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Re: Windows CE

Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:01 pm
by RareHare
jamesh wrote: What might not be so clear is translation of x86 in to Arm code. i.e. what emulators do, but doing it up front rather than at execute time. This was how FX!32 (X86->Alpha) sort of worked, except its translation was done on the fly, and it stored the results so it only had to do it once. It was also able to optimise the results somehow to improve performance from the brute forced translation. IIRC.
My gut feeling is that doing it will be a lot easier than many people think. It would not work for all applications, but it would work for many.

Re: Windows CE

Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 9:57 am
by Dubi
LeZandre wrote:None of them as good as iGO, nor any of them has updated maps.
100% agree with this statement.

WinCE on Pi will be nice, until that, this is the best I can do.

Image
Image

Cheap Wince GPS always came with a rubbish screen and I needed something visible in day light to put on my bike ;)

Re: Windows CE

Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:32 pm
by dboling
Everyone,

Sorry for the gaps in responding. I have a day job that keeps me busy. I also hesitate to jump into flame wars. Linux is fine, but so is Windows CE/ Compact. Each OS has its features and problems. As a real-time OS, CE could be quite useful on the Pi. There are countless projects that might be better suited to CE than Linux. This is not a diss of Linux, simply a statement of fact. There are also countless projects that would be better suited to Linux than CE.

As far as status, I’ve been stuck on writing a USB host controller driver for quite some time. That said, it works to the point of standard HID devices (keyboard/mouse) I’m still working on a bug with a 2.0 hub and multiple low speed devices on the hub. Unfortunately, this would be the standard configuration on a B model so I’ve yet to upload the driver to the Codeplex site (http://ceonpi.codeplex.com).

Concerning licensing. Yes, MS charges a license fee per kernel. However there is some sort of exception for students/hobbyists. I’M NO LAWYER so ping MS if you’re interested in redistributing a CE image. What can be distributed is the BSP. The OS can be freely downloaded from the MS website via the “Platform Builder” product. This includes the compilers, debuggers and tons of operating system source code that make up the CE build environment. So, while my mom may not have the ability to create a CE image, it’s a fairly straightforward task for anyone technical to do so for free.

If you’re wondering, the Embedded team at Microsoft knows about my little side project. They’re happy to see it progress but that’s the extent of their involvement.

It would be nice if folks who don’t know the facts about Windows CE not speculate on licensing, market share and other ‘facts’ specific to Windows CE. Most of the CE related comments I’ve read in this thread are simply FUD. Facts are better. As the saying goes: If you don’t have anything nice to say…

Doug

Re: Windows CE

Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:10 am
by jamesh
dboling wrote:Everyone,

Sorry for the gaps in responding. I have a day job that keeps me busy. I also hesitate to jump into flame wars. Linux is fine, but so is Windows CE/ Compact. Each OS has its features and problems. As a real-time OS, CE could be quite useful on the Pi. There are countless projects that might be better suited to CE than Linux. This is not a diss of Linux, simply a statement of fact. There are also countless projects that would be better suited to Linux than CE.

As far as status, I’ve been stuck on writing a USB host controller driver for quite some time. That said, it works to the point of standard HID devices (keyboard/mouse) I’m still working on a bug with a 2.0 hub and multiple low speed devices on the hub. Unfortunately, this would be the standard configuration on a B model so I’ve yet to upload the driver to the Codeplex site (http://ceonpi.codeplex.com).

Concerning licensing. Yes, MS charges a license fee per kernel. However there is some sort of exception for students/hobbyists. I’M NO LAWYER so ping MS if you’re interested in redistributing a CE image. What can be distributed is the BSP. The OS can be freely downloaded from the MS website via the “Platform Builder” product. This includes the compilers, debuggers and tons of operating system source code that make up the CE build environment. So, while my mom may not have the ability to create a CE image, it’s a fairly straightforward task for anyone technical to do so for free.

If you’re wondering, the Embedded team at Microsoft knows about my little side project. They’re happy to see it progress but that’s the extent of their involvement.

It would be nice if folks who don’t know the facts about Windows CE not speculate on licensing, market share and other ‘facts’ specific to Windows CE. Most of the CE related comments I’ve read in this thread are simply FUD. Facts are better. As the saying goes: If you don’t have anything nice to say…

Doug
If you insist on facts, please be more specific than "However there is some sort of exception for students/hobbyists." - a statement that seems a little short in the fact department. If anyone does know the specific of this, please post them here.

Please continue with your porting efforts. You may find the fairly recent Linux USB driver changes of use in your USB efforts.

I wonder why MS are watching but not helping. Seems a little short sighted/mean spirited. Perhaps they are only fans of community development when they get a licence fee at the end of it ;-)

Re: Windows CE

Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:40 pm
by rurwin
The rules are here: http://download.microsoft.com/download/ ... 0FINAL.pdf

I am not a lawyer, but I've spent time at Groklaw. As I understand that license then...
You need a valid license for Visual Studio. I understand there are student and maybe hobbyist licenses for that. I don't know if they license the features that will be needed for Windows 7 Compact.
You can create a Windows CE 7 runtime image and use it yourself. You can install and distribute up to two images on hardware provided those are not general purpose computers. You can distribute runtime images to other MS licensees.
All such runtimes must only be used for non-commercial purposes, which means they must not be used in the course of a business (educational uses* excepted), or as part of a commercial product or used to create a commercial product.

As I understand it then, it is possible for hobbyists to use it and distribute it. There may be some hoops to jump through in that everyone who uses it has to be a licensee capable of at least installing a runtime image onto hardware. There may be other licensing costs for the supporting technologies even if all you do is to install a runtime and you never use them.

There will be another license for companies and people that require to make commercial use of it.

----
* Commercial is defined as bringing profit, but "the payment of tuition to the school or receipt of a salary by the instructor does not constitute financial consideration" ie you can use it as equipment in class but any other use would be under the above rules. For example, if a student project resulted in a device for taking the register, that would be non-commercial, but if the school used it for such, that would be commercial.

Re: Windows CE

Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 7:46 pm
by DougieLawson
rurwin wrote:You can install and distribute up to two images on hardware provided those are not general purpose computers.
So that's the crux, the Raspberry Pi is, clearly, a general purpose computer.

Re: Windows CE

Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:13 pm
by rurwin
But that's only important if you want to distribute the hardware with Windows CE already installed, and you can only do that twice anyway.

Re: Windows CE

Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:34 pm
by dboling
Thanks for looking up the license. There are other ways to get the OS as well such as through Microsoft's Spark program. The point being, its legal for an individual to build and install Windows CE on a Raspberry Pi.

As for the Pi being a general purpose computer, I hold it isn't in the way MS sees a general purpose computer. In any case, the resulting Pi/CE combination wouldn't typically be used in a general purpose way, it would be used as an embedded system, and that is well within the license.

As far as MS not helping me with the port, I wouldn't expect them to. The only help they could give would be to assign an engineer to the project. Does Red Hat provide engineering resources to help every person who wants to port their flavor of Linux to whatever hardware they want? I expect not.

Re: Windows CE

Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 9:02 am
by jamesh
dboling wrote:Thanks for looking up the license. There are other ways to get the OS as well such as through Microsoft's Spark program. The point being, its legal for an individual to build and install Windows CE on a Raspberry Pi.

As for the Pi being a general purpose computer, I hold it isn't in the way MS sees a general purpose computer. In any case, the resulting Pi/CE combination wouldn't typically be used in a general purpose way, it would be used as an embedded system, and that is well within the license.

As far as MS not helping me with the port, I wouldn't expect them to. The only help they could give would be to assign an engineer to the project. Does Red Hat provide engineering resources to help every person who wants to port their flavor of Linux to whatever hardware they want? I expect not.
Actually, the PI is by all definitions a general purpose computer.

But why wouldn't MS want a licence fee if it CE was used in am embedded device? After all, it's an embedded OS.

It's a bit vague to me.

Re: Windows CE

Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 9:51 am
by bbking
Guys, whats the point in moaning about the few dollars MS wants to collect as a license fee for CE?
The foundation offers the MPEG2 and VC-1 codes commercially as well and there is no whining about that at all.
As I see it: IF there will be ever a full functional CE image thanks to dboling, the license could be just collected in the same manner like for the two codecs.
IF someone doesn't need CE, please just ignore this thread. Period.

Re: Windows CE

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:13 pm
by lucaspirolla
So, are there any news with the port development?

best regards
Lucas

Re: Windows CE

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:18 pm
by ideeman1994
Didn't see anything on the development page... Maybe somebody else has news?

Re: Windows CE

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:19 pm
by DougieLawson
lucaspirolla wrote:So, are there any news with the port development?

best regards
Lucas
Have you started doing it yet? Because I can't see why anyone would want to waste their time on anything so futile.

There's plenty of fully functional operating systems (and variations on that theme) for the RPi, it continues to be a mystery why folks keep bringing up WinCE and Android as alternatives.

Re: Windows CE

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:25 pm
by lucaspirolla
ok, so anyone besides this guy who's clearly not interested on it, are there any news on the port project?

Re: Windows CE

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:30 pm
by ghans
This thread is for rants and flaming :lol: .. if you want to discuss a WinCE port , look here :

http://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewt ... 9&p=437749

Note that the OP of that thread hasn't been online for 4 months.

ghans

Re: Windows CE

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:39 am
by dasco
Finally Happy to see Windows on RPI.
http://www.raspberrypi.org/raspberry-pi-2-on-sale/

Re: Windows CE

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:04 am
by rurwin
I am happy that you are happy.

It is probably apposite to point out that Windows On Devices is even more limited (at the moment) than Windows CE would have been. It currently doesn't even support a screen. When the RaspPi port is complete it will only be Windows RT at best. It will probably never be programmable on the RaspPi and it is still a non-commercial license only. Every user needs a license from Microsoft and no commercial license seems to be available yet. I'm sure there will be one eventually, but we don't know the cost.

There is a lot that you can do with such a device, and I'm sure they're the sort of things that you are interested in, but I can't help thinking (personally) that proclaiming that it runs Windows 10 is rather over-stating the facts.

Re: Windows CE

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:01 pm
by Joe Schmoe
but I can't help thinking (personally) that proclaiming that it runs Windows 10 is rather over-stating the facts.
Masterly British understatement, that.

Its just marketing; they are hoping that people will see "it runs Windows" and be so excited by that, that the details (that it is just a "DOS") won't matter.

Re: Windows CE

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:03 pm
by hippy
rurwin wrote:I can't help thinking (personally) that proclaiming that it runs Windows 10 is rather over-stating the facts.
I absolutely agree. What "Runs Window 10" means and what people imagine that means seem to be very different things.

That's not helped by some big media reporting "Microsoft announced Monday that it will make its new desktop operating system, Windows 10, available free later this year to users of Raspberry Pi 2".

http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2015 ... 0/22753973
http://techcrunch.com/2015/02/02/window ... or-pi-devs

But, to be honest, we just don't know what "Runs Windows 10" really means yet. Maybe we will be as surprised by what is delivered as we were when the Pi 2 was announced.

Re: Windows CE

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 4:02 am
by rtek1000
Hello,

I would like to use RPi with Windows CE 6.0

Many HMI run Windows 6.0

I am needing a board to replace another board (Marvel PXA270 300MHz) that works with Windows CE 6.0

I saw that Beaglebone Black works with Windows CE 6.0

Friendlyarm 6410 board works with Windows CE 6.0

Even the manufacturers of Raspberry Pi 3 is not able to show how to use this RPi3b for use with Windows CE 6.0?

Raspberry Pi is for amateur use only?

Re: Windows CE

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 8:25 am
by fruitoftheloom
rtek1000 wrote:Hello,

I would like to use RPi with Windows CE 6.0

Many HMI run Windows 6.0

I am needing a board to replace another board (Marvel PXA270 300MHz) that works with Windows CE 6.0

I saw that Beaglebone Black works with Windows CE 6.0

Friendlyarm 6410 board works with Windows CE 6.0

Even the manufacturers of Raspberry Pi 3 is not able to show how to use this RPi3b for use with Windows CE 6.0?

Raspberry Pi is for amateur use only?
The Raspberry Pi was conceived for Education and Learning and for the RPF to spend time and money on an Operating System which is rapidly being replaced is not a good use of resources, despite various attempts there has never been a stable release of CE:

Windows Embedded CE 6.0 is End of Life:
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/lif ... r=FilterNO

Windows Embedded Compact 7 becomes End of Life at end of this year:
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/lif ... r=FilterNO

Whilst Windows Embedded Compact 2013 becomes End of Life in 2 years:
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/lif ... r=FilterNO


The reason other SBC's support CE is because they have an ARM CPU and a GPU, the Raspberry Pi is a GPU with an ARM CPU attached so it is harder to code the boot sequence.....

Anyway you have solved your issue by buying a BeagleBoard: https://bbblackwince6bsp.codeplex.com

.

Re: Windows CE

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 8:25 am
by DougieLawson

Re: Windows CE

Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 8:56 am
by riahc3
@jamesh There is a huge difference between embedded, industrial, and mobile devices. They cannot be in any way, shape or form compared. CE has a huge market share in industrial devices where Linux struggles to due vendor support.

The only hurdle seen is that there is no USB host driver.

That being said: You CAN remote into Windows CE running on Pi and use that (since LAN is working)