simplesi
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What does RISCOS bring to the RPi party

Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:47 pm

:)
What does it do that I can't get from Raspbian?

Simon
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pygmy_giant
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Re: What does RISCOS bring to the RPi party

Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:52 pm

faster - more predictable

Cloudcentric
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Re: What does RISCOS bring to the RPi party

Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:25 am

simplesi wrote::)
What does it do that I can't get from Raspbian?

Simon
It is like comparing Apples and Ooranges.

Linux is a well known and often used O/S which has all the bells and whistles one would expect in the 21st Century.

RiscOS was released in the days of the basic PC (20+ years ago) and therefore it is very minimal and tightly written to maximize resources.

I would say it brings to the "party" a more basic way of undertaking tasks and probably a better learning tool for someone who wants to understand how to achieve a lot with so little............
I know everything about nothing"

simplesi
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Re: What does RISCOS bring to the RPi party

Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:33 am

Ta :)
I had no idea what it did - just seen everyone going whoop! :)

Simon
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Burngate
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Re: What does RISCOS bring to the RPi party

Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:20 am

RISC OS is in many ways simpler than Linux, and so is easier to understand.
So someone coming into programming and starting with Linux will end up with a mind-picture of a fuzzy grey cloud called Linux with their programs hung off the side.
Starting with RISC OS, because the os is smaller, they will end up with a mind-picture in which the cloud is less grey and fuzzy.

If you want to write an application to run on the desktop, that is using the multitasking environment, RISC OS will bend your brain into strange new dimensions, you will begin to see the world in a more hyperchromic light, and you will become a better person.

simplesi
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Re: What does RISCOS bring to the RPi party

Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:54 am

you will begin to see the world in a more hyperchromic light, and you will become a better person.
Now I'm starting to think I'd better download and try it :)

Simon
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Grumpy Mike
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Re: What does RISCOS bring to the RPi party

Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:48 pm

simplesi wrote::)
What does it do that I can't get from Raspbian?
Simon
It kicks Linux of the machine and so makes it a much better machine. No more time being stolen from the hog of an operating system.

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Re: What does RISCOS bring to the RPi party

Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:16 pm

I always (in the day) said that the Arm was the definitive Risc CPU (in fact the only other one generally available was IBM's offering in the RT and R series) , RISC OS was a definitive OS and BBCBasic was also close to being definitive.

A word that has been lost under the bloatware available elsewhere.

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Re: What does RISCOS bring to the RPi party

Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:27 pm

NigelJK wrote:I always (in the day) said that the Arm was the definitive Risc CPU (in fact the only other one generally available was IBM's offering in the RT and R series) , RISC OS was a definitive OS and BBCBasic was also close to being definitive.
You are forgetting a few RISC CPUs from that era. Having worked on a DN10000 (PRISM RISC) in 1988, I'd say that *it* was the definitive RISC CPU (but mostly worked with a 68K based DN1000). More common during that era were the Sun workstations using the Sparc chip and yet another relatively common workstation (at least in Montreal in the late 80s) were MIPS based Silicon Graphics. In the US, the HP RISC based machines were pretty common too.

Apollo DomainOS was a very nice OS, unfortunately I dont have anything currently that can run it. As far as RISC of that era, I still own some original Sparc and MIPS based workstations, in working condition.

As for Basic... yeah I have fond memories of it, but in this day and age where we have Go, Python and Ruby, it'll stay that, fond memories :)
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Re: What does RISCOS bring to the RPi party

Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:47 pm

Linux is preemptive. you can't get round that, you're stuck with it stealing time

RISC OS is cooperative. If you want to take control, you can, just by not calling Wimp_Poll. Until you do, the Pi is yours.
Of course if you have something else running, that won't get serviced until you do, but that's your decision, not the OS's

Oh, and BASIC. You want to write spaghetti, you can. You want to do it more rationally, you can.
Learning why GOTO is bad is easier if you can try it and see the problems.

When learning to drive a car, it's a good idea to stick to the rules, because bad things can happen.
When learning programming, trial and error has almost zero cost, particularly on the Pi, and is a good way to find out the why's and wherefore's.

And in RISC OS BASIC, you have almost the whole power of the Pi at your fingertips, not just BASIC commands, but all the OS's swi calls, and if you want you've got the assembler built in.

I keep adding things to this post. This is my last edit, I promise.

There's something you want the Pi to do. It's not built in to the OS, but you think it would be a nice thing to have.
So write your own module, using the BASIC assembler. The format for it is in the manual. It may take some learning, but I've done it so you can.

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Re: What does RISCOS bring to the RPi party

Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:27 am

I had a look at Wiki's entry for the Sparc Station (nice machine, poor OS) and couldn't find how many actual instructions there were on it. I know (because I have an RT6150 tucked away, nice machine, poor OS) that IBM came out of nearly 20 years research into Risc CPU's with a CPU that had 128 instructions and many many registers. The odd thing is that Wiki is obsessed about registers and doesn't bother tell you how many instructions are on the processor. It also cranks on about how 'commercially unsucessful' most RISC processors were. I couldn't find mention of the Arm until they were put into mobile phones, which is odd because production of the early Arm processors far outstripped anything Intel had and AMD were just a twinkle in someone's eye. Manufacturers bought a license to make their own so many were made to be put in Video recorders, cameras, washing machines etc etc.

I still think the original Arm processors with originally 15 instructions, but raised to 16 to include the MUL operator to get their MIP's rating, is definitive. You would have had to had a very thick Brass neck to predict that everything you needed to write an OS was there and then do it.

The Barrel pipeline was also years ahead of it's time.

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Re: What does RISCOS bring to the RPi party

Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:35 am

Linux is noisy, Risc OS is quiet. If you're into robotics, that's all you need to know.

winston
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Re: What does RISCOS bring to the RPi party

Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:06 pm

NigelJK wrote:The odd thing is that Wiki is obsessed about registers and doesn't bother tell you how many instructions are on the processor.
That's because RISC is a bit of a misnomer: RISC doesn't mean "reduced" as in "few instructions" but "reduced" as in reduced complexity of the instructions (as opposed to CISC, which has complex instructions). There are a number of CISC processors with far fewer instructions than nearly every RISC processor. But the CISC's instruction set is far more complex despite fewer instructions.

RISC would be better termed "load and store architecture" - the feature that marks RISC from CISC is that the ALU operations don't have a million and one different addressing modes, nor are there instructions that do thirty different things and take eighty clock cycles to execute.

pieman1968
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Re: What does RISCOS bring to the RPi party

Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:31 pm

So you are saying that if you want to make embedded/robotic systems and use the pi as the board rather than another board then RISCOS will be faster and likely to be interrupted less.

Are there limitations with what can be done with BBC basic re hardware, GPIO etc?
Is it safe to use RISCOS with commands sent over the net?
What will be missing from not using Raspbian, libraries?

Thinking I better dust off those 30year old BBC basic and assembly language skills. Not sure if any of those brain cells still exist up there though!

regards

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Re: What does RISCOS bring to the RPi party

Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:14 pm

Reading/writing the GPIO pins is pretty easy in BASIC, using the !GPIO module that's available and SYS calls. I've been playing with flashing LEDs, reading push buttons etc. All pretty straightforward.

Also worth noting that it's possible to include inline assembler in BASIC for anything that BASIC can't handle directly. I've used this method for outputting to an LCD display connected to the UART pins for example.
--
nr.

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DavidS
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Re: What does RISCOS bring to the RPi party

Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:43 pm

RISC OS brings a lot to the party; here is a short summary of some of what RISC gives us that is missing from most other modern OSes (yes I class RISC OS as a modern OS).

I will also give some of the negatives of RISC OS so as to be as unbiased as I can.

With everything here this is just one point of view.

1) RISC OS allows complete control to the program.

2) BBC BASIC on RISC OS can access ANY of the hardware directly. Though a bit slower than assembly because it is interpreted.

3) RISC OS is very easy to understand completely.

4) Cooperative multitasking means that the control of the systems time is very predictable.

5) RISC OS is very modular and well documented. If you find a bug (and understand programming in assembly) you can look up the module in the RISC OS PRM and write a replacement module.

6) If there is some small feature that you wish to add to the OS or most applications, the system is very easy to extend, and so are most applications.

7) There are add-on's that allow programs to preemptively multitask (if the program is written to do so). This means that you can have all of the above and still have Preemptive Multitasking for applications that truly benefit from it (or you can have your cake and eat it to).

8) There are a lot of good applications available for every thing from DTP through Graphics editing to Games, not to mention the vast amount of development software (99% of the time it is easy to find the tool, program, etc. you need/want).

Now the NEGATIVES:

1) RISC OS does NOT YET support as much hardware as Linux.

2) Do to a smaller developer community there are NOT YET as many modern applications available such as:
  • An HTML 5 + WEBM capable web browser
    A free IMAP capable E-Mail client.
    A recent Java VM.
3) The default appearance is a bit dated (though this is extremely easy to change).
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Re: What does RISCOS bring to the RPi party

Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:21 pm

One advantage of RiscOS compared to many of the larger ('bloatware') operating systems is that RiscOS usually gives priority to whatever the 'user' wants to do, rather than to whatever the operating system happens to be doing. RiscOS performs very few operating system dependent background 'tasks'. So simple user tasks such as editing a document or running a programme are usually very quick and responsive on Risc OS. Especially so on the 1GHz ARM processor on the RPi :-)

RiscOS originally ran on an 8Mhz ARM processor back in the days of yore, so the processor speed has increased by a factor of >100 in 25 years. However the RiscOS operating system speed has not been reduced proportionately to match (as per MS et al:-)

Ralph

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DavidS
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Re: What does RISCOS bring to the RPi party

Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:17 am

fladda wrote:ORiscOS originally ran on an 8Mhz ARM processor back in the days of yore, so the processor speed has increased by a factor of >100 in 25 years. However the RiscOS operating system speed has not been reduced proportionately to match (as per MS et al:-)

Ralph
Ah yes...

It seems that RISC OS gets faster and more responsive with each new release (even on the same HW).
RISC OS 3.71 seems to use only about 75% of the processor time of RISC OS 3.5 on the same machine for the same task, and RISC OS 5.16 about 60% the time of RISC OS 3.71. It does seem as though RO5 is way ahead of ROL Select/Adjust.
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Re: What does RISCOS bring to the RPi party

Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:52 am

RiscOS appears to be lacking a ssh server and a vnc server both of which I find useful since I am using the Raspberry Pi headless. I can operate the raspberry pi from a desktop, netbook or tablet depending on the situation.

It is easy enough to swap SD cards so I guess a person could use Raspbian when that seems to have the edge and RISCOS when it seems to have an edge. I'm not sure that works so well in an educational setting because in the end it would mean more to learn and time is limited. As far as education that is directly applicable beyond just the Raspberry Pi I think the edge would have to go to Raspbian because Debian can run on so many different platforms and a lot of the Open source software that runs on Linux has already been ported to other operating systems. For example Apache runs on many different operating systems and it runs on the Raspberry Pi. Python is compatible with third party projects like scipi http://www.scipy.org/ and matplotlib http://matplotlib.org/ which appear to have good educational value. Another example is Git (a relatively new and easy to use distributed revision control system).

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Re: What does RISCOS bring to the RPi party

Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:01 am

There is a VNC server for RISC OS, though at the moment I can not remmember the name of it.
I am not so sure about SSH, though I would be quite surprized if there is not one. I have no need for these things Sorry i could not be a bit more helpful.

As to usig the RPi headless, is the computer that you are using as a VNC terminal another RPi?
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Re: What does RISCOS bring to the RPi party

Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:25 am

DavidS wrote:There is a VNC server for RISC OS, though at the moment I can not remmember the name of it.
I am not so sure about SSH, though I would be quite surprized if there is not one. I have no need for these things Sorry i could not be a bit more helpful.

As to usig the RPi headless, is the computer that you are using as a VNC terminal another RPi?
No, not from another RPi. Typically from any of a desktop, netbook or Android tablet. I'd like to try an android phone but I don't have one.
This page says there is no ssh server. http://gopherproxy.meulie.net/sdf.org/0 ... RiscOS.txt
As far as a VNC server goes. I wonder. For example I came across this:
http://compgroups.net/comp.sys.acorn.ap ... ly/1231253
and much older
http://www.riscosopen.org/forum/forums/5/topics/294
Anyway I am a little curious is anyone has a vnc server working on the R-Pi with riscos. I would think that preemptive multitasking would be needed to keep a vnc server running reliably?

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Re: What does RISCOS bring to the RPi party

Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:27 pm

Anyway I am a little curious is anyone has a vnc server working on the R-Pi with riscos. I would think that preemptive multitasking would be needed to keep a vnc server running reliably?
While I have no use for VNC:
This seems to be a common missunderstanding of Cooperative Multitasking vs. Preemptive Multitasking. You see in a cooperative multitasking enviroment any appliication has the freedome to push the limits, yes this means that any single task can take over by never polling.

Now more to the point becouse of the loose memory protection and modularity of RISC OS, I would imagine that something time critical like a VNC server would hook into the centasecond timer. Also even if it did not remember that TCP/IP is stateless so trying to do anything time crytical over TCP is a bit of lunacy, in most cases. This makes it where it would be very easy to implement the timing for something like a VNC server.

And finaly; you do not need multiasking at all for a VNC server, there is even one for DOS.
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Re: What does RISCOS bring to the RPi party

Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:53 pm

DavidS wrote:
Anyway I am a little curious is anyone has a vnc server working on the R-Pi with riscos. I would think that preemptive multitasking would be needed to keep a vnc server running reliably?
While I have no use for VNC:
This seems to be a common missunderstanding of Cooperative Multitasking vs. Preemptive Multitasking. You see in a cooperative multitasking enviroment any appliication has the freedome to push the limits, yes this means that any single task can take over by never polling.

Now more to the point becouse of the loose memory protection and modularity of RISC OS, I would imagine that something time critical like a VNC server would hook into the centasecond timer. Also even if it did not remember that TCP/IP is stateless so trying to do anything time crytical over TCP is a bit of lunacy, in most cases. This makes it where it would be very easy to implement the timing for something like a VNC server.

And finaly; you do not need multiasking at all for a VNC server, there is even one for DOS.
I remember dos and windows 3.1: shudder at the thought. I was asking about a reliable vnc server. So I am thinking that if the Raspberry Pi is to be used by beginner programmers and not experts only, then having an operating system with some preemptive clout would be a big advantage. I'm kind of surprised that is not obvious. Unix and operating systems derived from it were designed to be muti-user and multi-tasking and the last thing wanted is one user to make an error that would crash the whole system.

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Re: What does RISCOS bring to the RPi party

Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:27 pm

danpeirce wrote:I remember dos and windows 3.1: shudder at the thought. I was asking about a reliable vnc server. So I am thinking that if the Raspberry Pi is to be used by beginner programmers and not experts only, then having an operating system with some preemptive clout would be a big advantage. I'm kind of surprised that is not obvious. Unix and operating systems derived from it were designed to be muti-user and multi-tasking and the last thing wanted is one user to make an error that would crash the whole system.
Do not compare Windows 3.1 to RISC. That is like Comparing Windows NT 3.51 to Unix System 6. Windows NT 3.51 and Windows 3.1x were very unstable, in a large part due to a verry strange and contrived API, thus programmers had trouble getting it correct, even M$ developers. Yet both Unix sys 6 and Windows NT are preemptive multitasking.

Now to RISC OS, there is suport for preemptive mutitasking, for those apps written to use it. Also how much better timed you want than hooking a reliable 100 times per second interupt? Further more i understand that the current builds of RISC OS 5.1x have aditional support for hard real time tasks, though I have no use for the new stuff as hard realtime has always been a simple matter on RISC OS thanks to t being primarily a cooperaive multitasking enviroment.

Do you forget all of the troubles with Unix, Amiga OS, and other preemptive multitasking systems when in the 80's and 90's when they were first put to Hard Real time tasks? The task schedular kept getting in the way. So developers stuck with Cooperative Multitasking systems for Hard Real Time tasks. And even now the Hard Real Time support that has been added to *nix systems and other preemptive multitasking systems is little more than a crude work around hack (that has had a decade to be smoothed out).

So yes Preemptive systems have there place, though for relible timing single tasking and cooperative multitasking has always been ahead of the game.

All of this said your use of the word reliable to describe anytnhing that communicates over TCP on any system is a joke. TCP is by its very nature a problem if you need reliale timing. Most clients and serers for sub protocols of TCP go to extreme lengths to cover up the timing loss and occasional dropped packet (usualy greater than 40% over the internet [be thankful for resending of packets]).
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Re: What does RISCOS bring to the RPi party

Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:50 pm

Also your statement about one windows program bringing down the whole system is more about memry protecton, not the multitasing model. Windows 3.1x did not have any memory protecion (even with "protected Memory" enabled [what they calle 'Protected Memory' whas actually on demand paging to disk]). RISC OS Has a decent level of memory protection. It is very rare to see any one task bring down any other task when it messes up. I actually see a task bring down he system more often on Linux than on RISC OS, givn everything being equal.
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