sms
Posts: 4
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NOOOBS v3.0.0, RISC OS v. Pi Zero, Zero W

Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:37 am

Using a Mac (and SDFormatter, and the Finder), I put NOOOBS v3.0.0
onto a 16GB SD card, plugged the SD card into a Pi Zero W, configured
the wireless network (at which point RISC OS appeared as an option), and
tried to install it. This failed, saying:

RISCOS cannot be installed. Size of recovery partition too large.

I tried again, using NOOOBS v2.9.0, which got further, but after
booting the result, it hung after a few lines of output, the last of
which was:

Contacting DHCP server for Ethernet over USB interface

A Mac had been supplying power to the "PWR" USB port, but I
sacrificed the keyboard and mouse, and connected the Mac to the "USB"
USB port, and tried again, with the same result. The Mac Network panel
showed the RNDIS/Ethernet Gadget as not connected.

I tried again, using a plain-old (no-W) Pi Zero, with the same
result.

The same Pi Zero with a suitable Raspbian SD card worked as expected,
and the Mac Network panel showed the RNDIS/Ethernet Gadget as "currently
active", with the expected (static) IP address (10.0.3.14), and
networking generally works in that configuration.

So, NOOOBS v3.0.0 appears to be broken, so far as RISC OS is
concerned, and the RISC OS boot never found any/either network interface
on a Pi Zero [W].

Any helpful suggestions would be appreciated. (Ideally, ones which
don't require a running RISC OS system, or spending more than $5 for a
more deluxe (non-Zero) R-Pi.)

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procount
Posts: 1602
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Location: UK

Re: NOOOBS v3.0.0, RISC OS v. Pi Zero, Zero W

Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:45 am

RISCOS cannot be installed. Size of recovery partition too large.
Try downloading NOOBS_Lite (or pinn_lite ;) )instead and install RISCOS from that.
RISCOS uses a different file system and is quite constrained on where it must reside.
I think the size of the OSes included in NOOBS_Full are preventing RISCOS from being installed.
Using NOOBS_Lite will also save some space on your SD card.
PINN - NOOBS with the extras... https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=142574

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DavidS
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Re: NOOOBS v3.0.0, RISC OS v. Pi Zero, Zero W

Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:17 pm

As far as your second hang:
You will just have to wait an extra 30 or 60 seconds for it to time out. That is just saying that you do not have the Raspberry Pi plugged in to your ethernet.

Remember RISC OS does not currently have WiFi support, so it attempts to get the IP address from a DHCP server on the Ethernet connected network. If there is no connection it will timeout after a while, then you can either decide to plug in a connection (needed for internet access), or you can configure RISC OS to not look for a connection.
RPi = Way for me to have fun and save power.
100% Off Grid.
Household TTL Electricity Usage = 1.4KW/h per day.
500W Solar System, produces 2.8KW/h per day average.

fruitoftheloom
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Location: Delightful Dorset

Re: NOOOBS v3.0.0, RISC OS v. Pi Zero, Zero W

Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:27 pm

sms wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:37 am
Using a Mac (and SDFormatter, and the Finder), I put NOOOBS v3.0.0
onto a 16GB SD card, plugged the SD card into a Pi Zero W, configured
the wireless network (at which point RISC OS appeared as an option), and
tried to install it. This failed, saying:

RISCOS cannot be installed. Size of recovery partition too large.

I tried again, using NOOOBS v2.9.0, which got further, but after
booting the result, it hung after a few lines of output, the last of
which was:

Contacting DHCP server for Ethernet over USB interface

A Mac had been supplying power to the "PWR" USB port, but I
sacrificed the keyboard and mouse, and connected the Mac to the "USB"
USB port, and tried again, with the same result. The Mac Network panel
showed the RNDIS/Ethernet Gadget as not connected.

I tried again, using a plain-old (no-W) Pi Zero, with the same
result.

The same Pi Zero with a suitable Raspbian SD card worked as expected,
and the Mac Network panel showed the RNDIS/Ethernet Gadget as "currently
active", with the expected (static) IP address (10.0.3.14), and
networking generally works in that configuration.

So, NOOOBS v3.0.0 appears to be broken, so far as RISC OS is
concerned, and the RISC OS boot never found any/either network interface
on a Pi Zero [W].

Any helpful suggestions would be appreciated. (Ideally, ones which
don't require a running RISC OS system, or spending more than $5 for a
more deluxe (non-Zero) R-Pi.)

Why use NoobS or PiNN, seems superfluous, as stated no WiFi support so just go here to download:

https://www.riscosopen.org/content/down ... spberry-pi
adieu

My other Computer is an Asus CS10 ChromeBit running Chrome Operating System.
HP Envy 4500 Wireless Printer supported by HPLIP software in Raspbian Stretch.

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procount
Posts: 1602
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:32 pm
Location: UK

Re: NOOOBS v3.0.0, RISC OS v. Pi Zero, Zero W

Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:37 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:27 pm
Why use NoobS or PiNN, seems superfluous, as stated no WiFi support so just go here to download:
I'm not sure why "no wifi support in Risc" means NOOBS/PINN is superfluous, as NOOBS/PINN can use Wifi to download Risc :?

@sms: a simpler way to get NOOBS loading Risc OS is to just delete the /os folder on your NOOBS partition and add 'runinstaller' to the beginning of the recovery.cmdline file. That effectively turns it into NOOBS_lite. It will wipe anything that is already on your card (except NOOBS) and repartition it ready to install Risc OS.
PINN - NOOBS with the extras... https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=142574

fruitoftheloom
Posts: 19483
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Location: Delightful Dorset

Re: NOOOBS v3.0.0, RISC OS v. Pi Zero, Zero W

Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:16 pm

procount wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:37 pm
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:27 pm
Why use NoobS or PiNN, seems superfluous, as stated no WiFi support so just go here to download:
I'm not sure why "no wifi support in Risc" means NOOBS/PINN is superfluous, as NOOBS/PINN can use Wifi to download Risc :?

@sms: a simpler way to get NOOBS loading Risc OS is to just delete the /os folder on your NOOBS partition and add 'runinstaller' to the beginning of the recovery.cmdline file. That effectively turns it into NOOBS_lite. It will wipe anything that is already on your card (except NOOBS) and repartition it ready to install Risc OS.

Yes N & P waste 1GB+ space and therefore for a single OS install superfluous..
adieu

My other Computer is an Asus CS10 ChromeBit running Chrome Operating System.
HP Envy 4500 Wireless Printer supported by HPLIP software in Raspbian Stretch.

sms
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:39 am

Re: NOOOBS v3.0.0, RISC OS v. Pi Zero, Zero W

Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:25 pm

> Try downloading NOOBS_Lite [...]

As an installer, that works better. Thanks. The network problem
remains, however.


> You will just have to wait an extra 30 or 60 seconds for it to time
> out. That is just saying that you do not have the Raspberry Pi plugged
> in to your ethernet.

It does not time out (after some minutes), and the USB-connected Mac
still says that the RNDIS/Ethernet Gadget on its end is "Not Connected".

> Remember RISC OS does not currently have WiFi support, [...]

I'd need to know that before I could remember it. If it has no
wireless support, and it can't cope with the USB pseudo-Ethernet
interface on a Pi Zero, then I'd appear to be forced to use a Pi model
with a real Ethernet interface. Remember that a Pi Zero has none.

Given the "Ethernet over USB interface" in that message, one might
infer that this was supposed to work, as it does with Raspbian, but
evidence suggests otherwise.

> [...] or you can configure RISC OS to not look for a connection.

Without a network, it would be approximately useless to me.


> Why use NoobS or PiNN, seems superfluous, as stated no WiFi support so
> just go here to download: [...]

One reason would be that I have no idea what to do with the ".img"
file in that package. Instructions like, say, "which can be programmed
onto any SD card of 2GB or larger" tell me nothing about how the SD card
should be formatted/partitioned, or whether I should be trying to guess
how to use "dd" to copy it to the raw device, or what else to do. If I
had found any actual instructions somewhere, then I might have
considered that option more carefully.

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DavidS
Posts: 3800
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Re: NOOOBS v3.0.0, RISC OS v. Pi Zero, Zero W

Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:16 pm

Ah ok, the problem is that it is having trouble with the sudo-ethernet interface you are using. I had forgotten that the Zerro does not have one.

The Ethernet over USB that is supported by RISC OS is only the chip that is on the Raspberry Pi B/B+/2B/3B/3B+, none others are supported. On the RPi that is connected via the USB interface, so it is a USB ethernet adaptor even though it is on board.

Try booting without any ethernet adaptor hooked up, then you can change the config.
RPi = Way for me to have fun and save power.
100% Off Grid.
Household TTL Electricity Usage = 1.4KW/h per day.
500W Solar System, produces 2.8KW/h per day average.

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DavidS
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Re: NOOOBS v3.0.0, RISC OS v. Pi Zero, Zero W

Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:23 pm

You would likely be better off using a Raspberry Pi B+ or 3B if you need ethernet. I am not aware of any option that works with the RPi Zero/ZeroW for RISC OS to have ethernet.
RPi = Way for me to have fun and save power.
100% Off Grid.
Household TTL Electricity Usage = 1.4KW/h per day.
500W Solar System, produces 2.8KW/h per day average.

fruitoftheloom
Posts: 19483
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Location: Delightful Dorset

Re: NOOOBS v3.0.0, RISC OS v. Pi Zero, Zero W

Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:56 pm

sms wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:25 pm
> Try downloading NOOBS_Lite [...]

As an installer, that works better. Thanks. The network problem
remains, however.


> You will just have to wait an extra 30 or 60 seconds for it to time
> out. That is just saying that you do not have the Raspberry Pi plugged
> in to your ethernet.

It does not time out (after some minutes), and the USB-connected Mac
still says that the RNDIS/Ethernet Gadget on its end is "Not Connected".

> Remember RISC OS does not currently have WiFi support, [...]

I'd need to know that before I could remember it. If it has no
wireless support, and it can't cope with the USB pseudo-Ethernet
interface on a Pi Zero, then I'd appear to be forced to use a Pi model
with a real Ethernet interface. Remember that a Pi Zero has none.

Given the "Ethernet over USB interface" in that message, one might
infer that this was supposed to work, as it does with Raspbian, but
evidence suggests otherwise.

> [...] or you can configure RISC OS to not look for a connection.

Without a network, it would be approximately useless to me.


> Why use NoobS or PiNN, seems superfluous, as stated no WiFi support so
> just go here to download: [...]

One reason would be that I have no idea what to do with the ".img"
file in that package. Instructions like, say, "which can be programmed
onto any SD card of 2GB or larger" tell me nothing about how the SD card
should be formatted/partitioned, or whether I should be trying to guess
how to use "dd" to copy it to the raw device, or what else to do. If I
had found any actual instructions somewhere, then I might have
considered that option more carefully.

Etcher unzips and creates a bootable SD Card in a SDHC Card Reader in one operation:

https://www.balena.io/etcher/


USB Ethernet Gadget Mode:

https://blog.gbaman.info/?p=791
adieu

My other Computer is an Asus CS10 ChromeBit running Chrome Operating System.
HP Envy 4500 Wireless Printer supported by HPLIP software in Raspbian Stretch.

sms
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:39 am

Re: NOOOBS v3.0.0, RISC OS v. Pi Zero, Zero W

Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:57 am

> Etcher unzips and creates a bootable SD Card in a SDHC Card Reader in
> one operation: [...]

Ok, but such an explanation would be more helpful if it appeared on
that "which can be programmed" page, rather than in a forum like this.

Unzip is the least of my problems, and an Etcher program did seem to
load "ro524-1875M.img" onto a card, but, upon booting, the network
problem was unchanged.

> USB Ethernet Gadget Mode: [...]

As I said, I've done that with Raspbian, but it failed with RISC OS.

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DavidS
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Re: NOOOBS v3.0.0, RISC OS v. Pi Zero, Zero W

Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:40 am

sms wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:57 am
> Etcher unzips and creates a bootable SD Card in a SDHC Card Reader in
> one operation: [...]

Ok, but such an explanation would be more helpful if it appeared on
that "which can be programmed" page, rather than in a forum like this.

Unzip is the least of my problems, and an Etcher program did seem to
load "ro524-1875M.img" onto a card, but, upon booting, the network
problem was unchanged.

> USB Ethernet Gadget Mode: [...]

As I said, I've done that with Raspbian, but it failed with RISC OS.
Raspbian is Linux, RISC OS is NOT.

RISC OS has a much more limited set of supported USB devices. As far as I know the only USB ethernet adaptor known for sure to work correctly with the current RISC OS is the one that is built into the Raspbarry Pi B/B+/2B/3B/3B+. So it is very likely that RISC OS is choking on the external adaptor you have plugged in, which probably means that it will not make it up while that adapter is plugged in.

So you probably need to either boot without an ethernet device plugged in or get a Raspberry Pi that has the builtin ethernet adapter. As you say that you require network access the second option seems to be the only workable one.

FYI: I am typing this from RISC OS 5.26 running on a Raspberry B+ (BCM2835 based ARMv6 100Mb/s ehternet). And the posts earlier today were made from a Raspberry 3B (BCM2837 based ARMv8, with gigabit ethernet). So it definitely does work with the onboard adapters (which are linked in by USB to the SoC).
RPi = Way for me to have fun and save power.
100% Off Grid.
Household TTL Electricity Usage = 1.4KW/h per day.
500W Solar System, produces 2.8KW/h per day average.

sms
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:39 am

Re: NOOOBS v3.0.0, RISC OS v. Pi Zero, Zero W

Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:00 am

> Raspbian is Linux, RISC OS is NOT.

I believe that that was obvious, even to me.

> [...] it is very likely that RISC OS is choking on the external
> adaptor you have plugged in, [...]

Who said anything about any "adaptor [I] have plugged in"? There is
no such adapter, only a USB cable. A Web search for, say, "RNDIS
Ethernet gadget" might provide more information on this scheme for a Pi
Zero.

> [...] or get a Raspberry Pi that has the builtin ethernet adapter.
> [...]

I've already concluded that.

fruitoftheloom
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Re: NOOOBS v3.0.0, RISC OS v. Pi Zero, Zero W

Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:43 am

sms wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:00 am
> Raspbian is Linux, RISC OS is NOT.

I believe that that was obvious, even to me.

> [...] it is very likely that RISC OS is choking on the external
> adaptor you have plugged in, [...]

Who said anything about any "adaptor have plugged in"? There is
no such adapter, only a USB cable. A Web search for, say, "RNDIS
Ethernet gadget" might provide more information on this scheme for a Pi
Zero.

> [...] or get a Raspberry Pi that has the builtin ethernet adapter.
> [...]

I've already concluded that.

1) put the Zero in Gadget Host Mode


2a) RiscOS needs to recognise that the USB is an Ethernet adaptor

2b) is RiscOS capable of recognising the created USB-Ethernet Adaptor

I believe RiscOS does not have this capability !!



Therefore you will need something like this:

https://www.modmypi.com/raspberry-pi/ra ... sb-pi-zero

Though you need to insure it has a Supportef Chipset......
adieu

My other Computer is an Asus CS10 ChromeBit running Chrome Operating System.
HP Envy 4500 Wireless Printer supported by HPLIP software in Raspbian Stretch.

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DavidS
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Re: NOOOBS v3.0.0, RISC OS v. Pi Zero, Zero W

Fri Nov 23, 2018 1:19 pm

sms wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:00 am
> Raspbian is Linux, RISC OS is NOT.

I believe that that was obvious, even to me.

> [...] it is very likely that RISC OS is choking on the external
> adaptor you have plugged in, [...]

Who said anything about any "adaptor have plugged in"? There is
no such adapter, only a USB cable. A Web search for, say, "RNDIS
Ethernet gadget" might provide more information on this scheme for a Pi
Zero.
RISC OS does not know that, RISC OS sees the faked adaptor and is not able to work with it, RISC OS does not know that it is not a real ethernet adaptor. That is the trouble.
RPi = Way for me to have fun and save power.
100% Off Grid.
Household TTL Electricity Usage = 1.4KW/h per day.
500W Solar System, produces 2.8KW/h per day average.

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DavidS
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Re: NOOOBS v3.0.0, RISC OS v. Pi Zero, Zero W

Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:21 pm

There is another thing, if you have a USB plug in Ethernet adapter you could see if the chipset is supported by RISC OS directly, or by EtherUSB. See:

http://www.effarig.co.uk/riscos/

It is just a little bit down that page.
RPi = Way for me to have fun and save power.
100% Off Grid.
Household TTL Electricity Usage = 1.4KW/h per day.
500W Solar System, produces 2.8KW/h per day average.

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