PeteRodgers
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Lenses

Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:22 pm

Hi,

Will we be able to change the lens on the Camera board?

Cheers
Pete

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Re: Lenses

Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:27 pm

No.

It's a relatively simply hyperfocal mobile phone camera. However, the picture quality is pretty good!
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Re: Lenses

Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:31 pm

Not unusual to change lenses especially on mobile phone type cameras as they are so small the amount of light volume is small. Personally never use less than M12 unless forced to.

Amount of kids with smartphones who complain that the lenses are crap on their smart phones when they have 5MP+ sensor and only <1MP lens
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Re: Lenses

Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:59 pm

Maybe OP was thinking of putting a telephoto on instead of the standard lens. I would be interest in that for wildlife recording.
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Re: Lenses

Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:08 pm

How easy is it to remove the IR filter from the lens for night vision mode??

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Re: Lenses

Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:12 pm

not very
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Re: Lenses

Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:14 pm

I'm ready to be corrected on this one, but I think it's a coating (and we don't get a choice to buy the lens without it - it's a consumer part) rather than a removable filter. That said, we do know that there are a lot of you with low-light requirements, not least the guys at London Zoo, who are tracking wild animals with a load of Pis, so we're looking into ways around that - but we won't have a solution when it's time to release the camera board. You'll have to wait a bit, and I can't give you a precise time frame.
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Re: Lenses

Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:02 pm

Well it may be conformal coating on your lens.

Most lenses and lens assemblies I have dealt over the years for small cameras it is a filter between lens and sensor, even single chip assembly with lens assembly attached.

Sometimes though it wil be almost catastrophic to take apart the assemblies as they are build once and forget, if fails bin it types.
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Re: Lenses

Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:06 pm

techpaul wrote:Well it may be conformal coating on your lens.

Most lenses and lens assemblies I have dealt over the years for small cameras it is a filter between lens and sensor, even single chip assembly with lens assembly attached.

Sometimes though it wil be almost catastrophic to take apart the assemblies as they are build once and forget, if fails bin it types.
These sensors are also tiny - here is a comparison (this doesn't have a picture of the one we are using) - good luck with taking on of these apart! In order VGA, 5MP, 8MP, 12MP, ours is a similar size to the second from left.

Image
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Re: Lenses

Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:00 pm

While it would require some fiddly soldering, is there any reason why you could not purchase a raw OV5647 sensor chip, and mount it in place of the module? Of course, you'd need to spec and assemble your own lens assembly, but would the camera board/GPU driver balk at talking to a sensor chip that it was not shipped with (i.e. is there any sort of pairing going on)?

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Re: Lenses

Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:50 pm

EdZ wrote:While it would require some fiddly soldering, is there any reason why you could not purchase a raw OV5647 sensor chip, and mount it in place of the module? Of course, you'd need to spec and assemble your own lens assembly, but would the camera board/GPU driver balk at talking to a sensor chip that it was not shipped with (i.e. is there any sort of pairing going on)?
You ever tried dealing with Omnivision, they can be right awkward unless you want 10 million units a year.

Getting small lens assemblies is possible sometimes easier to just buy assembly.
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Re: Lenses

Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:18 am

No idea on the quality or actual usefullness of these type of things, but could you use them with the Pi camera?

"Our Fisheye, Telephoto, Wide Angle and Macro Lenses are like pro-lenses for your phone!"
http://photojojo.com/store/awesomeness/ ... ne-lenses/

Daz

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Re: Lenses

Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:33 am

Probably. Although at $20 I'd be surprised if the required quality was present..
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Re: Lenses

Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:54 am

Alfadaz wrote:No idea on the quality or actual usefullness of these type of things, but could you use them with the Pi camera?

"Our Fisheye, Telephoto, Wide Angle and Macro Lenses are like pro-lenses for your phone!"
http://photojojo.com/store/awesomeness/ ... ne-lenses/

Daz
I would suggest that if you require wide angle and other special lenses, you seriously look at designing or finding another camera to interface. As your angle gets wider your effective resolution goes down, also this normally requires more lenses in the assembly, creating more losses.

I normally would not consider anything above 1MPixel on M12 lens, even then I try to stick unless customer stamps their feet to 90 degree FOV or less. Many children I see complain about their phone camera quality, as the smaller the lens the less area of light collection, so on short exposure (to stop movement), the grainier the picture.

You ever wondered why Papparrazzi telephoto lens are so WIDE.

I suggest looking at resources even on photographic lenses.
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Re: Lenses

Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:10 pm

techpaul wrote:
Alfadaz wrote:No idea on the quality or actual usefullness of these type of things, but could you use them with the Pi camera?

"Our Fisheye, Telephoto, Wide Angle and Macro Lenses are like pro-lenses for your phone!"
http://photojojo.com/store/awesomeness/ ... ne-lenses/

Daz
I would suggest that if you require wide angle and other special lenses, you seriously look at designing or finding another camera to interface. As your angle gets wider your effective resolution goes down, also this normally requires more lenses in the assembly, creating more losses.

I normally would not consider anything above 1MPixel on M12 lens, even then I try to stick unless customer stamps their feet to 90 degree FOV or less. Many children I see complain about their phone camera quality, as the smaller the lens the less area of light collection, so on short exposure (to stop movement), the grainier the picture.

You ever wondered why Papparrazzi telephoto lens are so WIDE.

I suggest looking at resources even on photographic lenses.
Check out the image quality on the Nokia 808. Truly good stuff, and that a 41MP sensor in a phone. Lots of people think that's bonkers, but it really is truly impressive, and the best camera phone by far.

I'm am biased though, since I was the project lead on that camera! (which uses the same ISP as the Raspi)
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Re: Lenses

Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:28 pm

jamesh wrote:
techpaul wrote:
Alfadaz wrote:No idea on the quality or actual usefullness of these type of things, but could you use them with the Pi camera?

"Our Fisheye, Telephoto, Wide Angle and Macro Lenses are like pro-lenses for your phone!"
http://photojojo.com/store/awesomeness/ ... ne-lenses/

Daz
I would suggest that if you require wide angle and other special lenses, you seriously look at designing or finding another camera to interface. As your angle gets wider your effective resolution goes down, also this normally requires more lenses in the assembly, creating more losses.

I normally would not consider anything above 1MPixel on M12 lens, even then I try to stick unless customer stamps their feet to 90 degree FOV or less. Many children I see complain about their phone camera quality, as the smaller the lens the less area of light collection, so on short exposure (to stop movement), the grainier the picture.

You ever wondered why Papparrazzi telephoto lens are so WIDE.

I suggest looking at resources even on photographic lenses.
Check out the image quality on the Nokia 808. Truly good stuff, and that a 41MP sensor in a phone. Lots of people think that's bonkers, but it really is truly impressive, and the best camera phone by far.

I'm am biased though, since I was the project lead on that camera! (which uses the same ISP as the Raspi)
Two simple questions

FOV?

MTF?
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Re: Lenses

Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:55 pm

techpaul wrote:
jamesh wrote:
techpaul wrote: I would suggest that if you require wide angle and other special lenses, you seriously look at designing or finding another camera to interface. As your angle gets wider your effective resolution goes down, also this normally requires more lenses in the assembly, creating more losses.

I normally would not consider anything above 1MPixel on M12 lens, even then I try to stick unless customer stamps their feet to 90 degree FOV or less. Many children I see complain about their phone camera quality, as the smaller the lens the less area of light collection, so on short exposure (to stop movement), the grainier the picture.

You ever wondered why Papparrazzi telephoto lens are so WIDE.

I suggest looking at resources even on photographic lenses.
Check out the image quality on the Nokia 808. Truly good stuff, and that a 41MP sensor in a phone. Lots of people think that's bonkers, but it really is truly impressive, and the best camera phone by far.

I'm am biased though, since I was the project lead on that camera! (which uses the same ISP as the Raspi)
Two simple questions

FOV?

MTF?
They may be simple to you, and I presume by FOV you mean Field of view (which I don't know although I have tried to find out), but what do you mean by MTF?
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Re: Lenses

Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:49 pm

jamesh wrote:
techpaul wrote:
jamesh wrote: Check out the image quality on the Nokia 808. Truly good stuff, and that a 41MP sensor in a phone. Lots of people think that's bonkers, but it really is truly impressive, and the best camera phone by far.

I'm am biased though, since I was the project lead on that camera! (which uses the same ISP as the Raspi)
Two simple questions

FOV?

MTF?
They may be simple to you, and I presume by FOV you mean Field of view (which I don't know although I have tried to find out), but what do you mean by MTF?
Field of View and Modulation Transfer Function are basis of how much light and how much resolution you can get through a lens. Modulation Transfer Function relates to light levels over the lens and how many Line Pairs/mm you resolve which is directly relational to sharpness and contrast of the image.

Otherwise you may have a 41MP imager but its true accuracy could be 1MP, if it is good you should be able to actually meaure these factors for lens and for lens/imager combination.

With imaging devices (and even film cameras) the real resolution is NOT the number of pixels but how well you can resolve image features.

I have over last 30 years been involved or designed parts of imaging systems for many areas from microscopes to security cameras and even stuff to work in InfraRed range to measure 0K to 1400K temperature ranges, that one need a large crew of people to calibrate the imager over 48hours continuous operation.
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Re: Lenses

Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:25 pm

jamesh wrote:... but what do you mean by MTF?
http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/lens/si ... /index.htm

Scroll down and read 'How to read the MTF chart', just for starters.

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Re: Lenses

Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:35 pm

poing wrote:
jamesh wrote:... but what do you mean by MTF?
http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/lens/si ... /index.htm

Scroll down and read 'How to read the MTF chart', just for starters.
Thats for lens on 35mm format where lenses are normally 20 to 50mm diameter (of the actual glass), and those are good lenses.
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Re: Lenses

Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:51 pm

techpaul wrote: I would suggest that if you require wide angle and other special lenses, you seriously look at designing or finding another camera to interface. As your angle gets wider your effective resolution goes down, also this normally requires more lenses in the assembly, creating more losses.
I don't require anything myself, i just remembered seing a few advertised a while back, so thought i would mention it. :)

There are lots of these around these days.

Here is another example
Image

More here - plus a video at the bottom showing a demo of some cheap wide angle and fish eye lens.
http://www.better-digital-photo-tips.co ... -lens.html

I don't expect them to be as good as a full size lense on a propper camera, but they are cheap and maybe useful for the hobbyist.

Daz

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Re: Lenses

Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:31 pm

techpaul wrote:
jamesh wrote:
They may be simple to you, and I presume by FOV you mean Field of view (which I don't know although I have tried to find out), but what do you mean by MTF?
Field of View and Modulation Transfer Function are basis of how much light and how much resolution you can get through a lens. Modulation Transfer Function relates to light levels over the lens and how many Line Pairs/mm you resolve which is directly relational to sharpness and contrast of the image.

Otherwise you may have a 41MP imager but its true accuracy could be 1MP, if it is good you should be able to actually meaure these factors for lens and for lens/imager combination.

With imaging devices (and even film cameras) the real resolution is NOT the number of pixels but how well you can resolve image features.

I have over last 30 years been involved or designed parts of imaging systems for many areas from microscopes to security cameras and even stuff to work in InfraRed range to measure 0K to 1400K temperature ranges, that one need a large crew of people to calibrate the imager over 48hours continuous operation.
Please go and look at some of the images produced by the 808 sensor. They are very impressive and by far the best images seen from a cameraphone. Almost up with basic DSLR standard, especially in low light. Lots of pixels and the biggest lens found in a cameraphone plus some very good image processing means much better quality images than you might expect from such a sensor and lens. There are some very clever things you can do with all those extra pixels, and it took in excess of 10 man years of work to get it that way.

MTF? The sensor on the Foundation camera board is a cheap and cheerful camera phone sensor, not as good as the 808 sensor, and not in the same league as the basic lenses on a DSLR. You will be getting the whole device for $30 or less. MTF? If you are expecting fantastic image quality on a par with SLR's or similiar, well, you may well be disappointed!

Forgot to say - the sensor in the 808 has a Carl Zeiss lens, so is pretty good quality, albeit small. The N8, the 808 predecessor was 12MP with the same pixel density, and similar Carl Zeiss lens.
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Re: Lenses

Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:40 pm

Found some of the Nokia samples..these were done before the final sensor tunings.

http://mynokiablog.com/2012/02/27/offic ... d-enhance/
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Re: Lenses

Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:37 pm

jamesh wrote:Please go and look at some of the images produced by the 808 sensor. They are very impressive and by far the best images seen from a cameraphone. Almost up with basic DSLR standard, especially in low light. Lots of pixels
That expression there means you dont understand difference between resolution and accuracy.
and the biggest lens found in a cameraphone plus some very good image processing means much better quality images than you might expect from such a sensor and lens. There are some very clever things you can do with all those extra pixels, and it took in excess of 10 man years of work to get it that way.
it does not matter how much image processing you do (yes I know about that and using DSPs/FPGAs for all sorts like that in real time), the basic tenant is "If the information is not there in the first place you cannot make it appear". Despite what the movies and TV might show.

At best with image processing you get a guess of what MIGHT be there, yes I have spent many of my imaging years dealing image processing and video even for real time 3D.
MTF? The sensor on the Foundation camera board
the question was about the Nokia you keep raving about.
is a cheap and cheerful camera phone sensor, not as good as the 808 sensor, and not in the same league as the basic lenses on a DSLR. You will be getting the whole device for $30 or less.
I know what price range and with cheap and cheerful lens why are you even bothering above 2MP? Yes I have design cameras in that price range with M12 glass lens and we stopped at 1MP for many reasons first being lens ability to resolve down to accuracy for 1MP or above, so why waste time and data. Sure you can get a lot of pixels, with chunks basically having imager noise on being the difference.
MTF? If you are expecting fantastic image quality on a par with SLR's or similiar, well, you may well be disappointed!
It will be yet another 5MP lucky to acheive 2MP accuracy even with "image processing". Basically GIGO as you dont understand MTF, you dont understand what true 5MP is.
Forgot to say - the sensor in the 808 has a Carl Zeiss lens, so is pretty good quality, albeit small. The N8, the 808 predecessor was 12MP with the same pixel density, and similar Carl Zeiss lens.
Lots of people make lens, good bad and indifferent even the "brands", all are designed for the price and application requirements. Lots of those folks actually have ranges for how many MP, but the mobile phone manufacturers tend to believe more pixels is better when better lens is more important and only inetersted in this months model anyway. Just like in compact and DSLR cameras Optical zoom matters not digital zoom

If you dont have highest possible resolution and accuracy coming in then you are wasting your time and fudging the issue with processing tricks.
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Re: Lenses

Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:45 pm

OK, please stop this - I don't like being told I don't know my job. I haven't accused you of knowing nothing about lenses, you obviously do, so please refrain from saying I don't know about image sensors. Now, I'm not an total expert on sensors, but I seem to know more than you do about them.

Yes, lenses are important, and no, you cannot create information that isn't there, but I am afraid you knowledge of image processing and its capabilities are out of date.

Did you even look at the example images I linked to? The detail you seem to think will be missing is actually there! Please get off your out of date lens high horse, and just look at the damn images!
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