skypi
Posts: 121
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Arch Linux on Pi3 refusing to boot unless hdmi connected

Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:32 pm

Not sure if correct place to post, but if anyone else trying arch headless on a pi3 and they have just done an upgrade, that is what it is...

mind boggling... they obviously don't do any testing of common use cases (i.e. running arch headless)

can you use arch on a product? in my opinion no!

what a tricky problem to solve, it was obviously caused by the arch upgrade, so I had not idea if it was some applications systemd unit causing problems, something with the firewall or network generally or some general mess up in the update release.

So every time I hooked it up to a monitor to see what problem was in one place on one segment on firewall it worked, when I moved it back to usual home on another segment of the firewall it failed... did not even get an ip address on the network. Occurred to me what it was when I tried it in both places with no hdmi connected, failed in both places, connect hdmi, works in both places.... what a way to waste a few hours eh!

I think arch linux bunch should work on their quality standards!

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Arch Linux on Pi3 refusing to boot unless hdmi connected

Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:37 pm

skypi wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:32 pm
Not sure if correct place to post, but if anyone else trying arch headless on a pi3 and they have just done an upgrade, that is what it is...

mind boggling... they obviously don't do any testing of common use cases (i.e. running arch headless)

can you use arch on a product? in my opinion no!

what a tricky problem to solve, it was obviously caused by the arch upgrade, so I had not idea if it was some applications systemd unit causing problems, something with the firewall or network generally or some general mess up in the update release.

So every time I hooked it up to a monitor to see what problem was in one place on one segment on firewall it worked, when I moved it back to usual home on another segment of the firewall it failed... did not even get an ip address on the network. Occurred to me what it was when I tried it in both places with no hdmi connected, failed in both places, connect hdmi, works in both places.... what a way to waste a few hours eh!

I think arch linux bunch should work on their quality standards!

Preaching to the wrong developers, see:

https://archlinuxarm.org/forum

.
Take what I advise as advice not the utopian holy grail, and it is gratis !!

skypi
Posts: 121
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Re: Arch Linux on Pi3 refusing to boot unless hdmi connected

Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:02 am

I got banned off there for calling the arch-holes names previously!

but still I wondered if it was latest raspberry firmware and I wrongly blamed arch-devs as they simply trustingly posted latest raspberry firmware ??????????

still without testing the clucking thing eh! without any warranty as to fitness to purpose, much like our own government eh!

pidd
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Re: Arch Linux on Pi3 refusing to boot unless hdmi connected

Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:10 am

Can you force a framebuffer and see if that helps?

skypi
Posts: 121
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Re: Arch Linux on Pi3 refusing to boot unless hdmi connected

Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:17 am

why should I spend time trying to tunnel through a mountain/dod some stupid funt should never have made in the first place

framebuffers? it's clucking headless!

it should boot headless no clucking problem....

it was working OK some stupid cluckety clucking funt clucked up in the loop!

I expect actually there are several, worse than amateurs, actually highly paid professional scumbags in the loop!

like the reason pi zero-w not mass available.. marketing innit! they want you to buy a £50 compute module eh!


M_P
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Re: Arch Linux on Pi3 refusing to boot unless hdmi connected

Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:55 am

This is a lot to unpack...

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kerry_s
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Re: Arch Linux on Pi3 refusing to boot unless hdmi connected

Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:01 am

M_P wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:55 am
This is a lot to unpack...
unpack?

cleverca22
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Re: Arch Linux on Pi3 refusing to boot unless hdmi connected

Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:02 am

how do you know its not actually booting?
have you checked to see if ssh works?

i see a lot of people claiming the same thing with raspi-os, when vnc doesnt auto-start, because xorg didnt start on boot

skypi
Posts: 121
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Re: Arch Linux on Pi3 refusing to boot unless hdmi connected

Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:50 pm

Hi, yeah, well, simple ssh into the thing, or even just pinging it....

basically, fact is... plug an hdmi cable in it boots... don't plug an hdmi cable in, no record of it even attempting to boot in journalctl!

skypi
Posts: 121
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Re: Arch Linux on Pi3 refusing to boot unless hdmi connected

Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:57 pm

kerry_s wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:34 am
your using the wrong arch.
https://github.com/manjaro-arm/rpi4-images
I was wondering if manjaro had done their own derivation of arch builds rather than touching the arch linux arm bunches attempt?

Still I'm wondering if its raspberry pi firmware snapshot... like someone must have added a "dont work if hdmi not connected" line of clucking code eh ?????? and no record of it trying to boot in journalctl eh! seems high probability firmware... or other actor...
Last edited by skypi on Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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kerry_s
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Re: Arch Linux on Pi3 refusing to boot unless hdmi connected

Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:23 am

arch linux has always been diy, if something went wrong it's something you did or didn't do.
these days it's a breeze to get a arch install, but you still need to roll up your sleeves & do some work.
there docs are pretty strait forward & cover lots of things.

maybe you should just stick with raspberry os, rather than trying to use something above your skill set.

skypi
Posts: 121
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Re: Arch Linux on Pi3 refusing to boot unless hdmi connected

Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:51 pm

Good one !.... "above my skill level", it's my fault that arch linux works fine before an upgrade then after an upgrade it refuses to boot so badly it does not even get to writing to the journal... and provides no clue as to the problem, and that's because it's above my skill level eh! you appear to have gaslighting skills eh!

Turns out it was dtoverlay=vc4-kms-v3d

which previously worked OK and now blocks boot without hdmi connected, comment it out and it now boots OK without hdmi connected.

I would not blame arch for any application errors, like I would not expect them to test every application, but to test the boot sequence to make sure it does not complete fail I would expect them to do.

The reason to use arch is of course the latest versions of software, all pre-compiled for download, but If anyone had like several of these headless machines in the field and a single update took them all down so badly you could not even ssh in to them that is going to cause a lot of grief. Like you would not want to retreive a pi-zero bird cam from within the nest box to fix an arch upgrade mess up would you!

and indeed that is why I only use arch on a few pi's as arch is so untrustworthy post upgrade. I use raspos on most.

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Arch Linux on Pi3 refusing to boot unless hdmi connected

Sat Jul 31, 2021 5:00 pm

skypi wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:57 pm
kerry_s wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:34 am
your using the wrong arch.
https://github.com/manjaro-arm/rpi4-images
I was wondering if manjaro had done their own derivation of arch builds rather than touching the arch linux arm bunches attempt?

Still I'm wondering if its raspberry pi firmware snapshot... like someone must have added a "dont work if hdmi not connected" line of clucking code eh ?????? and no record of it trying to boot in journalctl eh! seems high probability firmware... or other actor...

Manjaro is very much based on Arch Linux Arm, maybe grab a spare SD Card and then test to see if it is any better for your use case ;)
Take what I advise as advice not the utopian holy grail, and it is gratis !!

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kerry_s
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Re: Arch Linux on Pi3 refusing to boot unless hdmi connected

Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:43 pm

Turns out it was dtoverlay=vc4-kms-v3d
manjaro default is fkms, kms on arch has been freezing at the desktop.
there's no need for kms on a headless machine.

skypi
Posts: 121
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Re: Arch Linux on Pi3 refusing to boot unless hdmi connected

Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:55 pm

The point is, vc4-kms-v3d was working fine headless, then post upgrade it screws up big time headless! (I just checked it on another arch node not been on for a while and that boots headless no problem with kms-v3d

I mean sure, a node permanently headless does not need it unless... think you need to to do mmal hardware encoding stuff, but fkms is ok for that...

but still, an update pushed a new version of firmware that crashed the boot sequence that was previously working, to my mind a distro for embedded should ensure you get to wifi working and ethernet working...

a previous arch update pushed a non-working broadcom wifi driver which stopped any pi zero's running headless from being able to be accessed, plug in a dongle wifi and it was fine but broadcom onboard wifi not working...

to my mind ridiculous screw ups... I mean at the pacman -Syuu stage a doc file could be displayed to give heads up of pitfalls the upgrade may bring, that would be a step in right direction

I mean generally arch linux arm is great, but these stupid screw ups eh!

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kerry_s
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Re: Arch Linux on Pi3 refusing to boot unless hdmi connected

Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:33 pm

it's not an arch thing, it's an upstream thing.
arch uses rpi kernel sources.

skypi
Posts: 121
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Re: Arch Linux on Pi3 refusing to boot unless hdmi connected

Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:12 am

kind of my point is, I understand that/what-arch-is, automated builds and that, but, there is a level of testing that should be done at core level, wifi OK and Ethernet OK if either are available, and dont clucking crash if they aren't eh! and embedded systems kind of imply headless, and I reckon i did not add that kms-vc4 line that is arch default? It's like they claim to supoort this that or the other manufacturer then at least test all the onboard wifi and ethernet chips of those devices get to up and running before pushing... anyway arch is what it is from whoever!

at least a warning from pacman that some iffy stuff has to be passed for this or that dependency to be working and that as security updates you should do this or that... which is beyond present pacman capabilities I think....

I was going to say running a single arch node is useful as a test for what is upstream from the closed-source bunch eh!
Last edited by skypi on Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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kerry_s
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Re: Arch Linux on Pi3 refusing to boot unless hdmi connected

Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:27 am

skypi wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:12 am
kind of my point is, I understand that/what-arch-is, automated builds and that, but, there is a level of testing that should be done at core level, wifi OK and Ethernet OK if either are available, and dont clucking crash if they aren't eh! and embedded systems kind of imply headless, and I reckon i did not add that kms-vc4 line that is arch default?

at least a warning from pacman that some iffy stuff has to be passed for this or that dependency to be working and that as security updates you should do this or that... which is beyond present pacman capabilities I think....

I was going to say running a single arch node is useful as a test for what is upstream from the closed-source bunch eh!
that's the very reason i recommend manjaro based on arch.
they have, like how debian does:
stable
unstable
testing

bonus, the maintainers themselves are in the forum, you can converse directly to the people who matter, fixes have even been pushed out on the same day on some occasions.

skypi
Posts: 121
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Re: Arch Linux on Pi3 refusing to boot unless hdmi connected

Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:34 am

having dissed arch so much, think i might have a crack at gentoo (and a read of linux from scratch) LOL

kind of can only blame yourself then! as long as you surmount the bootstrap problem and triple check everything you read, as linux moves so fast eh!

default policy, trust closed source upgrade = no (without at least a cursory test)

default policy, trust no-one eh! the whole (gpg) web of trust relies on you trusting someone else eh!
Last edited by skypi on Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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kerry_s
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Re: Arch Linux on Pi3 refusing to boot unless hdmi connected

Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:06 am

skypi wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:34 am
having dissed arch so much, think i might have a crack at gentoo (and a read of linux from scratch) LOL

kind of can only blame yourself then! as long as you surmount the bootstrap problem and triple check everything you read, as linux moves so fast eh!
you'll find most linux is basically the same under the hood, just learn a popular 1 really good & you'll pretty much know them all.
gui's on the other hand, you have what you have & just try to make it work.

i've got my replacement raspad 3 coming, so i been spending most of my time on ui setups, just been using my mouse left click only to test ideas.
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skypi
Posts: 121
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Re: Arch Linux on Pi3 refusing to boot unless hdmi connected

Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:12 am

I would say it is very much NOT the same, for instance the arch selection of which cron daemon (not provided by default) to run eh! (yeah well can do cron with systemd but...) and the arch page on cron daemons is a great collection of options....

and then if you drill into detail of the freaking compile options of each particular cron daemon...

very much not the same...

GUI's eh! you are right! then it gets into reams of code and subtle decisions....

cleverca22
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Re: Arch Linux on Pi3 refusing to boot unless hdmi connected

Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:06 am

skypi wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:34 am
having dissed arch so much, think i might have a crack at gentoo (and a read of linux from scratch) LOL
having run gentoo and LFS for years, nixos is a far better alternative, once you can get over the learning curve

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
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Re: Arch Linux on Pi3 refusing to boot unless hdmi connected

Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:05 am

skypi wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:02 am
I got banned off there for calling the arch-holes names previously!
Please make sure the same doesn't happen here. Your posts do seem quite angry.

Have you tried Raspberry Pi OS? Does that exhibit the same problems? Any reasons you want a different OS to the standard?

All Linux have pretty much the same kernel under the skin
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Working in the Applications Team.

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