Card (http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/ ) is just $15, and it is more powerful than Pi. So if I am a new developer, I would go for these boards, if I have to work on linux. Unfortunately these boards don't have WinCE for now.
Dont you think WinCE will be cool edition to Raspberi Pi community.
At last, Thank you Doug for your efforts, I am excited, and will be waiting for you update on Windows CE for Raspberi-Pi. Please update us whenever KITL and eboot is working...

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Re: Windows CE

Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:07 am

In my opinion whilst I am happy to say well done to developers, lets face it WinCE is a "dead" Operating System http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_CE

Maybe this is why we see so many cheap Windows CE devices on Ebay ie SatNavs £30.00, maybe M$ are just happy to still get revenue on a 16 year old O/S

Initial release 16 November 1996; 16 years ago
Latest stable release 7.0 / 1 March 2011; 2 years ago


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Built-in-4GB- ... 0812283606


If Windows Phone 7 could be ported (the last of the CE line) then I may consider using http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Phone_7

Though the newer NT Kernel based Windows 8 Phone would be great......

I understand and appreciate all the pros and cons, but having used various CE devices, like Android they perform better on Touch Screen
I will always assume you are running Raspbian for desktop and Raspbmc for XMBC !

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Re: Windows CE

Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:30 am

dasco wrote:
If all the above is your view then why are you posting it without justifying.. and saying "WinCE will not be accepted in RPF".

Please first get to know what is free and what is not.. and what is legal and not.. Please verify everything before posting it in..

BSP is not WinCE Kernel, Microsoft licenses the Kernel not the BSP. WinCE BSP anybody can write and distribute.

If someone wants to use WinCE on Raspberi Pi, do you have problem?. If you don't like then better ask RPF to add a legal notice not to use WinCE on Raspberry Pi board.

We should be thankful to Doug(dboling), for his efforts and contribution to Raspberry Pi community, trying to add one more OS to this community supported board.

Other low cost Boards like beagleboard,Beaglebone, iMx-QSB, already have WinCE OS, and you have any idea how much BSP venders charges for their BSP? minimum $500, with NDA.
So, don't you think we should be thankful to Doug, as he is trying to provide a WinCE BSP for this cool board for FREE...

You might be aware of cubieboard, it is more powerful than Raspberry Pi, and cost wise only $15 difference, and upcoming Allwinner A10 EOMA-68 Card (http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/ ) is just $15, and it is more powerful than Pi. So if I am a new developer, I would go for these boards, if I have to work on linux. Unfortunately these boards don't have WinCE for now.
Dont you think WinCE will be cool edition to Raspberi Pi community.
At last, Thank you Doug for your efforts, I am excited, and will be waiting for you update on Windows CE for Raspberi-Pi. Please update us whenever KITL and eboot is working...
Mahjongg does know what he is talking about, whether his views are RPF or not. And he is pretty much on the button with his statements. CE requires a licence- it would also require a load of work to get is working. The RPF will not be doing that work, but anyone else is more than welcome. Just be ready for MS to send in the lawyers if you distribute the Kernel (without which its pretty much useless) it without paying them.

And enough with the Cubieboard adverts. Allwinner chips are not as good as people make out.

And no, I don't think CE brings anything to the Raspi party at all. As Spid says, it's a dead OS.
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Re: Windows CE

Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:02 am

Mentioning Allwinner Chipset with the Mali400 GPU, the hype overshadows the reality, even the new Rikomagic with the RK3066 Dual Core & Quad Core ARM still use the Mali Grapics which were never intended for large large screens. I have had 2 Rikomagics and would not buy another !

Mentioning screens I have found that the Pi Broadcom GPU seems best on 19" Widescreen with most Distro's, I would not like to see CE on that !!!
I will always assume you are running Raspbian for desktop and Raspbmc for XMBC !

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Re: Windows CE

Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:51 am

hey everybody calm down. Stop with "this OS is better, this other is not", or let's change de subject to "my first flame war on the internet"....

The RPi can be used on a LOT of applications different from the one you're thinking when replying to this post.

The app I want to run on the RPi, for example, only runs on the well stablished WinCE OS. The user will not even get in touch with the OS, only the application. And there's no way this application will be ported to *nix, so my only option is to have WinCE running on the RPi.

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Re: Windows CE

Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:18 pm

For that reason, and that reason only, Windows CE on Pi is viable. You have an application that works on CE and you are willing to pay the licensing costs.

However that is probably not the case for most people that read this topic, and for that reason the limitations have to be spelled out. It will never be free, it will probably not ever be easy to install, and it wont play WoW.

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Re: Windows CE

Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:40 pm

rurwin wrote:For that reason, and that reason only, Windows CE on Pi is viable. You have an application that works on CE and you are willing to pay the licensing costs.

However that is probably not the case for most people that read this topic, and for that reason the limitations have to be spelled out. It will never be free, it will probably not ever be easy to install, and it wont play WoW.
Exactly. Thank you.

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Re: Windows CE

Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:44 pm

lucaspirolla wrote:hey everybody calm down. Stop with "this OS is better, this other is not", or let's change de subject to "my first flame war on the internet"....

The RPi can be used on a LOT of applications different from the one you're thinking when replying to this post.

The app I want to run on the RPi, for example, only runs on the well stablished WinCE OS. The user will not even get in touch with the OS, only the application. And there's no way this application will be ported to *nix, so my only option is to have WinCE running on the RPi.
It's the mods job to look after things here. And I've not seen any flaming/OS wars in this thread.

I fear you are going to be out of luck if your app only works on CE, as I cannot see it ever working well enough to be useful, if at all, on the Raspi. It would be a much quicker and easier job to port the app to Linux.

Although WindowsCE is well established, it's market penetration is rather low now, at around 0.05%, and will only get smaller. http://www.netmarketshare.com/operating ... pcustomd=1
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Re: Windows CE

Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:59 pm

jamesh wrote:It's the mods job to look after things here. And I've not seen any flaming/OS wars in this thread.

I fear you are going to be out of luck if your app only works on CE, as I cannot see it ever working well enough to be useful, if at all, on the Raspi. It would be a much quicker and easier job to port the app to Linux.

Although WindowsCE is well established, it's market penetration is rather low now, at around 0.05%, and will only get smaller. http://www.netmarketshare.com/operating ... pcustomd=1
Dear jamesh,

You don't know the size of the application to say it's easier to port it to Linux when compared to develop a BSP to WinCE.

this "market penetration" chart you sent means just nothing when I'm talking of a very specific niche of market, of only one program running on an embedded system. Once again, you're arguing without the needed background, and putting WinCE down again for nothing. Read again rurwin's response, and try to give it some thought.

Best regards
Pirolla

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Re: Windows CE

Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:34 pm

lucaspirolla wrote:
jamesh wrote:It's the mods job to look after things here. And I've not seen any flaming/OS wars in this thread.

I fear you are going to be out of luck if your app only works on CE, as I cannot see it ever working well enough to be useful, if at all, on the Raspi. It would be a much quicker and easier job to port the app to Linux.

Although WindowsCE is well established, it's market penetration is rather low now, at around 0.05%, and will only get smaller. http://www.netmarketshare.com/operating ... pcustomd=1
Dear jamesh,

You don't know the size of the application to say it's easier to port it to Linux when compared to develop a BSP to WinCE.

this "market penetration" chart you sent means just nothing when I'm talking of a very specific niche of market, of only one program running on an embedded system. Once again, you're arguing without the needed background, and putting WinCE down again for nothing. Read again rurwin's response, and try to give it some thought.

Best regards
Pirolla
I am not putting WinCE down - it's an old embedded OS with little market penetration - that's a fact, and that's all I've said.

But I would be willing to put on a small bet that getting the app to work in Linux will be less work than trying to get CE working on a Raspi. But I don't know the exact requirements

For example, depending on what you app does, you will need: Driver for SD card, Driver for USB (for keyboard, disk), driver for display, driver for ethernet, driver for GPIO (if your app requires it)

All of these would probably need to be written from scratch, and the USB, especially, would be a hell of a job if you want a decent feature set. Look at the time spent trying to get it 100% on the Linux builds!

So, I'm afraid that if you are relying on a WindowsCE build for the Raspi, you will be waiting a long time. I'm happy to be proved wrong though. Just don't forget the licence fees. And since there appear to be about 10 people who have expressed an interested worldwide (so far), there won't be a lot of interest in actually doing the work.

Note that Android has had loads of requests, and loads of people working on it, and it's still not working fully. And that's based on the existing Linux devices drivers.
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Re: Windows CE

Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:03 am

Hello Every one calm down, My intention [reply to mahjong] was to say, if someone is doing efforts to bring something new to raspberry pi community, we should not have any problem. And I am not advocating on WinCE, and saying Linux is not good or WinCE is super, or WinCE is OLD etc. Each OS fits its place somewhere, depending on the customer needs. We all here to learn something and contribute something to this community. So, what WinCE brings to community its not an issue here. Its about your choice, and I would love to have another option of OS like other boards from beagleboard, friendlyARM.
There are many people who wants to use WinCE for learning purposes. So, a cool board like Raspbery-Pi ($35), having an option of this OS, will be a great help for them.
Lets contribute and not criticize..

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Re: Windows CE

Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:40 am

dasco wrote:Hello Every one calm down, My intention [reply to mahjong] was to say, if someone is doing efforts to bring something new to raspberry pi community, we should not have any problem. And I am not advocating on WinCE, and saying Linux is not good or WinCE is super, or WinCE is OLD etc. Each OS fits its place somewhere, depending on the customer needs. We all here to learn something and contribute something to this community. So, what WinCE brings to community its not an issue here. Its about your choice, and I would love to have another option of OS like other boards from beagleboard, friendlyARM.
There are many people who wants to use WinCE for learning purposes. So, a cool board like Raspbery-Pi ($35), having an option of this OS, will be a great help for them.
Lets contribute and not criticize..
The problem still remains, WindowsCE is a (mostly) closed source OS where a licence fee needs to be paid to MS for each copy distributed. And I would also argue that CE has very little learning potential (rather like Android), except in the actual act of porting it. Which would be done by just a few people who had probably done it before...

There are already various Linux distros, RISCOS, Plan9, basic Android and some baremetal OS's to use. I dubious of the advantages of a closed source and old OS like CE would bring to the party.

But hey ho, if someone wants to put the effort in and prove me wrong they are more than welcome. Just be careful of those MS lawyers.
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Re: Windows CE

Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:55 am

I will always assume you are running Raspbian for desktop and Raspbmc for XMBC !

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Re: Windows CE

Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:57 am

One person saying "Is anyone porting <os> to the Pi?" and another person saying "I also think thats a great thing for the Pi!" does not make an OS.

Everything else is rhetoric.

Here's some facts:

* Anyone who wants to port CE to the Pi is welcome to do so.
* It will be complicated in many ways, more so than free software*** OS ports.
* It would garner a disproportionately small following compared to cost and effort.
* The community support for it on the likes of this forum will possibly consist more of "ok, whatever, if you are having problems, probably best just to port your app to <free software*** OS>", than "Ok, I'll buy WinCE and install it purely to help provide community support for it." (Which is often the case I see on here with free software).
* The people who have posted in this thread so far have provided very constructive advice.
* There is nothing stopping you - dive on in.

Here's some opinions:

* Don't bother.
* WinCE is old and dead, and no one gives a rats about it.
* The freetards and opensourcer life members** here really could care less about a Microsoft proprietary OS in particular.
* The chances of the app(s) in questions being harder to port to an existing free software*** OS on the Pi, than porting WInCE to the Pi are pretty slim, combined with coming up with the dollars, the developer(s), and whatever hurdles come up, I really can confidently say this basically just isn't going to happen.

** Thats a complement by the way :-P
*** In this context, I am talking about these OSes -> http://www.raspberrypi.org/downloads and others that run, or could run, on the Pi, with comparatively little work, that are freely available without monetary cost..

Kind regards,
Tony Hughes,
Noted Polemicist.

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Re: Windows CE

Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:06 pm

For me interest in WinCE on RPi is quite clear.

WinCE makes pretty much no sense for a regular end user (hence the low "market share"), but these things run mostly on WinCE / WinMobile. They're about 2000 pounds each.

Being able, in principle, to run WinCE on RPi means our existing internal apps (all in-house, .NET Compact FW-based, not really professional, some made for fun) will run on RPi. Which way isn't 2000 pounds each.

As a small company always trying to find clever ways to run IT, we'd actually love the ability to give it a go. We've played with various devices, including Android-based and Windows-based phones and tablets, and found out there is always something that just isn't quite right, a hardware restriction here, an OS restriction there, unable to prevent users from doing stupid things because the device is consumer-oriented etc.

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Re: Windows CE

Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:05 pm

GSerg wrote:For me interest in WinCE on RPi is quite clear.

WinCE makes pretty much no sense for a regular end user (hence the low "market share"), but these things run mostly on WinCE / WinMobile. They're about 2000 pounds each.

Being able, in principle, to run WinCE on RPi means our existing internal apps (all in-house, .NET Compact FW-based, not really professional, some made for fun) will run on RPi. Which way isn't 2000 pounds each.

As a small company always trying to find clever ways to run IT, we'd actually love the ability to give it a go. We've played with various devices, including Android-based and Windows-based phones and tablets, and found out there is always something that just isn't quite right, a hardware restriction here, an OS restriction there, unable to prevent users from doing stupid things because the device is consumer-oriented etc.
Good time to learn about programming on Linux?
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