nr.
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Re: Has anyone bought Nut Pi?

Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:18 pm

Worth mentioning that my NutPi card turned up today, and installing packages from a card reader has so far, been an absolute breeze.

One thing to mention though - the documentation on the ROOL website - https://www.riscosopen.org/content/sale ... i-contents - lists messengerpro as one of the apps. It isn't. You get messengerpi instead, which doesn't do IMAP as far as I can work out [1]. Also the mail transfer agent, NetFetch is again a Pi specific version, which is stripped down, and among other things doesn't offer periodic checking of offline mailboxes. Apparently the fact that I've bought the NutPi version means that I can update to the full version at a reduced cost.

Slightly miffed at this to be honest. I mean, I would have paid up anyway, so why no mention of Pi-specific stripped down versions of the software?

[1] "Please note that Messenger Pi is limited to "download" type
email (aka "offline" mode) such as the POP3 mail servers
offered by most internet providers and services. As such
"Messenger Offline Database" will be the only choice
offered during setup."
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mephillips
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Re: Has anyone bought Nut Pi?

Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:14 pm

In case anyone is wondering, the version of the Impact database on the NutPi is the full version, including the ImpEmail mail-merging tool which had extra functionality added for the Raspberry Pi. Impact is not generally as powerful or as standard as Datapower, but pretty useful. I've been told by a user that "Datapower Pi" is also cut down from Datapower Home, lacking the graphing tools and relational capabilities.

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rmac
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Re: Has anyone bought Nut Pi?

Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:36 pm

There is a footnote on the RISC OS Open page where Nut Pi is offered.

Please note: the software supplied with the Nut Pi is specifically built for Raspberry Pi hardware and will not function correctly on any other hardware platform. Use on any other platform is completely unsupported by ROOL and the individual software vendors. You need RISC OS running on your Raspberry Pi to use Nut Pi - please see this page for more information.

This seems clear to me that the software is specifically for the Pi and I wouldn't expect the top line software for such a give-away price.

To expect fully functional software for 40 quid is a bit unreasonable (that other RISC OS users are paying a premium for by the way). The market for RISC OS is small and the few vendors left are struggling. If each person who buys Nut Pi upgrades one of the 'cut down' pieces of software the vendors will be in a position to add additional features and maybe even lower their prices as the volume of sales increase.
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poglad
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Re: Has anyone bought Nut Pi?

Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:44 pm

rmac wrote:There is a footnote on the RISC OS Open page where Nut Pi is offered.

Please note: the software supplied with the Nut Pi is specifically built for Raspberry Pi hardware and will not function correctly on any other hardware platform. Use on any other platform is completely unsupported by ROOL and the individual software vendors. You need RISC OS running on your Raspberry Pi to use Nut Pi - please see this page for more information.

This seems clear to me that the software is specifically for the Pi and I wouldn't expect the top line software for such a give-away price.
Yes, specifically built. I'll bet most people would take that to mean that the binaries are compiled and linked for the Pi and its firmware, not that features have been excluded. Anyway, if a program with one name has been substituted for a different (lesser functionality) program with a different name, that's not really very clear is it? Perhaps the footnote needs to be clarified a bit. Many people don't mind "lite" versions of software with full versions available for purchase, but prefer to be told up front.

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Re: Has anyone bought Nut Pi?

Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:47 pm

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. The ROOL documentation clearly states that the package contains MessengerPro, and following the link provided took me to the vendors page where it states that it supports IMAP. Saying that the NutPi package contains Pi specific versions of the software to lock them onto running on the Pi is entirely reasonable. Not telling you that those Pi specific versions do not contain all the advertised functions isn't. YMMV.
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Re: Has anyone bought Nut Pi?

Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:30 pm

nr. wrote:I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. The ROOL documentation clearly states that the package contains MessengerPro, and following the link provided took me to the vendors page where it states that it supports IMAP. Saying that the NutPi package contains Pi specific versions of the software to lock them onto running on the Pi is entirely reasonable. Not telling you that those Pi specific versions do not contain all the advertised functions isn't. YMMV.
Have you commented to ROOL or Rcomp about this?

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Re: Has anyone bought Nut Pi?

Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:35 am

sawdust wrote:Have you commented to ROOL or Rcomp about this?
Nope. Like I said, firstly I would have paid up anyway, and secondly, it's only a perception of mine that things weren't quite as they should have been. As has been pointed out already, maybe I was being unrealistic in my expectations. I'm sure that if my view is perceived as valid, others will also notice this and mention it. At which time ROOL probably should be made aware as it will be apparent that it's not just my personal view.
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rcomp
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Re: Has anyone bought Nut Pi?

Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:49 pm

Hello everyone! (sorry for length of this post).

This thread was pointed out to me privately, so I have registered to address this issue, which is a cause of concern to both ourselves and ROOL - we certainly don't want anyone to feel disappointed. We're all massive RISC OS fans, and our hope is that as many people as possible will come to enjoy RISC OS on the Raspberry Pi, and the NutPi project is most definately a hugely important part of this. I'm in discussions with ROOL as to how to improve the NutPi web pages, and hopefully that will bear fruit over the weekend.

Firstly, to address the specific concern about Messenger Pi. If anyone feels unduly inconvenienced by the IMAP cut, please contact us privately, and I'll try and resolve this - the IMAP component is actually a standalone part, which I can supply to those who need it desparately.

When developing for a project like NutPi, we were approached by ROOL to deliver software to add as much value to the NutPi but within budget constrained by the NutPi's RRP. Clearly the goal was to deliver as much value as possible, with as much breadth as possible, so we had to make decisions as how to best achieve this. In Messenger's case, the only "transport" normally included in the full price was IMAP (this has now changed in v7), with the more common POP/SMTP being part of NetFetch.

This is a historical peculiarity that stems from the modem/dialup era, where people used separate "Internet Suite" products which managed connection and fetching. In order to offer POP/SMTP as part of NutPi, we therefore had to include our NetFetch as well. Since that's a whole lot of expensive software, we felt that a fair compromise was to cut IMAP from Messenger Pi since most people can use POP+leave-on-server to achieve similar results.

In Messenger Pro 7 (which has been released since NutPi was created), we took further steps to address this for new users, as it had clearly become a problem. MP7 includes portions of NetFetch as part of the package, to ensure that POP/SMTP/IMAP are all supported "out of the box". However, please remember that Mpro7 alone costs more than NutPi retailed for!

Anyway, I'd like to re-iterate my offer to help anyone who feels that they can't get by without the cut feature(s). It certainly isn't our intention that users be inconvenienced by this - when creating software to a budget, it is very difficult to gauge which features will be needed. I'm quite happy to produce a future update for the NutPi version based on feedback on this issue.

It is my belief that Pi has a huge "evangelical" role to play in spreading the RISC OS word to new and returning users (especially the latter). NutPi is, in many ways, the "ace in the hole", as it gives quality software for the same price as a meal-out.

However, one does need to stop and think for a moment - if most new sales are likely to be Pi-based, what incentive is there for anyone to buy the more expensive editions of software? Are we essentially saying RISC OS software is only worth 5-10pounds an app (or less) - that's less than a Happy Meal!

This is a very difficult conundrum, and one we're all wrestling with. Our aim with NutPi was to give as much as possible/sensible in the NutPi suite, whilst still keeping some value in the full copies. We need that to stay in business, unles NutPi is hugely successful (I have no clue on sales figures yet). This is something that we're revisiting and rethinking all the time. As one of the few "full time, with paid developers" companies within the RISC OS world, it is something which is accutely relevant to myself!

I'm certainly not saying we've made the perfect decisions, and we'd certainly welcome feedback. So far, we haven't seen any upgrades (to my knowledge) from NutPi, which either means the versions on NutPi are meeting users' needs, or that people are so upset that they're not interested at all. I tried to price upgrades such that it was cheaper to buy NutPi and upgrade a couple of apps, than buy them full-price. That seemed a fair compromise (ie. it makes NutPi extremely desirable even if you plan to buy lots of RISC OS software separately). The way I saw it, people could buy NutPi and receive a lot of quality software at a low price, or buy NutPi and upgrade to get latest/best editions, and *still* be better off!

One final thought - for existing RISC OS users with existing collections of R-Comp software, it'll still probably be cheaper to get upgrades directly from us, rather than going NutPi (although there's lots of great non-R-Comp software on NutPi which more than makes up for this). That's the result of low-cost upgrade policies (which is very different to the PC world where companies like Adobe charge huge fees for yearly updates). We tend to do major version updates (usually priced 20ukp or less) every 3 years or so, with free updates in between.

I know this is bad form to say, but please note that I don't tend to follow forums/newsgroups as I'm usually too busy with email/work/development etc. However, I'd be more than happy to discuss things with anyone on our usual R-Comp email, and once again, my goal is that NutPi users be thrilled with all things RISC OS!

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Re: Has anyone bought Nut Pi?

Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:54 pm

For the avoidance of doubt Photodesk is the Latest Full version.

dwyloc
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Re: Has anyone bought Nut Pi?

Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:18 pm

rcomp wrote:Hello everyone! (sorry for length of this post).
Firstly, to address the specific concern about Messenger Pi. If anyone feels unduly inconvenienced by the IMAP cut, please contact us privately, and I'll try and resolve this - the IMAP component is actually a standalone part, which I can supply to those who need it desparately.

I know this is bad form to say, but please note that I don't tend to follow forums/newsgroups as I'm usually too busy with email/work/development etc. However, I'd be more than happy to discuss things with anyone on our usual R-Comp email, and once again, my goal is that NutPi users be thrilled with all things RISC OS!
Just to say As someone who purchased this package for e-mail support under RiscOS I was rather disappointed to discover that I could not use the included version of Messenger to Access either my work e-mail (imap and ssl only) or my gmail account (even with POP3 ssl is required).

On a positive note I have to say I am rather impressed with the rest of the package and the versions of the other included software all see to be uncrippled and perfectly usable.

As for the price of the package it is both rather expensive when looked from the point of view of costing more than the computer it is designed to run on and out of most children's pocket money range and at the same time good value when looked at for the point of view of all the software included in the package for the price and the individual prices of the included programs.

So I would say to anyone thinking about buying Nut Pi go ahead for all the other excellent included software just forget about Messager Pi as included in the package as you probably won't be able to use it as most big e-mail service providers seem to require either SSL or IMAP support of both to access your e-mail these days from a stand alone e-mail client.

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Re: Has anyone bought Nut Pi?

Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:51 pm

Every one is complaining about Messenger Pro and its lack of ssl/IMAP. I just use Thunderbird for E-Mail; Yes it is extremely slow, and huge, though it does the job. Until something better is available, Thunderbird is a good enough solution.
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Re: Has anyone bought Nut Pi?

Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:44 pm

DavidS wrote:Every one is complaining about Messenger Pro and its lack of ssl/IMAP. I just use Thunderbird for E-Mail; Yes it is extremely slow, and huge, though it does the job. Until something better is available, Thunderbird is a good enough solution.
Sadly Thunderbird does not seem to be able to do SSL it just warns that SSL is unavailable/disabled so again no help :-(

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Re: Has anyone bought Nut Pi?

Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:17 pm

Ok I did not knw that. I just use thunderbird for my GMAIL via POP3, as GMAIL is my E-Mail sevice.
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Re: Has anyone bought Nut Pi?

Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:54 pm

DavidS wrote:Ok I did not knw that. I just use thunderbird for my GMAIL via POP3, as GMAIL is my E-Mail sevice.
I would happily use POP3 with GMAIL and Thunderbird but it would seem I need SSL support for that for that and for that you need the full version of !NetFetch not the cut down version supplied with the Nut Pi pack.

At least I think that is why I get the error message from Thunderbird on startup saying can't "Mail/News can't connect to imap.gmail.com because the SSL protocol has been disabled." As a risc os newbie it could just be that I have not set something up correctly, but as the version of !NetFetch supplied in the Nut Pi pack says that SSL is one of the disabled features missing from the cut down version supplied I am guessing thats why I am having SSL problems with e-mail.

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Re: Has anyone bought Nut Pi?

Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:24 pm

dwyloc wrote: I would happily use POP3 with GMAIL and Thunderbird but it would seem I need SSL support for that for that and for that you need the full version of !NetFetch not the cut down version supplied with the Nut Pi pack.

At least I think that is why I get the error message from Thunderbird on startup saying can't "Mail/News can't connect to imap.gmail.com because the SSL protocol has been disabled." As a risc os newbie it could just be that I have not set something up correctly, but as the version of !NetFetch supplied in the Nut Pi pack says that SSL is one of the disabled features missing from the cut down version supplied I am guessing thats why I am having SSL problems with e-mail.
Try it with the POP3 instead of IMAP. It works for me no problem, and it is still gMail, same service.
I do think you have to go into your user control panal on the gMail web site and configure it to enable POP3, and dissable SSL/SSH. I did this once and have had no reason to look at it again, I also dissabled imap, because there seems to be a bit of difficulty with gMail if you are using POP3 and IMAP is still enabled.
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Re: Has anyone bought Nut Pi?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:43 am

I do think you have to go into your user control panal on the gMail web site and configure it to enable POP3, and dissable SSL/SSH
And why would I want to broadcast my password to everyone listening? Just because Messenger can't handle SSL? I'd rather use a client capable of doing that, thanks. Actually I have MPro which claims to do SSL and IMAP but since it doesn't validate certificates I'm not sure if it isn't more of a bogus feature. I'm using alpine instead over SSH connection.

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Re: Has anyone bought Nut Pi?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:20 pm

Tide wrote:And why would I want to broadcast my password to everyone listening? Just because Messenger can't handle SSL?
You are still brodcasting it anyway even f it is encrypted. The only people that would be looking for it are those with negitive intentions, and the enryption will not stop them. You do not think that there are people out there that keep tables of all prime factors up to 1024 bit values? To be realistic if some one realy wants your pwd, no standard reversable encryption is going to keep it from them.
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Re: Has anyone bought Nut Pi?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:40 pm

Slight missword in my last post.

There are people that keep tables of Prims up to 1024bit values. And prime factoring of any value is not as time intensive with these tables and a well thought algorithm. As a result the currently used methods of Private key/ public key encryption are easily crackable. Any one that did want to know anothers pwd would only need to save a copy of your packet stream and then at the leasure of there available processing power determine the private key.

If you do not want any one that does bad things to descover your pwd, there is only one way to do that:
NEVER SEND IT OUT, NEVER USE IT ON ANY SYSTEM THAT IS CONNECTED TO ANY NETWORK.

Sorry. Enough ranting, for me here. Lets try to get this thread back to the original topic.



I am quite interested in some more detail on the NutPi product sweet.
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Re: Has anyone bought Nut Pi?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:53 pm

DavidS wrote: I am quite interested in some more detail on the NutPi product sweet.
https://www.riscosopen.org/news/article ... spberry-pi

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Re: Has anyone bought Nut Pi?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:10 pm

nr. wrote:
DavidS wrote: I am quite interested in some more detail on the NutPi product sweet.
https://www.riscosopen.org/news/article ... spberry-pi

nr.
Yes I have read that. I am thinking about buying NutPi. Though first:
Is the NutPi version of the DDE one of the things that is locked to the RPi?
Has anyone used WIMP-Works? What are its Pros/Cons as aposed to SE + a good compiler suite?
Any one that has used Gutenprint; Is it as inclusive as it claims?

The other questions I have are better for the ROOL forums.
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Re: Has anyone bought Nut Pi?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:20 pm

DavidS wrote: Is the NutPi version of the DDE one of the things that is locked to the RPi?
As I understand, it's *all* locked to the Pi, and won't install on any other platform.
DavidS wrote: Has anyone used WIMP-Works? What are its Pros/Cons as aposed to SE + a good compiler suite?
Briefly, but I've no idea what SE is, so can't compare. I've only played with it, not actually made anything useful, so can't in any way comment authoritatively. But I can confirm that it installs, and runs without problems.
DavidS wrote: Any one that has used Gutenprint; Is it as inclusive as it claims?
Yup - as mentioned elsewhere, there's no driver for my HP1012 in the base RISC OS printers folder, so I installed Gutenprint. It seems to do everything I've asked of it so far with no problems. Very good.

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Re: Has anyone bought Nut Pi?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:38 pm

nr. wrote:
DavidS wrote: Is the NutPi version of the DDE one of the things that is locked to the RPi?
As I understand, it's *all* locked to the Pi, and won't install on any other platform.
I am primarily speaking about the compile targets, not the suite it self. Will it compile for older targets? Will it produce code that is compatable with 26-bit addressing? etc. I do not mind having to run the DDE on the RPi, I just want the software that I compile with it to run on other hardware.
DavidS wrote: Has anyone used WIMP-Works? What are its Pros/Cons as aposed to SE + a good compiler suite?
Briefly, but I've no idea what SE is, so can't compare. I've only played with it, not actually made anything useful, so can't in any way comment authoritatively. But I can confirm that it installs, and runs without problems.
Sorry about that. Strong Edit (bad habit of abreviating).
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Re: Has anyone bought Nut Pi?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:54 pm

Also I have posted a topic on ROOL regarding my DDE questions.
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Re: Has anyone bought Nut Pi?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:01 pm

ooh, while I remember - when installing Gutenprint I came across a problem whereby !GemPrin was called, rather than !GemPrint. Easy enough to fix, but worth mentioning in case anyone else stumbles across it. I don't have the exact details to hand right now, but if you find the problem, it'll be immediately apparent.
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Re: Has anyone bought Nut Pi?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:40 pm

While we're talking about NutPi, has anyone had any luck with the installation of SafeStore? The installer seems to work, but then every time I use the SafeStore utility from !Configure I just get a message that the application hasn't been seen.

I tried re-installing, no joy. I can't use the de-installer, as the button is greyed out, so I just removed the configure item from !Boot.RO500Hook.Res.Configure. I couldn't find an item in $.Apps to remove.

Any ideas? Is there a way to perform a manual installation from the NutPi package?

Ta,
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