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alexeames
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Sun May 01, 2016 4:27 pm

jbeale wrote:
hystrix wrote:There's virtually nothing in focus in my shots with the V2.1 camera. The dragon in this photo is 70cm from the lens:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/lfxvr2hu8mirf ... 3.jpg?dl=0
Moving the camera 40cm from the subject is a bit better: https://www.dropbox.com/s/dlav27jry1dwz ... 4.jpg?dl=0
The second image looks very good to me. It shows at 40 cm (at least in the center of the frame) the lens resolves so well it would benefit from better moire filtering. That agrees with my result that my lens worked well at 30 cm: http://bealecorner.org/best/RPi/PiCamV2-test7.jpg

I wonder if adding an external -3 diopter (concave; diverging) lens would give a good result on distant objects. Having now destroyed two lenses with pliers trying to refocus them myself, I do not recommend that route, unless you arrange a jig so the pliers cannot snap closed when slipping off the edge and damage the lens.
I don't understand the need for pliers. With my original Pi camera 2 (which I sent back) I scratched through the three glue blobs with a scalpel and was then able to rotate the lens just by using my finger nail with quite low force.
Alex Eames RasPi.TV, RasP.iO

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jbeale
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Sun May 01, 2016 5:42 pm

alexeames wrote:I don't understand the need for pliers. With my original Pi camera 2 (which I sent back) I scratched through the three glue blobs with a scalpel and was then able to rotate the lens just by using my finger nail with quite low force.
I applaud your superior technique! It seemed to me that the glue had wicked into the threads in at least one place, and scratching off the surface blob would not be adequate, but I did not try your method and went straight to the blunt instruments.
Image

Koepi
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Sun May 01, 2016 5:52 pm

Funny, exactly the same time when I finally took a photo of the Cam V2 PCB :D

Front:
http://www.pic-upload.de/view-30524969/ ... t.jpg.html

Back:
http://www.pic-upload.de/view-30524968/ ... k.jpg.html

In close-up you can see the lens seems to have a scratch from the start. I can see a blob at the ~10 o'clock position, maybe another one between 3-4 o'clock.
It's so tiny in reality that I don't think a scalpel would work except for the glue on the surface side?

Koepi
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Sun May 01, 2016 6:46 pm

24h later - Cam crashed again.
sudo reboot left the Pi in an unusable state, needed to pull the plug (power supply).

Calling raspistill again threw this error:
mmal: mmal_vc_component_enable: failed to enable component: ENOSPC
mmal: camera component couldn't be enabled
mmal: main: Failed to create camera component
mmal: Failed to run camera app. Please check for firmware updates

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Trixster
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Sun May 01, 2016 7:10 pm

Sounds like this new camera is a complete no-go area at the moment. Disappointing.

naushir
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Sun May 01, 2016 9:21 pm

Koepi wrote:24h later - Cam crashed again.
sudo reboot left the Pi in an unusable state, needed to pull the plug (power supply).

Calling raspistill again threw this error:
mmal: mmal_vc_component_enable: failed to enable component: ENOSPC
mmal: camera component couldn't be enabled
mmal: main: Failed to create camera component
mmal: Failed to run camera app. Please check for firmware updates
I ran a 1000 iterations of raspistill and cannot see any leaks. @Koepi, if this happens again, can you send me the output of the following:

Code: Select all

sudo vcdbg malloc
sudo vcdbg reloc
sudo vcdbg log msg
Can you also share the exact command you are running?

michelpi
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Sun May 01, 2016 9:31 pm

For those wanting to use the raspberry pi camera's in low light conditions (e.g. security video at night), i did a test with both the v1 and v2 camera, with the same lens, and the same exposure time. I increased the brightness and contrast in both images, so that you can better compare the noise type and levels.

The lens i used is a 8 mm, f/2.0 lens designed for a 3 megapixel camera.

Here are the cropped photo's, so that you can see the difference:
Image

The photos were taken through a window.

Originals:
http://www.pic-upload.de/view-30527571/ ... 0.jpg.html
http://www.pic-upload.de/view-30527578/ ... 0.jpg.html

It appears that the v1 camera performs much better under these conditions. You can see that the v1 has a banding problem. The v2 doesn't, but it has blocking artifacts and severe loss of resolution in the dark parts.

Please note that if you use the factory lenses, the v2 camera will come out relatively better, because its factory lens has twice the amount of light gathering because of the bigger lens f-number.
Last edited by michelpi on Sun May 01, 2016 10:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Koepi
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Sun May 01, 2016 9:33 pm

I will do, naushir, thank you.

I capture a picture every minute. This is the script called via cron:

Code: Select all

#!/bin/bash

DATE=$(date +"%Y-%m-%d_%H%M")
DIR=$(date +"%Y-%m-%d")
TIME=$(date +"%H%M")
SUNRISE=0500
SUNSET=2130

cd /var/www
FILE=$DATE.jpg

if [ $TIME -lt $SUNRISE -o $TIME -gt $SUNSET ]; then
   raspistill -mm matrix -ISO 800 -ev 6 -ss 4000000 -t 1500 -n -q 82 -w 1920 -h 1080 -o $FILE
else
   raspistill -mm matrix -n -t 1500 -q 82 -w 1920 -h 1080 -o $FILE
fi

cp $FILE snapshot.jpg

if [ $TIME == 0900 ];
then
    raspistill -mm matrix -n -t 1500 -q 82 -o ./longterm/$FILE
fi

if [ $TIME -gt $SUNRISE -a $TIME -lt $SUNSET ]; then
HOST="<server>"
USER="<user>"
PASSWORD="<pw>"
FTPPATH='/WD-5000BEVExternal-01/webcam/'

wput  -B $FILE ftp://$USER:$PASSWORD@$HOST$FTPPATH$DIR/
fi

rm $FILE
exit 0
More Information, don't know if it helps:

Code: Select all

pi@campi ~ $ uname -a
Linux campi 4.4.8+ #881 Sat Apr 30 12:10:24 BST 2016 armv6l GNU/Linux

Code: Select all

pi@campi ~ $ cat /etc/os-release
PRETTY_NAME="Raspbian GNU/Linux 7 (wheezy)"
NAME="Raspbian GNU/Linux"
VERSION_ID="7"
VERSION="7 (wheezy)"
ID=raspbian
ID_LIKE=debian
ANSI_COLOR="1;31"
HOME_URL="http://www.raspbian.org/"
SUPPORT_URL="http://www.raspbian.org/RaspbianForums"
BUG_REPORT_URL="http://www.raspbian.org/RaspbianBugs"
May I need to move to Jessie? sudo apt-get dist-upgrade shows no upgrade available ...

Edit: Did an upgrade this night, went smooth (except for cron stopping to work at 0:35h this night and leaving a huge gap in my temperature+humidity-logging ;) Fixed by reboot.)

Code: Select all

pi@campi ~ $ cat /etc/os-release
PRETTY_NAME="Raspbian GNU/Linux 8 (jessie)"
NAME="Raspbian GNU/Linux"
VERSION_ID="8"
VERSION="8 (jessie)"
ID=raspbian
ID_LIKE=debian
HOME_URL="http://www.raspbian.org/"
SUPPORT_URL="http://www.raspbian.org/RaspbianForums"
BUG_REPORT_URL="http://www.raspbian.org/RaspbianBugs"
Edit2: That upgrade was a bad idea, Pi crashes 5 minutes after start, reliably. As I had to leave for work I'm not able to try to fix that until this evening. Hopefully it's just that weird CRDA service missing-issue with Jessie upgrades.
Last edited by Koepi on Mon May 02, 2016 8:55 am, edited 2 times in total.

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jbeale
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Sun May 01, 2016 11:16 pm

michelpi wrote: i did a test with both the v1 and v2 camera, with the same lens, and the same exposure time. I increased the brightness and contrast in both images, so that you can better compare the noise type and levels.
The lens i used is a 8 mm, f/2.0 lens designed for a 3 megapixel camera.
Image
That is an interesting comparison. It seems to me that increasing brightness in post-processing makes the v2 blocking problem obvious, but you can also change the brightness settings before capture, which may make the v2 camera fare relatively better than it does here, because blocking is generally a compression artifact, not native to the sensor itself.

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Gavinmc42
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Mon May 02, 2016 12:56 am

Just wondering if a different IR filter is used?
V2 has much less green than the V1, is some IR getting through?
Green vegetation looks redder, just a little like the Noir day time images.

Have to do further testing but night shots seem to have more colour than any other camera I have.
Been running a V2 all night and on and off for a few days, still working.

Been reading up on camera chips, plenty of smart phones with lots more pixels, 12,14,18Mp.
8Mp is not pushing the edge, but you can bet more engineers are tweaking stuff at Samsung etc.

Focus issues = bad lens, wrong focus during module assembly/testing, blob software that add blur?

If more IR is getting through, it might explain a few things.
Green wash out, non blue skies.
Anyone saved an IR filter from V1 camera mods?
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Raspberries are not Apples or Oranges

michelpi
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Mon May 02, 2016 6:01 am

> That is an interesting comparison. It seems to me that increasing brightness in post-processing makes the v2 blocking problem obvious, but you can also change the brightness settings before capture, which may make the v2 camera fare relatively better than it does here, because blocking is generally a compression artifact, not native to the sensor itself.

Indeed, the blocking looks mostly like a compression or noise reduction artifact. It remains visible though even if you set the jpg-compression quality to 100%.

To me, it looks a bit like as if the black point correction of the v2 camera is set too high. Or maybe there is some overly active noise-reduction algorithm in the hardware or software.

To be sure, we would need to compare the raw images, but i don't have a way of extracting those yet.

In general i think there is little reason to expect the v2 sensor to be much more sensitive than v1; both are bsi sensors, but the v2 pixels are smaller, which makes it harder for the manufacturer to control things such as readout noise.

Koepi
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Mon May 02, 2016 8:59 am

michelpi wrote:>In general i think there is little reason to expect the v2 sensor to be much more sensitive than v1; both are bsi sensors, but the v2 pixels are smaller, which makes it harder for the manufacturer to control things such as readout noise.
Just compare those OV sensor images with Sony sensor images - you can find those from smartphones usually. Sony sensors are superior. It's like comparing a VW Golf with a Mercedes Benz. Both have nice motors ;) but the later are definately better in every aspect (except for the price tag).

hystrix
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Mon May 02, 2016 9:02 am

I found a way to upgrade a v1.3 camera to v2.1 - wrap about 5 layers of cling film over the lens, then upscale the resulting image to 8MP. :roll:

Seriously though, is there anything being done about the focus issues with the V2.1 camera?

YvesG
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Mon May 02, 2016 5:42 pm

From what i read here the 8MP camera is a NOGO.
Any positive experience so far?
I think the Foundation should warn the community if those issues are due to the hardware.

Koepi
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Mon May 02, 2016 6:22 pm

YvesG wrote:From what i read here the 8MP camera is a NOGO.
I beg to differ. It depends on your use case. It's bad for full 8MP images. As soon as you need less resolution - for example full hd 1920 x 1080 - the cam fares ok; the interpolation then leads to a mostly enjoyable picture (mine doesn't as I additionally have a misaligned lens it seems). The sensor itself is clearly superior, only the optics are not on-par.

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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Mon May 02, 2016 6:33 pm

Gavinmc42 wrote:Until I make a good lens remover/gripper, I won't be using pliers to swap lenses:)
Will need a test chart too.
A newspaper, flyer, or anything with fine print can be used for lens testing. There are also some test charts in PDF format you could print on my web page at http://www.bealecorner.org/red/test-patterns/

But note, test charts are normally used relatively close to the camera, for cameras that have adjustable focus. We already know at least some of the v2.1 cameras perform well on such charts, as long as they are held at 30 to 40 cm away. For example, this test at 40 cm from hystrix: https://www.dropbox.com/s/dlav27jry1dwz ... 4.jpg?dl=0 or this page of fine print at 30 cm from me: http://bealecorner.org/best/RPi/PiCamV2-test7.jpg

If you want to test a fixed-focus camera that is set at infinity, such charts have little value (unless you have a secondary close-up lens to make them appear at optical infinity to the test device). Otherwise you just need a large distant target like buildings, trees etc.

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Gavinmc42
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Tue May 03, 2016 3:47 am

We used to focus our security sensors on the bench with BIG charts on the roof:)

Lots of the V2 focus complaints are coming from outdoor use..
I use my front fence railings 8m+ away, the V2 is worse than the V1 at the edges and looks out of focus a little in the middle.
Trying to figure out how to make a lens twister now, might have to dust off the lathe and grab some brass bar stock.
Maybe some brass tubing with notches filed in it?

Probably a market for a 3D printed focus jig?
Still leaves the colour issues.
Was told by my local camera buff here, noise filtering in software can means lost sharpness.
Testing the V2 at night, there is zero noise with the standard settings.
Is there a way to turn that off in the blob?
Do the raw pics get processed?
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Gavinmc42
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Tue May 03, 2016 4:21 am

Found this on Quora
https://www.quora.com/Why-is-an-Iphone- ... nd-Samsung
Mostly, the camera sensor in iPhone (and many other smartphones) are made by Sony (Exmor).

There is more than the camera sensor when it comes to the quality of the photos. For example, the same camera sensor in two phones can give different types of photos. Like, in Mi4i and Yureka+, there are same camera sensor. However, mostly Mi4i have more noise-less and colorful photos while Yureka Plus have more detailed photos (believe me, MIUI's denoise feature is to be blammed here & MIUI is little better in color saturation resulting better colors than usual).
The V1 was an off the shelf module so tuning was known?
V2 custom module? Tuning still needs tweaking?

Maybe Sony won't rebuild the earthquake hit plant and we get a new 12Mp V3?
RP is not a Samsung, Sony or Apple, part of the fun is learning this stuff for ourselves.

If anyone can reverse engineer the blob and tuning, expect offers from the above:)
I'm dancing on Rainbows.
Raspberries are not Apples or Oranges

peteforde
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Tue May 03, 2016 5:31 am

So here's a weird one: an acquaintance in China who is attempting what is a typically routine chore of creating a 100% compatible camera board with CS/M12 mount is suggesting that Pi Foundation has integrated what he describes as a "crypto chip" on the new camera, presumably to thwart his efforts at creating a specialty after-market version for those of us who require real optics for our projects.

I admit that I didn't see this one coming. I've always equated the Pi ecosystem to what open source success looks like, even with much of the technology under serious lock and key thanks to IP concerns from Broadcom. I don't have much in the way of details but certainly the suggestion of Pi Foundation doing something to actively discourage 3rd party innovation is new - and I admit that I don't like it.

Given the optical quality most folks are reporting, it would seem like 3rd party options with better optics would be a boon to the ecosystem. It's a shame.

Does anyone here have any additional information?

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Gavinmc42
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Tue May 03, 2016 6:15 am

Crypto chip? conspiracy nuts apply?

Just noticed on Sony's 219 webpage it does lens shading correction with 4 independent colours.
http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/new_ ... 219_e.html
Older parts have a bit more info, RGBW, a white pixel instead of a second green?
http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/201208/12-107E/

A white pixel, ie no colour filter would be better for low light.
But would play havoc for colour correction if someone expects the standard RGGB Bayer.

Does this explain the difference in Koepi's outside shots?
My outside shots also have less green in the V2's daytime, my night shots seem to be red with yellow flood lights.
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Raspberries are not Apples or Oranges

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jbeale
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Tue May 03, 2016 6:16 am

I have bought many genuine RPi v1.x cameras, and many aftermarket M12 types as well; each has their purpose. In-camera crypto sounds strange, but certainly in keeping with Sony, if not RPi. If that truly is the case, one presumes further information would not be forthcoming.

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Gavinmc42
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Tue May 03, 2016 7:31 am

But we will have fun trying to find out:)
More parts on the back of the PCB? What do they all do?
Voltage regs plus?

Seem to remember on the V1 RPI said they used the Broadcom chip to do the colour processing not the camera chip?
For the V2 ditto? Naush Patuck should know.
The 219 is supposed to do RGBW to bayer on the camera, was this skipped?
What is the colour correction matrix for RGBW.
Would it need to be a 4x3 matrix not a 3x3?

Kodak RGBW patent
https://www.google.com.au/patents/US8264576
A Bayer filter uses only ⅓ (˜0.33) of color spectrum energy. An RGBW filter uses 4/6 (˜0.67) of energy, where ½ comes from white cells and ⅙ from RGB cells.
Huh? Looking forward to RPI's input, my brain hurts.
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Raspberries are not Apples or Oranges

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Mettauk
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Tue May 03, 2016 8:44 am

I now have 3 NoIR and one standard V2 and although colour is improved the focus at infinity is very uneven which is a real shame. Also NoIR does not seem any better in low light which is also a shame even though frame rate does seem improved, this seems contradictory!

Will wait a week and if no news from Pi Towers/Pi Trading will be returning all 4 for refund.
As humans we have been the same for a very very long time, technology changes how we do... not who we are as people.

naushir
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Tue May 03, 2016 9:00 am

All the colour processing is handled by the Broadcom chip, just like the v1 camera. I do not recall any functionality for RGBW->Bayer conversions on chip, do you have any source for this?
Gavinmc42 wrote: Seem to remember on the V1 RPI said they used the Broadcom chip to do the colour processing not the camera chip?
For the V2 ditto? Naush Patuck should know.
The 219 is supposed to do RGBW to bayer on the camera, was this skipped?
What is the colour correction matrix for RGBW.
Would it need to be a 4x3 matrix not a 3x3?

ZooC0d3
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Tue May 03, 2016 9:48 am

'Tis a shame to read about all these issues with the V2 cam.. I was gonna fire off an order for one or two, but I think I'll hold back a while and see what develops (no photography pun intended.)

On the upside, a few weeks ago I felt a bit miffed for buying my first ever pi cam (v1.3) in the last weeks of it's life cycle. At the moment, I actually feel quite lucky that my first pi cam experience wasn't tainted by these teething problems with the new model.

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