charleslinquist
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V3 camera in the works?

Tue Jan 31, 2017 8:48 pm

I have need of a better camera for the RPi. One that will do 1920 X 1280 / 30 FPS, and one that will allow me to easily put a variety of lenses on it. One with a 1/3 sensor would be nice.

I have heard rumors of a Raspberry pi V3 camera that someone is working on, but I don't know if that information is true, or what the specs might be.

And if you are a person developing (or thinking of developing) that new camera module, please use a narrower data cable (in the middle at least) to connect the camera to the pi. The current cable is not very conducive to bending over short distances.

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Re: V3 camera in the works?

Wed Feb 01, 2017 1:41 pm

The RPF does not announce stuff like this in advance.

Rumours are exactly that, rumours.

With regard to the cable, that's not something I've heard requested before. You could probably get a custom cable made up, but the connectors at each end won't be changing. Not sure of the implications of finer pitched cable with regard to noise/crosstalk.
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charleslinquist
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Re: V3 camera in the works?

Wed Feb 01, 2017 2:04 pm

Thanks for responding.

I think more people will be asking for better cameras for security, drone and robot uses, and for use with OpenCV. The higher computing power of the Rpi3 greatly increases the possibilities in the area of machine vision.

The finer pitch cable would increase the crosstalk and degrade the signals a bit, but the system can probably handle that as evidenced by the fact that I have a 1 meter cable of the "standard" pitch. It works fine.
I can get a cable made, but the cost for only 4 pieces (what I need) would be high. But if the finer pitch cable became the standard...

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Re: V3 camera in the works?

Wed Feb 01, 2017 2:34 pm

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/For-Raspberry ... 1366510322
OK so higher cost than the flexis, but also smaller diameter.
Don't ask for comment on the crosstalk you'll get with multiple high speed conductors in such close proximity. Do remember that digital signals will just go, no degeneration into noise first, and as image lines have CRCs on them, you can get some odd results.

Already covered by third parties, so no need for the basic Pi camera to change.
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Re: V3 camera in the works?

Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:14 pm

6by9 wrote:http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/For-Raspberry ... 1366510322
OK so higher cost than the flexis, but also smaller diameter.
Don't ask for comment on the crosstalk you'll get with multiple high speed conductors in such close proximity. Do remember that digital signals will just go, no degeneration into noise first, and as image lines have CRCs on them, you can get some odd results.

Already covered by third parties, so no need for the basic Pi camera to change.
Yes I agree, that with Heatshrink (or ghetto taped) would work "fine". Now if someone was to actually use shielded cables for each signal line, and grounded it with the paired ground line I suspect you could eek out more length or SNR at least anyway.

My request for a a V3 camera....

1) a bigger sensor. yes like a 1/3.
2) any way to change the lens profile. Or at least let us have a known nice M12 or CS mount lens that can be optionally specified. I would buy said lens (in qty) from the RPF if available at a markup to account for the lens shader development

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Re: V3 camera in the works?

Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:54 am

A bigger sensor with 12mm lens mount would be nice.
But which lens?
Start_x.elf has the colour/lens corrections in it, now for two cameras.

As we have been told, the ISP (image sensor pipeline) stuff is not easy to do.
The Broadcom ISP has not been opened and the chances of it ever happening is not high :(

The option is getting the raw data and doing everything with NEON/SIMD.
Which would be doable for someone who knows how, er not me yet :oops:
Even people who know all this can get it wrong, like the focus issue on the V2.
This focus issue was I think just a production miscommunication.

Sunny make a lot of camera modules.
V3 will have auto focus and be zoomable? Liquid lens?
Want to do the lens correction for that?

As an educational tool, an open way to use any camera means open vision stuff could be used by anyone. Anyone who can do lens and colour correction on Pi's then might get job offers :lol:
The more people who can do this is surely a benefit to the industry.

The Pi was designed to teach coding because just one University was not getting enough students who knew anything about coding.

Sensor data analysis is the next stage once you can blink a LED :D
Surveillance systems are everywhere now, making them smarter requires programmers who can use sensor data and even code in assembler for Deep learning optimizations.

In the future the analysis could be done on the image sensor to reduce power, size etc
Going to need chip designers who understand all that.
Time of flight sensors, multilens cameras etc, it is getting more complex, not simpler, as the chips get smaller the pixels and capabilities on the sensor will increase.

Things like this would become easier to use?
http://opencv.org/
http://camellia.sourceforge.net/
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Re: V3 camera in the works?

Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:25 am

People need to understand the huge cost associated with using a different camera module. This is not a 'plug it in and it works' type of thing.

First you need to write a camera driver. This involved a lot of faffing around getting the different modes to work even once you can talk to the damn things. That's man weeks of work.

Then comes the hard part. You now need to tune the ISP so that the Bayer data off the camera actually looks half decent after processing. This can be man MONTHS or even YEARS of work to get a good result.

So moving to a new camera is not something that is taken lightly, and supplying multiple camera types is also something that need very careful management of time and engineering.
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Re: V3 camera in the works?

Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:07 pm

Then comes the hard part. You now need to tune the ISP so that the Bayer data off the camera actually looks half decent after processing. This can be man MONTHS or even YEARS of work to get a good result.
Open it up and offer a bounty, should take a few weeks :lol:
Hmm, just wondering if this is something deep learning could be used for?
But secret BCM and camera registers makes it much harder.

Image recognition stuff is of IoT sensor interest, there will be billions of them out there.
But if ISP coding is kept secret the opportunity goes to someone else.
What market group at Broadcom do the BCM2835/6/7 chips fall into these days?

Of course if Broadcom decides their IP is too important for 10M Pi's to use and understand then they will lose to????? Intel with Movidius?
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Re: V3 camera in the works?

Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:21 pm

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Then comes the hard part. You now need to tune the ISP so that the Bayer data off the camera actually looks half decent after processing. This can be man MONTHS or even YEARS of work to get a good result.
Open it up and offer a bounty, should take a few weeks :lol:
Hmm, just wondering if this is something deep learning could be used for?
But secret BCM and camera registers makes it much harder.

Image recognition stuff is of IoT sensor interest, there will be billions of them out there.
But if ISP coding is kept secret the opportunity goes to someone else.
What market group at Broadcom do the BCM2835/6/7 chips fall into these days?

Of course if Broadcom decides their IP is too important for 10M Pi's to use and understand then they will lose to????? Intel with Movidius?
Brcm got rid of the entire camera team. Couple of us now work at RPF(trad). Not sure what still uses the VC ISP, not sure why its still the 'most secret' part of the VC, but I am sure there are pretty good reasons.

With regard to time, it's simply a long process to tune a sensor. Some of it can be done automatically, but it requires a imaging lab with very specific lighting to do a good job, along with some fairly expensive equipment, and people who know what they are doing.
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Re: V3 camera in the works?

Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:02 pm

but it requires a imaging lab with very specific lighting to do a good job,
Been there, but it was only just for focusing, lighting was a real pain, blackout curtains etc.
Had to make a stepper motor focus jig and got the camera to focus itself by looking for maximum jpeg size. Big printouts of the test charts stuck to the roof and for VGA res large chip with 12mm lens and who really worries about distortion on wide angle lenses anyway.
Brcm got rid of the entire camera team
Well that IP has gone forever then. BCM use cameras in any other product now?

A lot more issues with smaller lens and sensor to correct all the artifacts.

What about going low res 1.3Mp/2Mp with M12?
Er can you get low res MIPI sensors?
For some applications smaller res is fine, good for lower light, machine vision etc.

But Sunny have some interesting modules.
RGBIR dual camera module? AF versions, Zoom ones.
Low light, wider angle,mono, liquid lens? hmm, been here before I think.

Not sure how many V1/V2 have been sold, nearly got as many as I have Pi's.
But I don't think 10M have been sold.

Just a driver to get raw image off, is that within short time frame?
Don't even bother tuning them, let people figure it out, lots to be learned doing that.
A lower cost, low res camera to go with the Zero, robotics etc.
Lego colour brick sorters.

I'm learning NEON stuff for things like this.
Don't need bayer for monosensor ;)

Some interesting sensors
OV9281 1Mp global shutter 120fps
Sony Starvis 1.3Mp IXS-017-0AWR 120fps day/night chip
The tiny Sony IU233N2-Z/IU233N5-Z
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Re: V3 camera in the works?

Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:01 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Brcm got rid of the entire camera team
Well that IP has gone forever then. BCM use cameras in any other product now?
Rpf now has enough people to do work on the camera system, so we can now get more bugs fixed and new features added. So the IP is still under development.
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Re: V3 camera in the works?

Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:14 am

Rpf now has enough people to do work on the camera system,
Yippee, that means the cameras won't be orphans.
Can we expect more family members?

There are some effects filter options that would be nice to have the VC4 to do.
NDVI and ENDVI using the NOIR cameras with blue and red filters.
http://www.maxmax.com/endvi.htm
False colour effects would then be needed too.

Been recently playing with $20,000 USB multispectral cameras that plug into Pi's.
With filters and appropriate colour leds a Pi camera could be every useful for medical and agri use.

Some way of getting the VC4 to read a simple formula and run it over the image data would allow a generic effect to be made specific.
Maybe take the effects filters out of the start_x.elf file and put them into another file that can be modified.

Obviously that could be applied to the lens and colour correction data too for different lens.
But as you say that would take much longer to do.

Some of this can be done with Mathematica and python etc but it is very slow.
This would also be useful to stick on robot arms so they can grab the stinkbugs, caterpillars, snails and grasshoppers that plague any attempt at home gardening :(

Larger lens, less pixels, larger pixel size sensors are more sensitive for those nighttime snails, hint ;)
With the filter effects external to start_x then we can play with various colour leds to separate the bugs from the plants. Leds come in lots of colours now, with narrow/multi band filters lots of stuff can be done.

Red and infrared leds are used for agri crop health use but they are also used for road surface analysis machines.

With RGB leds and programmable filter effects, a quick Lego brick sorter could be made.
Ripe fruit pickers? spotted fruit sorters........
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Re: V3 camera in the works?

Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:33 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Rpf now has enough people to do work on the camera system,
Yippee, that means the cameras won't be orphans.
Can we expect more family members?

There are some effects filter options that would be nice to have the VC4 to do.
NDVI and ENDVI using the NOIR cameras with blue and red filters.
http://www.maxmax.com/endvi.htm
False colour effects would then be needed too.

Been recently playing with $20,000 USB multispectral cameras that plug into Pi's.
With filters and appropriate colour leds a Pi camera could be every useful for medical and agri use.

Some way of getting the VC4 to read a simple formula and run it over the image data would allow a generic effect to be made specific.
Maybe take the effects filters out of the start_x.elf file and put them into another file that can be modified.

Obviously that could be applied to the lens and colour correction data too for different lens.
But as you say that would take much longer to do.

Some of this can be done with Mathematica and python etc but it is very slow.
This would also be useful to stick on robot arms so they can grab the stinkbugs, caterpillars, snails and grasshoppers that plague any attempt at home gardening :(

Larger lens, less pixels, larger pixel size sensors are more sensitive for those nighttime snails, hint ;)
With the filter effects external to start_x then we can play with various colour leds to separate the bugs from the plants. Leds come in lots of colours now, with narrow/multi band filters lots of stuff can be done.

Red and infrared leds are used for agri crop health use but they are also used for road surface analysis machines.

With RGB leds and programmable filter effects, a quick Lego brick sorter could be made.
Ripe fruit pickers? spotted fruit sorters........
Whilst there are now staff who know about cameras, that doesn't necessarily mean that is what they are working on. We should be able to work through the camera bug list though. There are some areas that definitely need attention.
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Re: V3 camera in the works?

Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:09 pm

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Rpf now has enough people to do work on the camera system,
Yippee, that means the cameras won't be orphans.
Can we expect more family members?

There are some effects filter options that would be nice to have the VC4 to do.
NDVI and ENDVI using the NOIR cameras with blue and red filters.
http://www.maxmax.com/endvi.htm
False colour effects would then be needed too.

Been recently playing with $20,000 USB multispectral cameras that plug into Pi's.
With filters and appropriate colour leds a Pi camera could be every useful for medical and agri use.

Some way of getting the VC4 to read a simple formula and run it over the image data would allow a generic effect to be made specific.
Maybe take the effects filters out of the start_x.elf file and put them into another file that can be modified.

Obviously that could be applied to the lens and colour correction data too for different lens.
But as you say that would take much longer to do.

Some of this can be done with Mathematica and python etc but it is very slow.
This would also be useful to stick on robot arms so they can grab the stinkbugs, caterpillars, snails and grasshoppers that plague any attempt at home gardening :(

Larger lens, less pixels, larger pixel size sensors are more sensitive for those nighttime snails, hint ;)
With the filter effects external to start_x then we can play with various colour leds to separate the bugs from the plants. Leds come in lots of colours now, with narrow/multi band filters lots of stuff can be done.

Red and infrared leds are used for agri crop health use but they are also used for road surface analysis machines.

With RGB leds and programmable filter effects, a quick Lego brick sorter could be made.
Ripe fruit pickers? spotted fruit sorters........
Hi,

With regard to quickly identifying bugs amongst plants with cheaper hardware could image target 'reduction' be used to reduce the demand on the camera hardware?. Perhaps fast open source image recognition and motion analysis (C++/OpenCV?) could reduce the requirement for spectral analysis. Perhaps plants and insects have basic colours, shapes and patterns of movement that allow the two to be reliably separated from a 2D image?.

Then perhaps you could make your own filter wheel to fit in front of the Pi Camera V2 or maybe two simpler filter wheels in front of two or three Pi Cameras with two or three PIs (One Pi3 in centre and two Zeros with network adapters?) which could also give some stereoscopic data to help separate any hard to spot bugs from the plants.

Regards

Nik

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Re: V3 camera in the works?

Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:02 am

Cameras with two or three PIs (One Pi3 in centre and two Zeros with network adapters?) which could also give some stereoscopic data to help separate any hard to spot bugs from the plants.
I would like to use the Zero as Cameras that do some preprocessing.
If used as USB gadgets 4 x Zero could plug into one Pi 2/3, then each core could do the cv stuff per camera. This sort of speed is only really needed on drones etc

For something like this farmbot high speed is not really needed, especially for snails.
https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/farmbo ... ing-robot/

For flying bugs movement detection might work.
For grasshoppers and caterpillars shape recog is needed.
So each pest is a AI different problem.
If the camera is on the robot arm then you can get closer and so don't need high res sensors.

Now if this farmbot is integrated into an aquaponics setup, a pair of grippers could grab the bug and feed it to the fish ;)
Silent Running fans will understand if I name the bots Huey, Dewey and Louie.
Each one optimised for a different pest.

So that is why the filter effects need to be programmable as it could be edges for shape or colours needing to be used. Doing this in the VC4 frees up the ARM for doing the recog/AI stuff.
Some AI could be done in the VC4 using the Deep Belief library.
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Re: V3 camera in the works?

Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:46 am

[quote="Gavinmc42"
I would like to use the Zero as Cameras that do some preprocessing.
If used as USB gadgets 4 x Zero could plug into one Pi 2/3, then each core could do the cv stuff per camera. This sort of speed is only really needed on drones etc.
[/quote]

Hi,

Sorry I thought the farm was large so speed would be an issue.

Also you seemed to ask about replacing CPU based image colour processing with VC4 image colour processing - is there a reason you would like to use the VC4 for that apart from speed?.

You mentioned Mathematica and Python as being slow for this sort of problem - another reason I thought speed was a concern hence my suggestion of C++.

Regards

Nik

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Re: V3 camera in the works?

Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:05 am

Drones, robots, security, farming, crop protection, lawn mowing, picking up the kids Lego.
And I want to do all this without an OS and with Deep Learning AI methods, coded in pascal and assembly.

How much can be done in the ARM core/s and how much in the GPU will determine how much control is left for the ARM cpu/s to control the rest of the bot.

Oh and I want to make semi autonomous Ant combat bots with Zeros for the kid to have fun with.
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Re: V3 camera in the works?

Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:04 am

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Re: V3 camera in the works?

Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:42 am

1000fps wow, that would be something if it works on a $5 Zero :lol:
Hmm, 10 x Zero's = 10,000fps for $50

All sorts of motion capture stuff could be done.
Maybe next year or 2019? V4/V5?
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Re: V3 camera in the works?

Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:24 pm

RaTTuS wrote:hopefully it will be one of these
http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press ... index.html
From the spec
MIPI (CSI2) D-PHY 2.2Gbps/lane / C-PHY 2.0Gsps/lane

Would that need something new from RPi?

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Re: V3 camera in the works?

Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:21 pm

Paul Webster wrote:
RaTTuS wrote:hopefully it will be one of these
http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press ... index.html
From the spec
MIPI (CSI2) D-PHY 2.2Gbps/lane / C-PHY 2.0Gsps/lane

Would that need something new from RPi?
IIRC The current Pi CSI-2 receiver supports up to 1Gbps/lane, although there is also a limit of 500MPix/s. Generally D-PHY is used.
You'd almost certainly want 4 lanes (only available on the CM CAM1 port, 2 lanes everywhere else), although the ISP will then be overstretched trying to process pixels at that rate.

I was actually having a conversation about this with hardware folk earlier - once you're pushing 1.5GHz then you have to add individual lane skew compensation as it becomes harder and harder to match path lengths.
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Re: V3 camera in the works?

Thu Feb 09, 2017 3:09 am

I have some previous experience with sensor manufacturers.
Lots of sensors get designed but not all make it to full production.
The ones that do usually have a big customer lined up already.

The same situation with LCDs, I have seen brilliant daylight visible colour LC displays that never got to full production. Even 10-15 years ago they were better in the sunlight than 99% of those made today.
Even today apart from epaper I would be hard pressed to name a production tablet, phone, camera that has a Ozzie daylight colour display. All because a bit of plastic film adds $1 to the cost.

The Omnivision sensor got dropped, the Sony one will too one day/month/year.
It is not just V3, RFP need to worry about it is V4,5,6,7....

Similar sort of thing with the BCM2835/6/7, but slightly less market volatility with the CPU.
But we have seen BCM2836 go, going, gone.

RFP was and still is a small player, but a high profile one.
Will a sensor manufacture see this as an opportunity for marketing or a possibility of losing sensor IP?
The image sensors today will be quite different 10years from now.
Who will be coding for them then? Some spotty teenager learning on a Pi today? :lol:

It looks like the RPF now has enough ex BC ISP guys to keep momentum, thank goodness.
And most still have a decade or so before being put out to pasture ;)

As long as there is demand I imagine there will be a V3.....Just like there will be a Pi4 in 2018/9?
It's not as if demand and production has slowed down for Pi's.
How many countries are they made in now? 3-4? losing track, UK/ Wales,China,Japan...
What is camera to Pi ratio sales?
Imagine the demand if they bring out a $5 - Full HD 2Mp camera to go with the Zero :o
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Re: V3 camera in the works?

Thu Feb 09, 2017 3:08 pm

Let's not forget the educational aims of the foundation. From that point of view, is V3 really needed? Wasn't the only reason the V2 came about was because the stocks of the OV5647 ran out?

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Re: V3 camera in the works?

Thu Feb 09, 2017 3:15 pm

Gavinmc42 wrote: The Omnivision sensor got dropped, the Sony one will too one day/month/year.
It is not just V3, RFP need to worry about it is V4,5,6,7....
The RPF knows what it is doing. No need to worry.
Gavinmc42 wrote: Similar sort of thing with the BCM2835/6/7, but slightly less market volatility with the CPU.
But we have seen BCM2836 go, going, gone.
Because it was not required any more, the 2837 can do the same job at the same price. The 2835 is still being produced.
Gavinmc42 wrote: RFP was and still is a small player, but a high profile one.
Will a sensor manufacture see this as an opportunity for marketing or a possibility of losing sensor IP?
The image sensors today will be quite different 10years from now.
Who will be coding for them then? Some spotty teenager learning on a Pi today? :lol:
I hope so.
Gavinmc42 wrote: It looks like the RPF now has enough ex BC ISP guys to keep momentum, thank goodness.
And most still have a decade or so before being put out to pasture ;)
Just over a decade, but who is counting.
Gavinmc42 wrote: As long as there is demand I imagine there will be a V3.....Just like there will be a Pi4 in 2018/9?
It's not as if demand and production has slowed down for Pi's.
How many countries are they made in now? 3-4? losing track, UK/ Wales,China,Japan...
What is camera to Pi ratio sales?
Imagine the demand if they bring out a $5 - Full HD 2Mp camera to go with the Zero :o
Cameras are an income stream. $5 camera are not. If it costs $100k to get a camera working, and you make $0.25 on each sale, you have to sell a hell of a lot of them just break even. Note, these are simply example figures, specific sales figures/costs of stuff is never published.
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Re: V3 camera in the works?

Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:24 am

Cameras are an income stream. $5 camera are not
$5 is pure wishful thinking, I would pay $10-15 for a 1Mp :lol:
Maybe $25 for a Zero plus camera set.
Just over a decade, but who is counting.
Me, Pi's have been around for just over half a decade, time flies when you are having fun :lol:
And things always take longer than you expect.
BCM28xx? in another decade? Hmm 3 cpu version in 5 yrs, 10 years is another 6 cpus?
Hope you guys have no early retirement plans :lol:

Even if you start or have starting working on a v3 it could be obsolete by the time the magic software is good enough.

Learning camera sensor tuning is educational?
The physics and maths involved are not for the uneducated.
Lens and colour correction requires serious brain stretching, sudoku for my old age.
Who know it might lead to some smart kid developing software to make it easy for the rest of us :oops:

The sense hat is great for lots of other sensors but for human interaction stuff, vision and hearing are our primary communication methods.

Actually surprised that there is no official Pi stereo microphone plug in yet.
Dual i2s mems mics and i2s software with RGB leds? But that is another post.

Oh and my major use now for the 5 and 8MP cameras is security cameras, I use the 2x2 bin methods as I don't need full resolution. This would tend to indicate 1-2Mp chip is good enough.

Seem to remember the original prototype was a 14Mp, was that ever tuned?
Dust off the old code? It seems most smartphones are settling in around 12-16Mp.

Maybe have a range of choices, three camera models with without IR filters.
1-2-Mp, 3-6Mp, 8-12Mp?

Some new tech on filters means same sensor can do IR like the new Panasonics.
http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.com ... ensor.html

With the dual camera modules coming out from China, maybe single chip modules re on the way out

Maybe Pi4 will use a Mediatek CPU with depth of field cameras?
Anyway you guys are going to have fun.
I'm dancing on Rainbows.
Raspberries are not Apples or Oranges

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