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jbeale
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Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Fri May 10, 2013 8:42 pm

M33P wrote:If anyone's insane enough to try, then I would suggest removing the lens and sanding the mounting tube down to the IR filter. I think it should then "pop" out as I think the mount is welded (ultrasonic? thermal?) to the back plate and has a lip upon which the filter rests.
Great stuff. I thought the filter might be chemically bonded to the sensor (UV epoxy, etc) but if that drawing is accurate, then the path to an IR-sensitive camera looks fairly straightforward. It just needs time and care to slowly work away the plastic housing (sanding, milling machine etc.) I have seen trickier things done, eg. someone took an entire Sony HDR-FX1 (3CCD camcorder) with a fixed lens, sawed off the front and installed a bayonet type lens mount to use interchangeable lenses (and it worked) http://www.eidomedia.com/hdv/test/finito/finito.htm
Last edited by jbeale on Fri May 10, 2013 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

gordon77
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Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Fri May 10, 2013 8:46 pm

jamesh wrote:Nice job getting that apart M33P! Just a warning that according to Omnivision the IR filter will be almost/completely impossible to remove.
Just like they said you couldn't remove the lens ;)

SpringHalo
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Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Sat May 11, 2013 2:03 am

gsh wrote:No it wouldn't work, those serial lines are seriously high speed so having something in parallel would be a problem, plus the CSI spec doesn't allow for it.

3D isn't likely to be possible for quite some time... I wouldn't say forever though...

Gordon
What about having two Pis in tandem and having the slave send its data through some protocol or another? Is it possible to use the other CSI port to communicate with another Pi, or would ethernet have to be utilized?

M33P
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Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Sat May 11, 2013 7:32 pm

The IR filter is most definitely not fixed to the chip.

Why? Because in the process of trying to clean the top of the filter after my lens escapades left a particle or two on it, I now have dirt UNDER the damn thing wedged between the sensor and the filter. 1080p HD video, now with large floater!

Necessity is the mother of invention - I need to get the lens mount off without breaking the chip to get a 20um piece of dirt out.

MmmPi
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Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Sat May 11, 2013 8:19 pm

M33P wrote:Necessity is the mother of invention - I need to get the lens mount off without breaking the chip to get a 20um piece of dirt out.
1080 with a bit of dirt would bother me to no end!
Are you now planing to remove the lens mount before general availability of the camera modules?
.

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jbeale
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Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Sat May 11, 2013 9:58 pm

I certainly hope not! I think they are set to release in the next few weeks, no time for changes now. Anyway, most people want a working camera, with a lens, not a bare sensor chip. Just to be clear -the dirt happened when M33P scraped out the epoxy and unscrewed the lens, just to see if he could do it. The module was not designed for this and most people will probably never take apart their camera this way. If you do take it apart, you take responsibility for what happens- just like any other widget.

(Oh- maybe you mean, take the mount off just his one personal pre-release unit, before general release of the camera, not change the whole design for everyone. I'll be interested to hear what happens, if so.)

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Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Sat May 11, 2013 11:48 pm

M33P wrote:
I need to get the lens mount off without breaking the chip to get a 20um piece of dirt out.
Air duster?

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recantha2
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Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Sun May 12, 2013 4:11 pm

Perder wrote:
recantha2 wrote:
Perder wrote:Would love to see high rez, less compressed timelapse. if someone with the camera could put that together..?
I think I can manage that - will try and knock something up tonight.
awesome!
it doesn't have to be long, but different lighting conditions would be cool to see.
Finally got a break in the weather!
I'm hoping this is the kind of thing you wanted...

http://www.recantha.co.uk/blog/?p=4013
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jbeale
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Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Sun May 12, 2013 4:35 pm

Thanks for going to the effort! As far as I know, this is the first full-res video, and also the first outdoor video (not through a window), from the R-Pi camera. Not counting the 7-minute-per-frame high-altitude balloon.

On my screen the 720p and higher resolutions all look the same, and the colors a little bit "posterized" as if from aggressive noise reduction. I wonder if it is just my screen, or the Youtube compression. ...oh, "vbitrate=800" on the encoder command is probably not enough to show the full camera quality, you could probably use 10x more than that.

Perder
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Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Sun May 12, 2013 5:14 pm

Thanks a lot!
It's great to see some high rez stuff. There's clearly some heavy compression going on (I'm guessing a combination of the bitrate you set and youtube compression on top of that), but other than that it looks great, and I really can't wait to get one of my own :)
If I'm understanding correctly, this was filmed at 2592×[email protected] with a bitrate of 800kbps? To me the bitrate is too low, but I'm not gonna steal more of your time. Technical question though, is it hard to get 10-bit raw images out of the camera, or is it just a matter of using a different string of code?

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recantha2
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Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Sun May 12, 2013 7:52 pm

Here's a link to my blog. There's a couple of hi-res images on there that haven't been mucked around with:
http://www.recantha.co.uk/blog/?p=4015

They're of the same subject, but I just thought I'd post both for the hell of it :-)
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cyrano
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Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Sun May 12, 2013 8:50 pm

recantha2 wrote:Here's a link to my blog. There's a couple of hi-res images on there that haven't been mucked around with:
http://www.recantha.co.uk/blog/?p=4015

They're of the same subject, but I just thought I'd post both for the hell of it :-)
Thx for those. They look really, really well. 6 MP should be good enough for most picture needs, except for the high-end, but then I'd need a photographer too :lol:

poing
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Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Sun May 12, 2013 9:58 pm

You're not looking at what 6MP (or was it 5) can deliver. The little lens is not that capable. Although for $25 I'd say it's pretty good.

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jbeale
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Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Mon May 13, 2013 6:52 am

Looks like you are right about the lens. I had a look at a website that sells lenses for 1/4-inch format cameras (typically security cameras) and they do not have anything to deliver a 5 megapixel image to a 1/4 inch sensor. Going up a step to an industrial optics supplier (Edmund Optics), even their $1000 lenses do not quite meet the spec, it is fairly extreme in terms of cycles or line pairs per mm.

Code: Select all

Imager Characteristics:           X         Y              Other
Number of effective pixels       2592   1944 	Total:5038848
Pixel pitch in µm:                    1.4      1.4 	 
Effective imaging area dimension (in mm): 	3.63 	2.72 	Diagonal:4.54 
Monochrome Nyquist Frequency in cycles/mm: 	357 	357 	 
Green Nyquist Frequency in cycles/mm (assuming Bayer CFA): 	253 	253 	 
Red and Blue Nyquist Frequency in cycles/mm (assuming Bayer CFA): 	179 	179

jamesh
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Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Mon May 13, 2013 9:13 am

Perder wrote:Thanks a lot!
It's great to see some high rez stuff. There's clearly some heavy compression going on (I'm guessing a combination of the bitrate you set and youtube compression on top of that), but other than that it looks great, and I really can't wait to get one of my own :)
If I'm understanding correctly, this was filmed at 2592×[email protected] with a bitrate of 800kbps? To me the bitrate is too low, but I'm not gonna steal more of your time. Technical question though, is it hard to get 10-bit raw images out of the camera, or is it just a matter of using a different string of code?
The max speed for video is 1080p30 at the moment - and capturing full rez images is much slower than 10fps. I think recantha has taken a load of full rez captures and then run them through an encoder later - this won't have been generated directly at time of capture. And I think the fastest ful rez stuff is about 1-2fps although never tried it.

There is an option to store 10bit RAW bayer data in the jpeg metadata. Whether you will be able to do anything with that data (it's much rawer than usual raw images, straight off the sensor with no lens or black level correction) is up to you.
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Ravenous
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Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Mon May 13, 2013 11:28 am

jbeale wrote:Going up a step to an industrial optics supplier (Edmund Optics), even their $1000 lenses do not quite meet the spec, it is fairly extreme in terms of cycles or line pairs per mm.
Just a warning everyone - I'm not an expert in such matters, but bear in mind we really can't expect textbook resolution results from a simple lens and a very small sensor. The pixel pitch of this very small sensor corresponds to a high lp/mm figure in terms of ordinary cameras.

Don't worry too much about pixel peeping. JamesH has written in the past about the sort of software optimisations that go on internally with these types of camera. We'd be well advised to keep those in mind!

towolf
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Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Mon May 13, 2013 2:32 pm

jbeale wrote:...oh, "vbitrate=800"
People should seriously stop using mencoder. It’s properly unmaintained. Go ffmpeg.

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jbeale
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Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Mon May 13, 2013 2:40 pm

Ravenous wrote:we really can't expect textbook resolution results from a simple lens and a very small sensor. The pixel pitch of this very small sensor corresponds to a high lp/mm figure in terms of ordinary cameras.
Absolutely right, and that was what prompted me to have a look at possible alternative lenses, now that we've seen that the existing lens is relatively easy to remove. I was wondering how much of a resolution increase over the existing very inexpensive lens design, was possible. Also, I think the existing lens is fairly narrow-angle; if you want more field of view, you can simply use an add-on wide-angle adapter, or switch to a wide-angle lens which might also perform better. There are many options possible.

jamesh
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Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Mon May 13, 2013 2:59 pm

towolf wrote:
jbeale wrote:...oh, "vbitrate=800"
People should seriously stop using mencoder. It’s properly unmaintained. Go ffmpeg.
Or avconv....
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Ravenous
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Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Mon May 13, 2013 3:10 pm

jbeale wrote:I was wondering how much of a resolution increase over the existing very inexpensive lens design, was possible.
Very fair question of course. I just butted in because I didn't want beginners to see your post and start asking "how cheaply can I get a 3mm focal length lens with a flat field and 357 lp/mm resolution for my 25 dollar camera?" :o I think we know what ball park that would be in!

I think I read somewhere that many very small sensor cameras are already fairly close to their diffraction limit, due to the very small (physical) aperture. But I did optics in the 1980s and can't remember the formula. 1.22 lambda over something...?

Anyway a lens like that, which is capable of getting close enough to the sensor, is going to be very hard to find. (And hard to mount it in exactly the right place!)

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psergiu
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Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Mon May 13, 2013 4:19 pm

Hi everyone - guess what got posted on the foundation's official YouTube Channel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GImeVqHQzsE

And remember: Like, Favorite & Subscribe

limpens
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Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Mon May 13, 2013 6:51 pm

Just received my order confirmation. Now let's hope it will be delivered in a couple of days instead of months :-)

RexRoper
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Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Mon May 13, 2013 9:10 pm

Order confirmation received here, as well. Expecting the 2-3 day shipping top be accurate as the Foundation now realizes the huge demand they have created with the RPi. I would not bet on there being shipping delays similar to when the first RPi was released a year ago.

Many thanks to the Raspberry Pi Foundation for bringing the computer engineer spark back to life! The world will be much better off as a result of your efforts.

sharix
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Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Mon May 13, 2013 9:40 pm

Great job M33P! Good luck with your future hacks with the camera :)

poing
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Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Mon May 13, 2013 9:46 pm

And where did you order it? Can't seem to find it...

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