hippy
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Re: Scratch 3.0 please fix it NOW

Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:12 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:47 pm
WebGL 1.0 Final Specification was released early 2011
Indeed, as anyone who can Google would discover. But when did WebGL become readily available for Scratch users to use in browsers ? That's the mode of use which Scratch 2 is specifically designed and intended for.

In my book there's little good which comes from designing something which its target audience cannot readily use.

But what they did, and whether they could have done it differently seems rather immaterial to where we are now. I know very little about graphics frameworks or hardware acceleration, and much of the rest is 'greek to me', but, from what I can ascertain -

WebGL is based on OpenGLES 2. WebGL 2 is based on OpenGLES 3. The Pi's VideoCore IV only has support for OpenGLES 2. So, for WebGL 2 - which is what it appears Scratch 3 is using - that cannot be accelerated and has to be done in software.

That could correlate with jamesh's comment that future Pi's may better support Scratch 3 more fully than current generation Pi's do.

Maybe someone who does understand more about this field than me can clarify and educate ?

And, just because there may be no current support for accelerated WebGL 2, perhaps no chance of that with the Pi's we currently have, it does seem that things could be improved if Scratch 3 were doing things somewhat differently.

It seems the main problem is that Scratch 3 is continually rendering its Scratch 3 'stage' area, so, if it did less of that, the CPU usage for rendering should be less.

chinaguy
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Re: Scratch 3.0 please fix it NOW

Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:45 am

Looks like I will have to buy 30 new RP4s :evil:
My other computer is a VIC20.

jamesh
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Re: Scratch 3.0 please fix it NOW

Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:47 am

I'd try the new 3D driver first....
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chinaguy
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Re: Scratch 3.0 please fix it NOW

Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:03 am

As long as the graphics updates are included in the PiNet repository as I just spent a week building a PiNet server to use with my Primary Classes in school. Also I hope someone roles out Stretch with a new update of PiNet as this will make me very happy!
My other computer is a VIC20.

jamesh
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Re: Scratch 3.0 please fix it NOW

Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:21 am

chinaguy wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:03 am
As long as the graphics updates are included in the PiNet repository as I just spent a week building a PiNet server to use with my Primary Classes in school. Also I hope someone roles out Stretch with a new update of PiNet as this will make me very happy!
They are certainly in the Buster image just released which works on all models of Pi. I do not know about PiNET.
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fruitoftheloom
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Re: Scratch 3.0 please fix it NOW

Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:25 am

chinaguy wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:03 am
As long as the graphics updates are included in the PiNet repository as I just spent a week building a PiNet server to use with my Primary Classes in school. Also I hope someone roles out Stretch with a new update of PiNet as this will make me very happy!

PiNET is not the responsibility of the Raspberry Pi Foundation, you need to contact the Developer of the software:

http://pinet.org.uk/
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mikerr
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Re: Scratch 3.0 please fix it NOW

Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:46 am

Fixed in buster (and mods probably had to bite their tongue before release)
Last edited by mikerr on Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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chinaguy
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Re: Scratch 3.0 please fix it NOW

Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:27 am

Just downloaded and installed Buster,

Raspberry Pi 3b+/Scratch 3.0 from scratch.mit.edu
Scratch 3.0 CPU running at 60% when not running a series of Scratch 3.0 Scripts
When Running CPU running at 70-95 %, but more at the 70% usage level with spikes up to 90%(running Pacman in 2 Scripts)

Big improvement as makes Scratch 3.0 usable if still a bit sluggish , but when not running the code you can easily drag and drop blocks of code around to make scrips. Well give it more testing tomorrow in the classroom.

The Raspberry Pi Foundation promotes PiNet so should be monitoring the progress of its development to make sure it meets the requirements of classroom teachers like me!
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jamesh
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Re: Scratch 3.0 please fix it NOW

Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:45 am

chinaguy wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:27 am
The Raspberry Pi Foundation promotes PiNet so should be monitoring the progress of its development to make sure it meets the requirements of classroom teachers like me!
You would need to talk to the Foundation about that - the engineers posting here are employed by Trading. PiNET is not something we know about.
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Gbaman
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Re: Scratch 3.0 please fix it NOW

Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:22 am

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:25 am
chinaguy wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:03 am
As long as the graphics updates are included in the PiNet repository as I just spent a week building a PiNet server to use with my Primary Classes in school. Also I hope someone roles out Stretch with a new update of PiNet as this will make me very happy!

PiNET is not the responsibility of the Raspberry Pi Foundation, you need to contact the Developer of the software:

http://pinet.org.uk/
This is very true, PiNet isn't the responsibility of RPF or RPT (as they don't seem to have any interest in it), it is mine ;)

As with every new Pi release though (or even just new Raspbian release), everything is held under lock and key up until the second it is launched. As such, I get as much warning as every other average joe out there (aka, none).

So this mornings Pi4 launch is news to me. Although I was aware Buster was on the way, I will admit I wasn't expecting Raspbian Buster to be out till after standard Debain Buster was released early July 2019.
With the detailed code changelog for Raspbian just released in the past hour, I have already started taking a look at the required changes.
https://github.com/RPi-Distro/pi-gen/co ... 4...master

In saying all that though, without any sort of forewarning (and with a full time unrelated job), I can't make any sort of predictions of when PiNet will ship support for the Pi 4. Hopefully I will have a Pi 4 with me tomorrow though to start testing :D
Lead developer of PiNet, a free and opensource centralised user accounts and file storage system for Raspberry Pi classrooms used in over 200 schools across the world.
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rpiMike
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Re: Scratch 3.0 please fix it NOW

Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:26 pm

With the latest Raspbian Buster and Fake KMS enabled, CPU usage of Scratch in Chromium is down to about 40% on Pi3B+.

chinaguy
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Re: Scratch 3.0 please fix it NOW

Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:38 pm

Firstly let me thank Jamesh and Gbaman for their hard work and dedication to the cause of promoting Computer Science in education, I am truly humbled by their efforts.

As a primary computer science teacher I just need Scratch 3.0 to work on the Raspberry Pi and PiNet to allow me to run a classroom network. I am passionate about my mission to educate the next generation of computer literate students.(I will be teaching A Level again as the demand in students wishing to take the subject has increased, so I will have to brush up on Reverse Polish Notation!)
The Raspberry Pi and PiNet can provide almost the perfect platform on which to build a complete computer curriculum from KS1 to A Level.

If the Mod wishes they may close this thread as I am fully satisfied with the outcome.
My other computer is a VIC20.

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B.Goode
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Re: Scratch 3.0 please fix it NOW

Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:41 am

chinaguy wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:36 am
https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/scratc ... -upgrades/

Well an update would be most appreciated.


https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/scratc ... pberry-pi/

Note the prerequisite of using Raspbian Buster, and the recommendation to use an RPi 4 board.

hippy
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Re: Scratch 3.0 please fix it NOW

Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:02 pm

Excellent news and thanks for posting as I don't regularly read the blog and had seen no other announcement.

And many thanks to the Pi team and MIT for making it work. And working so well.

Even on my Pi 3B (non-plus) it runs reasonably well, certainly good enough to use. Idling it is about 45% CPU usage, rising to 55% with a simple program looping.

Memory use seemed fairly modest to me though that might be because I'm not familiar with what the various memory commands are actually reporting.

All-in a job well done.

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