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Re: How long will it take for Risc OS to be on todays level of Raspbian?

Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:41 pm
by fruitoftheloom
DavidS wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:30 pm
Contrary to statements above, it is not easier to meet hard real-time constraints on a cooperative system. Although there may be other reasons to select a cooperative scheduler. I hope no one is misled by this.
You omit to change the meaning all over again.

I said that there is a reason that many Hard Real time systems are still cooperative multitasking. It is easier to predict the cycle count if you know all of the running code and the task schedular/switcher implementation, on a cooperative multitasking system, this is true.

Ok I should have been more clear that this IS NOT an advantage of RISC OS, do NOT ATTEMPT to use RISC OS for Hard Realtime (unless your time constraints allow for the tolorance needed).
Contrary to statements above, the issue of unresponsive GUIs is not down to the use of a preemptive multitasking system. The same situations, missing/ignoring GUI events, can be achieved with a cooperative scheduler.
You lost what I said completely, and are attempting to make it sound like I said something different to what I said.

I said that if software were to be unresponsive do to ignoring events on a cooperative multitasking system people would be less likely to use it. Thus it encourages good coding practices to help maintain user responciveness.

The same responsiveness is possible regardless of multitasking model. You are just likely to get away with worse responsiveness on a Preemptive Multitasking GUI system than on a Cooperative Multitasking one while still having users accept and continue to use the software.

I was extremely clear in my meaning. So as you are without question attempting to change the meaning of what is said to make it sound bad, I will not be surprised if this thread gets locked. Thanks a lot.

Yes locking your posts would be advantageous :lol:

Re: How long will it take for Risc OS to be on todays level of Raspbian?

Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:49 pm
by DirkS
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:41 pm


Yes locking your posts would be advantageous :lol:
I have to disagree... It keeps the usual suspects away from other, more interesting topics :mrgreen:

Re: How long will it take for Risc OS to be on todays level of Raspbian?

Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:10 pm
by DavidS
Removed Post, too far off topic.

Re: How long will it take for Risc OS to be on todays level of Raspbian?

Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:16 pm
by mahjongg
Sigh... you people disappoint me. :roll: :roll:

you are just like bickering children, how unfortunate.... :|

this forum is for the discussing the pro- and cons of the OS that lead from the BBC-micro to the ARM processor running among many other things the raspberry PI family of single board computers.
its a great piece of computing history, and is worth discussing.

Re: How long will it take for Risc OS to be on todays level of Raspbian?

Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:39 am
by DavidS
Now getting back on track, sorry about the detour. I revised my responce earlier:
DavidS wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:30 pm
@Heater:
You may wish to re-read the post you are refering to. I added some highlighting with bold and italics to show what you may have missed. Other than the highlighting and a comment about the edit of the post the content is completely unchanged.

Even the closing paragraph of the body of that post should say a lot to the true meaning of what was said.
DavidS wrote:All applications using the Window Manager should be written to be responcive on all systems (cooperative or preemptive). Often times people writing for preemptive multitasking systems forget this, and openly frustrate there users by becoming unresponcive for extended periods (which would not fly on a cooperative multitasking system).
...

Re: How long will it take for Risc OS to be on todays level of Raspbian?

Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:53 pm
by bulldozer
Although I love RISC-OS as well. I do think it will take a lot of time before Ipv6 , bluetooth , Wifi and other things are properly supported. Reasons are already given here. Lack of developers but I think more platvorms have this problem. Netbsd for example doesn't support Wifi for the pi natively. Also bluetooth is a problem.
During the Big Ben Club evening I posed that it will take another 5 years before WiFi is normally supported.

Re: How long will it take for Risc OS to be on todays level of Raspbian?

Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:06 pm
by DavidS
bulldozer wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:53 pm
Although I love RISC-OS as well. I do think it will take a lot of time before Ipv6 , bluetooth , Wifi and other things are properly supported. Reasons are already given here. Lack of developers but I think more platvorms have this problem. Netbsd for example doesn't support Wifi for the pi natively. Also bluetooth is a problem.
During the Big Ben Club evening I posed that it will take another 5 years before WiFi is normally supported.
I must agree for the most part.

IPv6 we know is being worked on now over at ROOL.

WiFi we know is also now being worked on over at ROOL, though they are only focusing on the RPi 3B/3B+ WiFi. So it will likely be a few years before we have general purpose WiFi.

In the case of RISC OS, I guess that these can be counted as part of the OS, as IP support is from a ROMModule, and WiFi is likely to be done with a few ROMModules.

The IPv6 issue could be a problem for some, though I do not think it will take long for that one to be corrected.

At least we do not absolute need native WiFi yet, as there are WiFi to Ethernet bridges available for very low cost (less than half the price of a RPi board).

Re: How long will it take for Risc OS to be on todays level of Raspbian?

Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:52 am
by hippy
DavidS wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:06 pm
At least we do not absolute need native WiFi yet, as there are WiFi to Ethernet bridges available for very low cost (less than half the price of a RPi board).
That may be acceptable for those who already want to use RISC OS but it is likely to discourage those who might consider it but do not want to jump through that hoop when they can simply use some other OS which does support on-board WiFi.

Ultibo has the same problem; lack of support for on-board WiFi means it's not really suitable for projects on Pi models it should be most suited to.

Re: How long will it take for Risc OS to be on todays level of Raspbian?

Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:32 pm
by bulldozer
Hi,

"At least we do not absolutely need native WiFi yet, as there are WiFi to Ethernet bridges available for very low cost". That was not the point of this discussion.
To add another point the development tools. While for MS Windows ( and most for Linux as well ) you have nice GUI IDE you have to use makefiles etc to have something compiled or use BBC BASIC to assembly code for RISCOS so the development tools are a little bit behind as well. This complicates matters as well.

Re: How long will it take for Risc OS to be on todays level of Raspbian?

Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:07 pm
by jahboater
bulldozer wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:32 pm
To add another point the development tools. While for MS Windows ( and most for Linux as well ) you have nice GUI IDE you have to use makefiles etc to have something compiled or use BBC BASIC to assembly code for RISCOS so the development tools are a little bit behind as well. This complicates matters as well.
The C/C++ compiler (GCC) seems to be stuck at version 4.7
The current GCC version is 9.1 and even the ultra stable Debian Buster ships with version 8.3.
Version 4.7 stopped being supported long ago, and obviously will not accept the recent language standards.

I believe the assembler does not support the current official standard ARM ISA's (A32, T32, A64) , or even older ones such as UAL.

I don't know about other development support tools such as run-time validation, profilers, debuggers, test coverage generation, IDE's etc etc.

Re: How long will it take for Risc OS to be on todays level of Raspbian?

Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:27 pm
by scruss
jahboater wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:07 pm
I believe the assembler does not support the current official standard ARM ISA's (A32, T32, A64) , or even older ones such as UAL.
So that puts the answer to the questions as "likely never". In order to maintain or develop the OS, you'd need to be very proficient in a roughly 20 year out of date assembly language dialect. So the pool of qualified and interested maintainers will, unfortunately, be small. Any progress will be welcome, but it won't be quick and will tend to meet the developers' interests, not the wider potential user base.

It's a cool OS in the same way Mac System 9 was cool: it looks pretty, and it has a very different model of user interaction. But like OS 9, its methods are not up to current user expectations. Fewer resource forks, more /etc/magic …

Re: How long will it take for Risc OS to be on todays level of Raspbian?

Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:42 pm
by jahboater
In modern times, I suspect the number of people willing to maintain an operating system written in any kind of assembler is limited to say the least.

Re: How long will it take for Risc OS to be on todays level of Raspbian?

Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 1:44 pm
by bulldozer
scruss wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:27 pm
jahboater wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:07 pm
I believe the assembler does not support the current official standard ARM ISA's (A32, T32, A64) , or even older ones such as UAL.
So that puts the answer to the questions as "likely never". In order to maintain or develop the OS, you'd need to be very proficient in a roughly 20 year out of date assembly language dialect. So the pool of qualified and interested maintainers will, unfortunately, be small. Any progress will be welcome, but it won't be quick and will tend to meet the developers' interests, not the wider potential user base.
You can program in C ( don't try C++ ) but it is hard to work with for the reasons already outlined ( no proper GUI and other tools as indicated by @jahboater ).
It is, however, another interesting point you mentioned that it will tend to meet the developer's interests and that is true as well and I think a new point in this discussion. To take myself as an example I find it more interesting to develop software to talk directly to hardware ( serial ports, Bluetooth ) then working on a DTP program. If I want to use that I use Microsoft Word or LibreOffice.
This is also the reason I think it will take some time before basic things like Wifi, Bluetooth, IPv6 will be supported and I don't think we should have the illision that we will catch up with a mainstream.

P.S. I don't think ROOL is working on WiFi the only instituted the bounty for it.

Re: How long will it take for Risc OS to be on todays level of Raspbian?

Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:36 pm
by jahboater
DavidS wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:49 pm
Maintaining applications written in Assembly is no different from any other programming language.
Sorry David, you cant be serious?

When I want to move my application to a new ARM processor (ARMv8 64-bit for example).
- I have to rewrite my application from scratch, every single line must be rewritten.

When I want to move my application to a new processor (RISC-V or Intel for example).
- I have to rewrite my application from scratch, every single line must be rewritten.

Contrast that to C, where I just type "make" and its all done.

These requirements happen all time for a successful program.

Re: How long will it take for Risc OS to be on todays level of Raspbian?

Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:37 pm
by DavidS
bulldozer wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:32 pm
Hi,

"At least we do not absolutely need native WiFi yet, as there are WiFi to Ethernet bridges available for very low cost". That was not the point of this discussion.
To add another point the development tools. While for MS Windows ( and most for Linux as well ) you have nice GUI IDE you have to use makefiles etc to have something compiled or use BBC BASIC to assembly code for RISCOS so the development tools are a little bit behind as well. This complicates matters as well.
We have all the above. Stable IDE's (done as component applications), makefiles, C compilers, etc.

Personally I think that the development environments on RISC OS are more mature than those of Linux or Windows, though that is my personal opinion. They are different in nature than the ones on other systems so I can see people new to RISC OS having a bit of a stumble in getting started (unless they use the command line tools).

So i am not sure what you are attempting to say.?

Re: How long will it take for Risc OS to be on todays level of Raspbian?

Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:41 pm
by DavidS
jahboater wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:07 pm
bulldozer wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:32 pm
To add another point the development tools. While for MS Windows ( and most for Linux as well ) you have nice GUI IDE you have to use makefiles etc to have something compiled or use BBC BASIC to assembly code for RISCOS so the development tools are a little bit behind as well. This complicates matters as well.
The C/C++ compiler (GCC) seems to be stuck at version 4.7
The current GCC version is 9.1 and even the ultra stable Debian Buster ships with version 8.3.
Version 4.7 stopped being supported long ago, and obviously will not accept the recent language standards.

I believe the assembler does not support the current official standard ARM ISA's (A32, T32, A64) , or even older ones such as UAL.
As far as I know the only thing missing is AARCH64 at this time, and that is because RISC OS can not use that.

Thumb may not be tested as much as it gets very little use on RISC OS (can not make a RISC OS system call from Thumb).
I don't know about other development support tools such as run-time validation, profilers, debuggers, test coverage generation, IDE's etc etc.
We are pretty well set in those areas.