FPSNige
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:26 pm

Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:26 pm

So, today at work I thought "hmm, next project, build a HD camera capable of atleast 720p@60hz to attach to my Honda".

Then I see this thread, now cant wait for release!

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 27428
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:36 am

FPSNige wrote:So, today at work I thought "hmm, next project, build a HD camera capable of atleast 720p@60hz to attach to my Honda".

Then I see this thread, now cant wait for release!
We've not got 720p60 working yet. 720/1080p30 works fine.

Although out of interest, what display do you have that can actually display 720p60?
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed.
I've been saying "Mucho" to my Spanish friend a lot more lately. It means a lot to him.

FPSNige
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:26 pm

Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:39 pm

jamesh wrote:
FPSNige wrote:So, today at work I thought "hmm, next project, build a HD camera capable of atleast 720p@60hz to attach to my Honda".

Then I see this thread, now cant wait for release!
We've not got 720p60 working yet. 720/1080p30 works fine.

Although out of interest, what display do you have that can actually display 720p60?
Who doesnt? But i think your wires are crossed. I wouldnt want it in realtime. What im looking to do is attach it to my bike and recored trackdays. The 60fps giving better slow-mo details for those "moments" that happen.

User avatar
jbeale
Posts: 3721
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:51 pm
Contact: Website

Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:19 pm

jamesh wrote:Although out of interest, what display do you have that can actually display 720p60?
720p at 60 frames per second is a broadcast standard, although to be accurate it is more often 60/1.001 = 59.94 fps, due to a legacy NTSC framerate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/720p

As far as I know, just about all displays cable of 720p display can do the 60 Hz (or 59.94 Hz) frame rate. Three years ago I got a Panasonic HDC-TM700 (consumer camcorder) that records 1080p60, and my 6 year old, fairly cheap Vizio TV can display it also. A number of games consoles output 1080p60.
The HD ready 1080p logo program, by DIGITALEUROPE, requires that certified TV sets support 1080p 24fps, 1080p 50fps, and 1080p 60fps formats, among other requirements, with fps defined as frames per second. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1080p
In the US, since the first NTSC standard in 1941, broadcast TV has been 60 interlaced fields per second. When flat-panel LCD displays came into the picture, they were always "progressive-scan" but they had to support 60 frames per sec if they were to maintain the temporal resolution of the original standard-def, 480i broadcast signal that people were used to seeing.

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 27428
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:35 pm

jbeale wrote:
jamesh wrote:Although out of interest, what display do you have that can actually display 720p60?
720p at 60 frames per second is a broadcast standard, although to be accurate it is more often 60/1.001 = 59.94 fps, due to a legacy NTSC framerate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/720p

As far as I know, just about all displays cable of 720p display can do the 60 Hz (or 59.94 Hz) frame rate. Three years ago I got a Panasonic HDC-TM700 (consumer camcorder) that records 1080p60, and my 6 year old, fairly cheap Vizio TV can display it also. A number of games consoles output 1080p60.
The HD ready 1080p logo program, by DIGITALEUROPE, requires that certified TV sets support 1080p 24fps, 1080p 50fps, and 1080p 60fps formats, among other requirements, with fps defined as frames per second. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1080p
In the US, since the first NTSC standard in 1941, broadcast TV has been 60 interlaced fields per second. When flat-panel LCD displays came into the picture, they were always "progressive-scan" but they had to support 60 frames per sec if they were to maintain the temporal resolution of the original standard-def, 480i broadcast signal that people were used to seeing.
I was thinking about this from a decoder POV, not a HDMI input pov, think that's where is was getting it mixed up. I believe the decode/encode requirements for 720i60 are the same as 720p30 (could be wrong) since interlaced frames are half the size, hence my question. p60 stuff is really 60 different fps, i60 really isn't. So something that supports decoding of p60 stuff would need to have a decoder capable of actually decoding 60fps, whereas i60 requires a decoder capable of 30fps. I was just wondering is most TV's are actually capable of actual 720p60 decoding. I presume they must be if it's a known standard, although terrestial HD transmission is the UK I think are up to 1080p30.

So, a TV might be able to display HDMI in at 60fps (if your source can produce it), but I wonder if they are capable of decoding 1080p60, I assume they are. Must purely depend on the device being plugged in.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed.
I've been saying "Mucho" to my Spanish friend a lot more lately. It means a lot to him.

User avatar
Cheetah
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:17 am

Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:42 pm

jamesh wrote:So, a TV might be able to display HDMI in at 60fps (if your source can produce it), but I wonder if they are capable of decoding 1080p60, I assume they are. Must purely depend on the device being plugged in.
Anything that can decode 3D will be able to :)

Since the only way most people will be able to deliver encoded video to a TV is via a media streaming system and ethernet/wifi to a "smart TV" (ATSC modulators are not exactly home equipment). How many smart TVs can't do 3D? (Really a question, I have no idea).

kbjohnson90
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:03 pm

Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:05 pm

Any update of a release date?
I have been trying to watch for it, and really don't want to miss it!

User avatar
jbeale
Posts: 3721
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:51 pm
Contact: Website

Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:46 pm

jamesh wrote: I was thinking about this from a decoder POV, not a HDMI input pov, think that's where is was getting it mixed up. I believe the decode/encode requirements for 720i60 are the same as 720p30 (could be wrong) since interlaced frames are half the size, hence my question. p60 stuff is really 60 different fps, i60 really isn't. So something that supports decoding of p60 stuff would need to have a decoder capable of actually decoding 60fps, whereas i60 requires a decoder capable of 30fps. I was just wondering is most TV's are actually capable of actual 720p60 decoding. I presume they must be if it's a known standard, although terrestial HD transmission is the UK I think are up to 1080p30.

So, a TV might be able to display HDMI in at 60fps (if your source can produce it), but I wonder if they are capable of decoding 1080p60, I assume they are. Must purely depend on the device being plugged in.
I'm not familiar with the standards myself, but according to Wikipedia, 720i60 does not and never has existed in standard broadcast; "720" is always 720p.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/720p
no proposed or existing broadcast standard permits 720 interlaced lines in a video frame at any frame rate.[4]
[4] http://www.atsc.org/cms/standards/a72/a_72_part_1.pdf

User avatar
JamesTheAwesomeDude
Posts: 25
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:42 pm

Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:06 am

I really, really want one of these.

What's the estimated price?
Hiawatha webserver 9.1 Debian armhf package! Run a small website on your Pi!
http://bit.ly/HiawathaPi

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 27428
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:10 am

JamesTheAwesomeDude wrote:I really, really want one of these.

What's the estimated price?
$25, which gives you the PCB, camera and connecting cable to the Raspi (Model A or B should work) Hopefully available very soon. There will, I'm sure, be a big post the front page when it is released.

Demo software to run the camera will be provided, and you will need to upgrade the GPU binary on the Raspi to support the new camera features. Probably a simple rpi-update or similar will do it all for you. Source code for the demo apps is already available in the userland github repo.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed.
I've been saying "Mucho" to my Spanish friend a lot more lately. It means a lot to him.

MmmPi
Posts: 61
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:43 am

Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:27 pm

kbjohnson90 wrote:Any update of a release date?
April only has a couple days left.
You guys are going to release on the last day again aren't you. :|
~edit~ It seems Liz has pushed it to May.
.

kbjohnson90
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:03 pm

Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:25 pm

MmmPi wrote:
kbjohnson90 wrote:Any update of a release date?
April only has a couple days left.
You guys are going to release on the last day again aren't you. :|
~edit~ It seems Liz has pushed it to May.
Thanks for the link!

BillX
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:08 am

Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:34 am

It seems Liz has pushed it to May.
yhay as every time... they tell us a date ... we wait for it and month later its not available ... i am glad that i found an other hardware instead of waiting longer and longer....

Ravenous
Posts: 1956
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:01 pm
Location: UK

Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:37 am

If you found other hardware why are you trawling for an argument around here?

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 27428
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:45 am

BillX wrote:
It seems Liz has pushed it to May.
yhay as every time... they tell us a date ... we wait for it and month later its not available ... i am glad that i found an other hardware instead of waiting longer and longer....
Welcome to the world of trying to make stuff and sell it to the public, who bitch and whinge without realising the complexity of actually making this sort of thing in bulk.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed.
I've been saying "Mucho" to my Spanish friend a lot more lately. It means a lot to him.

User avatar
piglet
Posts: 921
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:16 pm

Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:12 am

No bitch or whinge here mate. You don't see the 99.99% of us who are patiently following this thread with hope and thankfulness because we don't post.

Thanks for all you're doing. I'll be buying as and when it's ready, as will all the other eager but silent followers.

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 27428
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:21 pm

piglet wrote:No bitch or whinge here mate. You don't see the 99.99% of us who are patiently following this thread with hope and thankfulness because we don't post.

Thanks for all you're doing. I'll be buying as and when it's ready, as will all the other eager but silent followers.
Cheers!

It is a bit worrying that people have no concept of what is required on a project like the Raspberry Pi - lets hope that the Raspi educates in those areas as well. I've learnt a lot, as has Eben and the Foundation over the last couple of years. If Liz/someone ever writes a book about it (I hope she has been keeping notes), I think people will be amazed that the Raspi ever got in to their hands. It amazing how much cruft gets in the way when all you want to do is sell something small and cheap and educational.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed.
I've been saying "Mucho" to my Spanish friend a lot more lately. It means a lot to him.

User avatar
rew
Posts: 438
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:25 pm

Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Wed May 01, 2013 8:57 am

jamesh wrote:It is a bit worrying that people have no concept of what is required on a project like the Raspberry Pi -
Indeed.

Thing is, that you guys ("Raspberry pi foundation") now have experience with the raspberry pi. Some things have already been put-in-place for the raspberry, so the camera can proceed at a quicker pace. No need for long contract negotiations, as the basis is already in place.

So if you have the experience that it takes time to get production up and running, you shouldn't put out an unrealistic estimate of when they will be available. I was holding my breath yesterday as I had clearly seen a "promise" of "in april". It's wrong for "us" to assume it will be first week of april when you say april. You (RPI foundation) are in your right to make it the last day of april and we should be prepared for that as you've pulled that one on us before.

Anyway, I would be happy with a "preorder here" procedure. Then I can get my order in and know that I'll be on the list of people who get it once it becomes available. Now I have to be online and put in my order quickly not to end up behind weeks of production lead-time. I'm going on a 10-day vacation tomorrow. I don't know if my connectivity will be as good as normal.
Check out our raspberry pi addons: https://www.bitwizard.nl/shop/

Ravenous
Posts: 1956
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:01 pm
Location: UK

Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Wed May 01, 2013 9:07 am

Where did you see this promise of in april? Liz has learned not to make promises like that normally...

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 27428
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Wed May 01, 2013 9:55 am

rew wrote:
jamesh wrote:It is a bit worrying that people have no concept of what is required on a project like the Raspberry Pi -
Indeed.

Thing is, that you guys ("Raspberry pi foundation") now have experience with the raspberry pi. Some things have already been put-in-place for the raspberry, so the camera can proceed at a quicker pace. No need for long contract negotiations, as the basis is already in place.

So if you have the experience that it takes time to get production up and running, you shouldn't put out an unrealistic estimate of when they will be available. I was holding my breath yesterday as I had clearly seen a "promise" of "in april". It's wrong for "us" to assume it will be first week of april when you say april. You (RPI foundation) are in your right to make it the last day of april and we should be prepared for that as you've pulled that one on us before.

Anyway, I would be happy with a "preorder here" procedure. Then I can get my order in and know that I'll be on the list of people who get it once it becomes available. Now I have to be online and put in my order quickly not to end up behind weeks of production lead-time. I'm going on a 10-day vacation tomorrow. I don't know if my connectivity will be as good as normal.
You would be surprised at how much stuff all needs to be done again. Finding camera supplier, negotiating prices, board design, board prototyping, board testing, software writing, EMC testing, rework due to testing (not much in fact), production line test jigs and software (you do want them tested before you get them, don't you?), rework for productisation etc. Most of the time is getting the production right - you cannot simply scale up prototype manufacture and suddenly start making them in the thousands.

I haven't including dealing with the distributors. That's deserves a novel in itself...but they need to get inventory made, they need to prep marketing materials just as a couple of examples. It all takes time. More time than I think it should, but then, I don't work for them, and it always amazes me how long these things take - the speed of legalese I guess.

You haven't seem a promise for April, just so you know. There was a hope for April, not sure what the latest delay is, but it's nothing to do with the software (or indeed the Foundation AFAIK), but the current hope is for May. Estimate April, release (hopefully) May , I would not regard that as an unrealistic 'estimate'.

No preorder procedure as far as I know.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed.
I've been saying "Mucho" to my Spanish friend a lot more lately. It means a lot to him.

MmmPi
Posts: 61
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:43 am

Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Wed May 01, 2013 5:16 pm

Seriously?
I haven't even been following RPi that much anymore & I saw it.
Creating the camera board – part two 20th of March 2013
Liz: here’s the second and final part of David Plowman’s walk through the development of the Raspberry Pi camera board, which will be available to purchase in April.
Did she say "I swear on mooncake's little head!" no, but she did use "will" instead of "should".
As one would expect, you'll find several tech sites like pcmag have repeated Liz' April date in case someone missed it on the RPi homepage.
Ravenous wrote:Where did you see this promise of in april? Liz has learned not to make promises like that normally...
Thats exactly why I thought this time around it must be finished & all set to be available April.

Not trying to make a problem of it. Whenever its done, its done. :mrgreen:
MmmPi wrote:You guys are going to release on the last day again aren't you. :|
I meant that as a friendly joke more then a dig. I should have done :| :mrgreen: perhaps.
.

dom
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 5661
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:41 pm
Location: Cambridge

Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Wed May 01, 2013 8:52 pm

Just in case anyone is confused,
/opt/vc/bin/raspicam
has now been renamed to:
/opt/vc/bin/raspistill

as that was James' original intention.

mjtrac
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 5:39 pm

Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Thu May 02, 2013 4:58 pm

I'm very grateful for all the work everyone involved has been putting into the pi and especially the camera board. I agree that no promise was made of April.

About a week ago, I got email from Element 14 inviting me to express interest in the camera board, indicating they'd let those of us who express interest know when it's available.

Would anyone from the foundation care to give an update on what has been happening and what stage things are at? For example, it would be nice to know, at one extreme, whether suppliers are now building up inventory, or whether, at the other, the Foundation has decided to change imaging chips and start over. Or perhaps things are somewhere in-between? :)

therimmer96
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:18 pm

Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Thu May 02, 2013 5:05 pm

Hmmm, home made google glass here we go! :-)

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 27428
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Foundation Camera Board information

Fri May 03, 2013 12:23 am

mjtrac wrote:I'm very grateful for all the work everyone involved has been putting into the pi and especially the camera board. I agree that no promise was made of April.

About a week ago, I got email from Element 14 inviting me to express interest in the camera board, indicating they'd let those of us who express interest know when it's available.

Would anyone from the foundation care to give an update on what has been happening and what stage things are at? For example, it would be nice to know, at one extreme, whether suppliers are now building up inventory, or whether, at the other, the Foundation has decided to change imaging chips and start over. Or perhaps things are somewhere in-between? :)
As far as I know the HW is settled, the software is settled, and I've provided the production line with some software to help them test on the line. So I can only presume its quite close.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed.
I've been saying "Mucho" to my Spanish friend a lot more lately. It means a lot to him.

Return to “Camera board”