joaodriessen
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Full windows 10 experience on armv8 a possibility

Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:42 am

Various media outlets reporting on Microsoft partnership with Qualcomm to release an arm version of windows 10 with desktop & apps support

http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/7/13866 ... t-qualcomm

Does this pave the way for a full windows desktop experience on the raspberry pi (3)?

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Full windows 10 experience on armv8 a possibility

Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:50 am

joaodriessen wrote:Various media outlets reporting on Microsoft partnership with Qualcomm to release an arm version of windows 10 with desktop & apps support

http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/7/13866 ... t-qualcomm

Does this pave the way for a full windows desktop experience on the raspberry pi (3)?
Very unlikely, the Architecture of most ARM SBC's is completely different to the Broadcom SoC of the Raspberry Pi, even Windows 10 IoT Core is not fully functioning after 2 years..
The information is out there....you just have to let it in.

My other Linux machine is a ChromeBox

mikerr
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Re: Full windows 10 experience on armv8 a possibility

Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:00 am

Full desktop Microsoft Windows already exists on ARM in the form of Windows RT as used in original Surface RT tablets...
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joaodriessen
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Re: Full windows 10 experience on armv8 a possibility

Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:28 am

mikerr wrote:Full desktop Microsoft Windows already exists on ARM in the form of Windows RT as used in original Surface RT tablets...
sure, but didn't really support running desktop apps.

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Re: Full windows 10 experience on armv8 a possibility

Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:33 am

The desktop was present - just not available to 3rd party apps

though was later jailbroken to allow it - you could run some unchanged .net apps to run on it,
others after a recompile:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthr ... ?t=2092348
there is also an x86 emulator...

I see this as building upon that with a wine-like layer for api calls and x86 emulation for the rest.
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Koeshi
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Re: Full windows 10 experience on armv8 a possibility

Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:36 pm

If this results in decent ARM based laptops that are available without Windows pre-installed then I am interested. Otherwise I don't care.

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bensimmo
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Re: Full windows 10 experience on armv8 a possibility

Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:07 pm

I'm all for cheap arm based tablet/tab books/laptops with Win10 on, not base on Intel Atom.
Opens up a raft of gaming machine options too.

As for the Pi, It's only just capable of running Pixel and Chromeium. Pixel is feature nuked and lacks a lot of ease of use and accessibility. If the did managed to squeeze a feature rich desktop Windows10 and Edge onto the Pi2/3, that would be some doing. They do have a start on the core.

Koeshi
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Re: Full windows 10 experience on armv8 a possibility

Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:30 pm

bensimmo wrote:I'm all for cheap arm based tablet/tab books/laptops with Win10 on, not base on Intel Atom.
Opens up a raft of gaming machine options too.

As for the Pi, It's only just capable of running Pixel and Chromeium. Pixel is feature nuked and lacks a lot of ease of use and accessibility. If the did managed to squeeze a feature rich desktop Windows10 and Edge onto the Pi2/3, that would be some doing. They do have a start on the core.
Win10 uses about as much resources at boot with nothing opened as the Pi3 offers in total so that "feature rich desktop" would be all you get and no further.

Also while I am not an expert in these matters I am fairly certain that this will not open up gaming, Windows is not the only thing about wintel machines that sees them used for gaming. You would still need an x86 emulator which on top of the already less powerful than intel, ARM cores means that you are not going to be playing anything current gen.

Martin Frezman
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Re: Full windows 10 experience on armv8 a possibility

Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:54 pm

Exactly.

This is the point in the narrative where once again we point out that even if you could get Windows running on the Pi (or any other ARM platform - i.e., any other non-x86 platform), it wouldn't do you any good because none of your existing Windows software will run. I.e., the point of Windows is not Windows per se, but rather it is the ability to run your existing (compiled for x86 and not available in source code form) software.
If this post appears in the wrong forums category, my apologies.

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solar3000
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Re: Full windows 10 experience on armv8 a possibility

Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:07 pm

They did not mention pi anywhere.
Also, the snapdragon is way more powerful than the pi's broadcom. Even in custom OS like raspbian, its still very lagging and slow at a low video res of 480i.
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bensimmo
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Re: Full windows 10 experience on armv8 a possibility

Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:59 pm

Koeshi wrote:
bensimmo wrote:I'm all for cheap arm based tablet/tab books/laptops with Win10 on, not base on Intel Atom.
Opens up a raft of gaming machine options too.

As for the Pi, It's only just capable of running Pixel and Chromeium. Pixel is feature nuked and lacks a lot of ease of use and accessibility. If the did managed to squeeze a feature rich desktop Windows10 and Edge onto the Pi2/3, that would be some doing. They do have a start on the core.
Win10 uses about as much resources at boot with nothing opened as the Pi3 offers in total so that "feature rich desktop" would be all you get and no further.

Also while I am not an expert in these matters I am fairly certain that this will not open up gaming, Windows is not the only thing about wintel machines that sees them used for gaming. You would still need an x86 emulator which on top of the already less powerful than intel, ARM cores means that you are not going to be playing anything current gen.
See bold.


Gaming machines can be streaming and processors are only getting more powerful. I did not mention current/future gen games, there is far more to gaming than needing GigaUHD+ MegaHDR.
Android manages ARM/Intel compatibility fine, there is no reason Windows should be able to manage it.
Or that Windows10 as the base has to be desktop or 2D, there is far more too it than a PC gaming machine.

ejolson
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Re: Full windows 10 experience on armv8 a possibility

Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:14 pm

joaodriessen wrote:Various media outlets reporting on Microsoft partnership with Qualcomm to release an arm version of windows 10 with desktop & apps support.
It appears to be a political response to Intel cancelling Atom. Windows universal applications are pointless without tablets that run Windows.

Since most of the applications that make Microsoft Windows interesting have closed-source proprietary licenses that deny people the freedom to modify them to run on ARM, even if Windows runs on ARM it seems unlikely Windows' programs will. Of course, new versions of Windows also allow execution of Linux binaries and bringing back Android compatibility is always a possibility.

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bensimmo
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Re: Full windows 10 experience on armv8 a possibility

Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:07 pm

If it's built on a platform like UA then there should be little problem having them run on whatever.

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Re: Full windows 10 experience on armv8 a possibility

Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:45 pm

solar3000 wrote:They did not mention pi anywhere.
Also, the snapdragon is way more powerful than the pi's broadcom. Even in custom OS like raspbian, its still very lagging and slow at a low video res of 480i.
? You should be able to get 1080p30 easily.

Pi3 is a quad core A53 at 1.2Ghz, Snapdragons have varying core counts and architecture types, but they are not that dissimilar. Snapdragon can clock much higher though due to the smaller process node.

But, tbh, how much processing power do you really need? Very few people use the full processing power of the devices they have now!!
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Re: Full windows 10 experience on armv8 a possibility

Fri Dec 09, 2016 1:07 pm

bensimmo wrote:If it's built on a platform like UA then there should be little problem having them run on whatever.
Indeed. Some people think of "Windows" and "your favourite Windows applications" as only being X86 binary executables, but that's not necessarily the case.

Martin Frezman
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Re: Full windows 10 experience on armv8 a possibility

Fri Dec 09, 2016 1:16 pm

hippy wrote:
bensimmo wrote:If it's built on a platform like UA then there should be little problem having them run on whatever.
Indeed. Some people think of "Windows" and "your favourite Windows applications" as only being X86 binary executables, but that's not necessarily the case.
What you say is true, or course, in the purely theoretical plane.
And certainly, MSFT would like us to believe that it will all "just work". I.e., that there will be apps a plenty for "Windows Everywhere".

But the reality is that, for most people, Windows means "my existing apps on x86".
If this post appears in the wrong forums category, my apologies.

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bensimmo
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Re: Full windows 10 experience on armv8 a possibility

Fri Dec 09, 2016 1:29 pm

But is that their market or future market?
It opens up more tabket/phone and IoT setups, it opens up more XBOX* ideas.

I don't know why people get so hey up about these things, Microsoft can write for ARM if it wants.



*which is not just a console.

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Re: Full windows 10 experience on armv8 a possibility

Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:41 pm

mikerr wrote:Full desktop Microsoft Windows already exists on ARM in the form of Windows RT as used in original Surface RT tablets...
It was actually a neutered version of Windows. They tried to reinvent their Windows CE and failed on it, just like with the Netbooks running Windows 7 starter.
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