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HermannSW
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Raspberry Pi High Quality Camera

Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:25 pm

Today new Raspberry camera has launched, see this thread in General board:
viewtopic.php?f=63&t=272605

Camera and raspistill/raspivid documentation was updated:
viewtopic.php?f=63&t=272605#p1652405
Image

6by9 clarified that 2 CSI-2 lanes are used to connect that camera and why.
Also that 1080p cannot be done at 240fps as imx477 datasheet stated:
viewtopic.php?f=63&t=272605#p1652405

I tried some analogy calculation on what fastest mode (1016x760@120fps) could probably get to with raspiraw:
v1 and v2 cameras allowed to reach >=6 times framerate for 1/6th of vertical resolution.
That could allow for 720fps framerate for 1016x128, to be tested.
Or probably more that 1000fps for 1016x64 (v2 had hard max framerate of 1007fps, no matter what):
viewtopic.php?f=63&t=272605#p1652476

I assume the same NDA problems as with v1 and v2 cameras prohibit Raspberry people to add support for imx477 to raspiraw.
I just ordered one HQ camera by German distributor, for capturing I2C traffic from Pi to camera.
My Pi2B with the two I2C capture solder balls is already waiting for the camera to arrive ;-)
viewtopic.php?f=43&t=109137&p=1237033#p1236942
Image

Camera needs a lens, it is sold without (50$ without VAT):
https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/ra ... ty-camera/
Image

C-type lenses can be used, and a C-CS adapter is inclusive.
I will try first with a CS-lens I already own and see if that works:
viewtopic.php?f=43&t=266916&p=1638585#p1638585
I did order a 3$ mini tripod as well, which the distributor proposed to buy with the camera:
mini-tripod.jpg
mini-tripod.jpg
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Re: Raspberry Pi High Quality Camera

Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:55 pm

Hope some one makes some 'camera review' quality pictures. Compared with camera's in the same price range (16 mm + new camera + raspberry) and not with the other Pi camera's.

I have seen on twitter some photos made by biglesp with the 16 mm lens and they are not convincing yet.
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Re: Raspberry Pi High Quality Camera

Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:03 pm

Remember that these are very much low end lenses. To get really good image quality you will need to spend well over $100 per lens. Just like you would for a DLSR .

Check out the prices for Tamron lenses!

However, the ones we sell are pretty good for the price. And being interchangable - if you want to spend the money, you can.
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Re: Raspberry Pi High Quality Camera

Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:30 pm

To my surprise I was able to place an order for the new camera this morning. Of course, with logistics the way they are, who knows what shipping delays may be. I'll make some tests if someone doesn't beat me to it. I have a variety of lenses, but nothing too high-end directly in C/CS mount. I have some reasonable full-frame Canon EF lenses and an EF-C mount adaptor, although they will be effectively long-telephoto of course with the crop factor on this camera.

I'm going to guess the sensor can resolve pretty much 100% at the pixel level, and image quality is almost entirely about the lens. If there's an anti-alias filter maybe not quite, but my guess is you wouldn't bother to include one, as 99% of the lenses used aren't going to deliver visible aliasing with pixels this size.

The sensor effects would be about color fidelity, dynamic range, and noise level. For normal daylight I expect it will be good. For low-light shots, no doubt better than the current camera, but short of a DSLR. Maybe there will be an aftermarket for those who want someone else to perform the perhaps risky IR modification.
Last edited by jbeale on Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:10 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Raspberry Pi High Quality Camera

Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:40 pm

jbeale wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:30 pm
I have some reasonable full-frame Canon EF lenses and an EF-CS adaptor, although they will be effectively long-telephoto of course with the crop factor on this camera.
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Re: Raspberry Pi High Quality Camera

Fri May 01, 2020 1:33 am

By the way, some C/CS mount lenses are "DC Auto Iris" in which the iris is servo controlled. The lens has a cable with a small square 4-pin connector. I don't know how standard the configuration is but on the two such lenses I have https://photos.app.goo.gl/GVZBKhP5L61nSKD2A the iris is fully closed when the cable is detached. So to use these lenses with the new Pi camera, I would need some kind of a drive circuit to at least hold the iris open, if not drive it in some controlled way.

I haven't found much detail, but supposedly two pins are a drive solenoid (0..30 mA?) and the other two pins are a feedback coil with a signal proportional to iris velocity (not position), sometimes labelled "damp" or "brake". So maybe a DC-Auto-Iris Lens control circuit could be another Pi accessory someone could come up with. Edit: 3V @ 18 mA seems to open one of my lenses all the way, except the drive polarity on pins (3,4) is opposite what the diagram shows.

Image

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Re: Raspberry Pi High Quality Camera

Fri May 01, 2020 7:42 am

I've taken some sample shots for my blog - https://www.recantha.co.uk/blog/?p=20060
Click the images to get the 6MB+ versions. They're... okay as shots... a bit dull (alright, I quite like the keyboard shot, but that's me). But they do show the quality. They were shot with the 16mm camera on a small desk tripod.
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Re: Raspberry Pi High Quality Camera

Fri May 01, 2020 10:46 am

jbeale wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 1:33 am
By the way, some C/CS mount lenses are "DC Auto Iris" in which the iris is servo controlled. The lens has a cable with a small square 4-pin connector. I don't know how standard the configuration is but on the two such lenses I have https://photos.app.goo.gl/GVZBKhP5L61nSKD2A the iris is fully closed when the cable is detached. So to use these lenses with the new Pi camera, I would need some kind of a drive circuit to at least hold the iris open, if not drive it in some controlled way.

I haven't found much detail, but supposedly two pins are a drive solenoid (0..30 mA?) and the other two pins are a feedback coil with a signal proportional to iris velocity (not position), sometimes labelled "damp" or "brake". So maybe a DC-Auto-Iris Lens control circuit could be another Pi accessory someone could come up with. Edit: 3V @ 18 mA seems to open one of my lenses all the way, except the drive polarity on pins (3,4) is opposite what the diagram shows.

Image
I've encountered lenses with that sort of connector on from my days working on analogue CCTV systems. Some camera modules had a drive signal output for those lenses. They were pretty trivial in looking at the analogue video signal (minus sync pulses) and driving the iris to try and get a preconfigured level of output signal.
The Philips/Bosch LTC0600 was one camera that we used at the time, and looking at an old manual it can put out either the drive you mention, or the iris video signal (no sync pulses).
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Re: Raspberry Pi High Quality Camera

Fri May 01, 2020 4:10 pm

recantha2 wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 7:42 am
I've taken some sample shots for my blog - https://www.recantha.co.uk/blog/?p=20060
Well, that was quick! Thanks for posting those. I think so far this is more about the lens than anything else, but clearly there's some potential here.

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Re: Raspberry Pi High Quality Camera

Fri May 01, 2020 4:40 pm

I would like to use it on a drone, but does anyone know if it is possible the remove the CS-mount and use a M12-mount instead ? CS lenses are a bit overweighted to fly :D

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Re: Raspberry Pi High Quality Camera

Fri May 01, 2020 5:34 pm

drich wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 4:40 pm
I would like to use it on a drone, but does anyone know if it is possible the remove the CS-mount and use a M12-mount instead ? CS lenses are a bit overweighted to fly :D
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M12-to-CS-or ... 3038966647 as one of many results if you put "cs to m12" into Ebay.
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Re: Raspberry Pi High Quality Camera

Fri May 01, 2020 6:10 pm

M12-mount instead ? CS lenses are a bit overweighted to fly :D
If I'm reading this right, there may even be a 3D-printable adaptor to use M12 lenses on a C-mount flange. Not as accurate or strong as metal, but probably weighs less. https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:940406

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Re: Raspberry Pi High Quality Camera

Fri May 01, 2020 6:54 pm

gepatto tweeted that he live stream HQ camera
https://twitter.com/gepatto/status/1256238917914972166
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2H_g7QpWolo
PiHQ.livestream.jpg
PiHQ.livestream.jpg
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Re: Raspberry Pi High Quality Camera

Fri May 01, 2020 8:42 pm

Hi,

Sorry if the question sounds dumb.

I'm not familiar with image processing (nor am I with Rasperry Pi in general), but am very interested to try this "high quality camera" module if it lets me do slitscan photo at a fast enough rate.

I'm wondering if it's possible to read only two horizontal rows input from the sensor (and discard all the other pixels), but at a faster rate (like thousands of times per second)? I don't necessarily need the demosaicking on the fly, just recording the input on these two rows, and then do the demosaicking later, likely on a more powerful computer if the resulting is a several dozens of megapixels picture.

Any API which lets do that? Is the sensor fit for that?

Thank you for the answers.

Benh

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Re: Raspberry Pi High Quality Camera

Fri May 01, 2020 10:54 pm

I'm excited by this new HQ camera module.
I have a number of V1 and V2 modules and an assortment of unofficial ones (because of CS mounts!) with many C, CS and C-adapted lenses.

My no.1 question, to jamesh and 6by9:

Previously, when mounting an high quality C/CS lens on a (mount-)hacked camera module, I experienced bad quality at the image borders (not because of my top-line Computar lenses...).
At the time, I did a number of tests to investigate if it was the "internal correction" applied by VideoCore (to compensate for the less-than-stellar quality of the stock lens) or an effect of sensor microlenses interacting (badly) with C/CS lenses geometry.
Looked like a mix of both; so I had to switch to USB industrial cameras for my purposes (sadly).

Is an "internal lens correction" still applied to this new HP camera module?

Any image quality test with different C/CS Lenses, other than the "official" ones? Does image quality hold up at the borders?

Thanks in advance; and congratulations for what it looks like an outstanding module!

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Re: Raspberry Pi High Quality Camera

Sat May 02, 2020 6:15 am

+1 for more info on lens shading table handling on the new HQ camera. I.e. How does it deal with it in case of the two 'official' lenses, and how to correct for a random lens?

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Re: Raspberry Pi High Quality Camera

Sat May 02, 2020 7:33 am

blieusong wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 8:42 pm
I'm wondering if it's possible to read only two horizontal rows input from the sensor (and discard all the other pixels), but at a faster rate (like thousands of times per second)? I don't necessarily need the demosaicking on the fly, just recording the input on these two rows, and then do the demosaicking later, likely on a more powerful computer if the resulting is a several dozens of megapixels picture.
That can be done with raspiraw, I stated in initial posting of this thread that it was the reason I bought HQ camera -- I2C traffic from camera needs to be decoded by someone.

In this posting you can see how high framerates you can get with v1/v2 cameras and raspiraw (up to 750/1007 fps with v1/v2 camera):
viewtopic.php?f=63&t=272605#p1652476
https://stamm-wilbrandt.de/en/Raspberry_camera.html
https://stamm-wilbrandt.de/en#raspcatbot
https://github.com/Hermann-SW/raspiraw
https://github.com/Hermann-SW/Raspberry_v1_camera_global_external_shutter
https://stamm-wilbrandt.de/working_with_FPGAs

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Re: Raspberry Pi High Quality Camera

Sat May 02, 2020 8:35 am

XFer012 wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 10:54 pm
I'm excited by this new HQ camera module.
I have a number of V1 and V2 modules and an assortment of unofficial ones (because of CS mounts!) with many C, CS and C-adapted lenses.

My no.1 question, to jamesh and 6by9:

Previously, when mounting an high quality C/CS lens on a (mount-)hacked camera module, I experienced bad quality at the image borders (not because of my top-line Computar lenses...).
At the time, I did a number of tests to investigate if it was the "internal correction" applied by VideoCore (to compensate for the less-than-stellar quality of the stock lens) or an effect of sensor microlenses interacting (badly) with C/CS lenses geometry.
Looked like a mix of both; so I had to switch to USB industrial cameras for my purposes (sadly).

Is an "internal lens correction" still applied to this new HP camera module?

Any image quality test with different C/CS Lenses, other than the "official" ones? Does image quality hold up at the borders?

Thanks in advance; and congratulations for what it looks like an outstanding module!
The ability to define your own lens shading tables had been in the firmware for a couple of years, you could have used those rather than moving to USB.

We still use internal correction for this new camera. But there is also some auto correction, so one table in the firmware plus the auto corrections caters for both lenses, which tbh don't suffer from anywhere near the same level of vignetting as the previous models.
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Re: Raspberry Pi High Quality Camera

Sat May 02, 2020 2:12 pm

Unfortunately, even with the ability to load my own correction table in the firmware, I could never get decent results with my high quality C-mount lenses, which conversely work as intended on USB cameras.
As I wrote, it must have been a mix of issues with the correction model and with (bad) interaction between sensor and lenses (the sensor was designed for very different lenses).

So no, I was actually forced to drop Camera Modules V1 and V2.

The fact that you still apply internal corrections via VideoCore even with the new HQ camera module makes me worry.
I hope it can be totally disabled.

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Re: Raspberry Pi High Quality Camera

Sat May 02, 2020 5:05 pm

XFer012 wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 2:12 pm
Unfortunately, even with the ability to load my own correction table in the firmware, I could never get decent results with my high quality C-mount lenses, which conversely work as intended on USB cameras.
As I wrote, it must have been a mix of issues with the correction model and with (bad) interaction between sensor and lenses (the sensor was designed for very different lenses).

So no, I was actually forced to drop Camera Modules V1 and V2.

The fact that you still apply internal corrections via VideoCore even with the new HQ camera module makes me worry.
I hope it can be totally disabled.
Why worry? It works fine., These lenses suffer from very minor aberrations compared with the V1/2, so the auto correct on top of the basic table works really well. I think you can turn it off anyway but that will produce worse results.
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Re: Raspberry Pi High Quality Camera

Sat May 02, 2020 7:13 pm

There is no mentioning of HDR in this thread, the General board thread, nor on HQ product brief.

But imx477 sensor supports HDR -- will there be some HDR support for Raspberry HQ camera?
https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products ... _Flyer.pdf
imx477.HDR.png
imx477.HDR.png
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Re: Raspberry Pi High Quality Camera

Sat May 02, 2020 7:46 pm

jamesh wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 5:05 pm
Why worry? It works fine.
I am not using your official Cmount lenses (they don't suit my needs).
I have my own correction algorythm for my lenses and don't want a double correction.
I think you can turn it off anyway but that will produce worse results.
No, it would not.

Is it possible to check if totally disabling the VideoCore lens correction (without also disabling the sensor bias correction) is actually an option?
It would make a big difference for me in judging if the new HQ camera module would suit my needs.
Thanks in advance!

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Re: Raspberry Pi High Quality Camera

Sat May 02, 2020 7:49 pm

HermannSW wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 7:13 pm
There is no mentioning of HDR in this thread, the General board thread, nor on HQ product brief.

But imx477 sensor supports HDR -- will there be some HDR support for Raspberry HQ camera?
https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products ... _Flyer.pdf
imx477.HDR.png
HDR requires hardware that can process the different frames into one combined frame. The Pi ISP can't, therefore whilst we could in theory read out HDR frames, there's not much you can then do with them on the Pi. There may be a case for storing the raw frames for post-processing, but that isn't a mainline use case.
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Re: Raspberry Pi High Quality Camera

Sat May 02, 2020 7:50 pm

XFer012 wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 7:46 pm
Is it possible to check if totally disabling the VideoCore lens correction (without also disabling the sensor bias correction) is actually an option?
It would make a big difference for me in judging if the new HQ camera module would suit my needs.
Thanks in advance!
It's been there for 3 years - viewtopic.php?f=43&t=175711
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Re: Raspberry Pi High Quality Camera

Sat May 02, 2020 8:48 pm

Ok, so the situation has not varied: there are not two separate options for disabling *lens* correction and *sensor (+microlenses)* correction.

The problem at the time was that when disabling lens correction, the (useful) correction for the varying response of the sensor (and included microlenses) with the ray angle was disabled as well.
I see it's not something you have control over.
Anyway the new camera module looks awesome.
Great idea to add the backfocal distance adjustment as well. Quite useful.
Any idea when the new module will be available through the usual EU resellers (Pimoroni and the likes)?

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