The MagPi Magazine www.themagpi.com

[JoeDaStudd]

I quickly read thought it and was pleasantly surprised.
Its well laid out, hits the target markets (nice child friendly areas for coding) and has some nice content.

I love how the code isn't downloadable. When you type something yourself it feels that bit more rewarding, plus you soon learn to troubleshoot (especially your spelling mistakes).

[Jaseman]

Here's another mirror for the PDF download, in case anybody has trouble with getting it from Skydrive or Dropbox:

goo.gl/T6V7C

Though judging by the analytics for the download URL on the website:

356 people have clicked on the skydrive link which is on The MagPi website in the last 18 hours

UK: 191

USA: 50

Canada: 8

A handful from Spain, France, Italy and Germany and 16 Australians.

The PDF format is very common.  Many Governments and organisations use it for standard documents and forms.  If you can't open PDF files using your computer or device, all I can suggest is - Ask a friend to print it for you, or visit your local library.

What we heard was that people wanted a PDF magazine.  There are plenty of websites already.  We have deliberately set out not to make it easy to copy and paste the python code, because we want people to type it in.

As to the magazine being 'primitive' - We are trying to cater for beginners - especially for the first issue.  We don't want to scare people away with too much technical lingo, or make assumptions that they might 'already know' this information.

[Jaseman]

Jaseman said:


You can email us: editor@themagpi.com or emailthemapgi@gmail.com



Oops that should have been emailthemagpi@gmail.com - not the map guy!

[jamesh]

GordonH said:


What a terrible site. Sorry.

I'm sure the content is fine, but after fighting with your website, I gave up.

I get a flash panel and when I enable that (flashblocker in-place), I get more flash and an option to click a link to download a PDF file - which takes me to a Microsoft site (!!!) then it refuses to open and suggests I get Adobe Flash reader (!!!) When I finally manage to get the PDF and read it in xpdf, it's OK, but rather primitive.

When I enable flash, I get the most stupid of stupid page flipping skeuomorph of a "book". It's not a book, it's a computer monitor. If I want to turn pages, I'll buy a dead tree version. I want continuous scroll (with fast wind through to V) because that's what a web page is.

Try looking at other "magazine" style websites and see how they work - e.g. Wired, The Register, Make, etc. They're fast, easy to navigate and "just work" without having to go through hoops and loops just to make them display.

And do yourselves a HUGE favour and do it in HTML only. Just plain old HTML. With pictures. (and a nice stylesheet) I'm really sure it would take you much less time to put together too, it would let us copy & paste (or download) things like program listings and make it far easier to navigate.

Gordon


Sorry Gordon, can you keep it civil please? Starting a post with the above, I think, i overly aggressive. There are much better ways to put forward your thoughts.

Not sure why you are so vitriolic tbh, I thought it looked great (and it worked first time for me) I liked the magazine format (it is, you  know, a magazine, albeit a computer based one). I don't think your comparisons against the Register etc are apples to apples either. Different concepts - ElReg isn't a 'magazine' in my book.

[gordon@drogon.net]

JamesH said:


Sorry Gordon, can you keep it civil please? Starting a post with the above, I think, i overly aggressive. There are much better ways to put forward your thoughts.


That was civil, and it's still a terrible site. If I wasn't being civil, I'd have made it much more clearer. (Or has the word terrible now become a swear word?) Or are people just afraid of criticism?

I can't fault the guys for making the effort, (and I'm not criticising the magazine content at all), but I really do feel that keeping the format simple and not relying on too much technology is a better way forward. PDFs and silly flash-based page turns. No thanks. Just give me nice easy to read web pages. That way you have universal accessibility - more so to people who're dyslexic (like me) and visually impaired. Also those viewing it (or trying to view it) on a mobile device. Mobiles & Pads are king these days - if its not going to be viewable on a pad of some sort, then you'll lose a lot of audience.

So PDFs - Fine, but PDFs do not "flow" - you can't change their width and have the text flow to fit the width, so on a mobile device/pad it's going to involve a lot of screen scrolling. You can make text flow to fit width trivially in HTML. Sure they can be printed, but who does that?


Not sure why you are so vitriolic tbh, I thought it looked great (and it worked first time for me) I liked the magazine format (it is, you  know, a magazine, albeit a computer based one). I don't think your comparisons against the Register etc are apples to apples either. Different concepts - ElReg isn't a 'magazine' in my book.


It's not votriol, it's frustration.
I can make it "work for me", but it's an effort. Your probably using a Microsoft PC. I'm using Debian Linux. (and have been using it for the past 18 years) to find a site talking about a Linux system then taking me to a Microsoft site which asks that I install Adobe is frankly a huge insult.

And ok - The Register isn't a "magazine" in that sense, but the other 2 I mentioned? Wired Magazine, Make Magazine, They are. Along with (lets see), Observer Magazine

Diver Magazine , Elektor Magazine and millions of others. These magazine websites all "just work". I don't need flash, I don't need to download anything, and they don't pollute my Linux environment with Microsoft or Adobe stuff.

Gordon

[jamesh]

Let me rephrase that – please more MORE civil than you think you are being. (Although I seriously doubt your definition of civil given your first line)

Let me give you an example. You have just put a lot of effort in to something. And one of the first comments you get is 'That is terrible'.  How would you feel? Put yourself in the shoes of the people who have just put in a lot of effort, and then think about what you write. I have no disagreement with the content of your comment – you are entitled to think whatever you like – just the presentation. There are ways and means. You first line isn't one of them.

Edit:

You could have put all of your comments in to 4 lines...none of which insult the originators of the Magazine.

"Sorry, but Flash seem an odd choice given the Linux basis of the Pi as it's is flackey on my Debian box"

"Perhaps using the format of Wired, Or the register would make for a better experience"

"PDF have problems with word flow on mobile devices"

"Perhaps forgoing the flash page turns and sticking with plain HTML would give a better and broader appeal"

[meltwater]

Last time I looked, my paper magazine didn"t "reflow".  As stated before, if you don"t like flip pages, then don"t view it there, but for other"s that format is what they want to see.

The point I will take from your post however, is I will look into how compatible it is for software which visually impaired people do use (readers etc).  If anyone already knows this already then please let us know.

As far as I know, I think it works on an iPad, but again, please let me know otherwise.  It works fine on my android phone and tablet too.  PDF is a bit of a standard, even if you don"t like it personally.  However if you know of a suitable format (which is not a webpage) which the pdf can be converted to, then we will happily provide that too (if others find it useful) i.e. CBR file perhaps?

I'll look into the reflow problems and how it views on a small screen, hopefully since we use columns it may not be such a big problem.

You can just talk to us normally, without the tone of a rant.  I am fairly sure, I have not personally done any harm to you or caused you any discomfort.

[rurwin]

Well at least it isn't as bad as Computer Weekly. With that you have to click to zoom in after every page turn and then it goes so big, and the font is so small, that you have to drag the paper around.

It's a great start; one hell of a lot better than I could have done. So first of all, well done.

Secondly, I agree with Gordon. Unless you are so keen on having a dead tree version of the magazine, it is a terrible format. Yes it looks fantastic, and it must have been a great feeling to turn the pages of your own magazine for the first time, but it doesn't work on the web. Can it be read on the RaspPi? It certainly cannot be easily read on phones. And those two are where most kids will be reading it (one hopes.)

I'm told there is a rule of thumb put about in creative writing classes that needs to be more widely applied: murder your children — that feature of which you are especially proud is the feature that you need to cut.

Thirdly I think you have a bit of confusion about where the magazine is aimed. The format says it's for kids, but some of the content and format says it's for us oldsters. For example I bet you can't find anyone in school now who recognises music-ruled tractor-fed paper. But these are minor problems that can and probably will be ironed out in future issues.

[Jaseman]

Ultimately the MagPi is a downloadable / printable PDF magazine for the Raspberry Pi community.

Hosting it on issuu or a flash website or anywhere else is simply an optional extra.

To those that find Flash websites and PDF documents insulting, offensive and frustrating, may I suggest one of the following options:

1.  Re-host the PDF file yourselves on a non-flash website

2.  Join the MagPi team and work on re-creating the document in alternative formats - HTML / Plain Text - or whatever format does not make your blood boil - There's no copyright on the content.

3.  Just don't read it!

We would like to appeal to a wide range of viewers - young and old.  We understand that some of the younger readers won't remember 8-bit computers or fanfold paper, but there are also readers that will.

[meltwater]

rurwin said:


Well at least it isn"t as bad as Computer Weekly. With that you have to click to zoom in after every page turn and then it goes so big, and the font is so small, that you have to drag the paper around.

It"s a great start; one hell of a lot better than I could have done. So first of all, well done.

Secondly, I agree with Gordon. Unless you are so keen on having a dead tree version of the magazine, it is a terrible format. Yes it looks fantastic, and it must have been a great feeling to turn the pages of your own magazine for the first time, but it doesn"t work on the web. Can it be read on the RaspPi? It certainly cannot be easily read on phones. And those two are where most kids will be reading it (one hopes.)

I"m told there is a rule of thumb put about in creative writing classes that needs to be more widely applied: murder your children — that feature of which you are especially proud is the feature that you need to cut.

Thirdly I think you have a bit of confusion about where the magazine is aimed. The format says it"s for kids, but some of the content and format says it"s for us oldsters. For example I bet you can"t find anyone in school now who recognises music-ruled tractor-fed paper. But these are minor problems that can and probably will be ironed out in future issues.


The format…well we can work on this, we did look at a few magazine formats and several online mags and apps (there was long discussions on the forums about this too).  For instance a good example was the linux "Circle Magazine".  I personally liked how HP did their App Catalogue mag for the touchpad, but that also has issues with being work intensive and probably wouldn"t suit the needs above anyway.  Viewing through "Issuu" is not the only way it can be viewed, but for browsing from a tablet it isn"t a bad experience (if you like that sort of thing), it is just one way to view the pdf file.

I wouldn"t worry about the flippy page thing, that is totally optional, take it or leave it.  We can look at other ways to present it.  At the moment, the "Make" site isn"t playing nicely with my browser…although I"ve not messaged them yet to tell them.

Target…hard to say specifically who our target is since the community as a whole is a very wide range of people.  Clearly, as it was the first edition, it is aimed at beginners, young and old.  As we move on to other issues, there will probably be a greater range of skill levels catered for, and hopefully we can also introduce some younger writers who can write articles suited for younger readers.  As you say, as the mag matures, it will develop further, and it will fully depend on who gets involves and who contributes to it.

Update:

Currently looking at the example magazines given, to try to work out what it is you are after, since most appear to use pdf, and some even offer flip mags (http://www.elektor.com/uploads.....index.html), a lot also require downloads of their own apps for phones and tablets (many only support ipad or ereaders).  The html view of the site, is of a basic blog/wordpress layout (that is not the purpose of the project).  I"ll not go into the advertising/paid subscription aspects…

I guess, if we had the person-power, the pdf could also be represented within the site as a html version too, which I guess is what you are getting at, but I would say that would be secondary to creating a magazine format.  It isn't something which we will rule out, but we'd need someone to actually do it.

Regarding viewing pdf...is there a problem with using http://trac.emma-soft.com/epdfview/ in linux?  I just booted RacyPy and it worked right off the bat.  I've no idea if there is pdf support in the RPi distros, but since the User Guides etc are also in pdf format, I guess we will hope there is.

[gordon@drogon.net]

Jaseman said:


Ultimately the MagPi is a downloadable / printable PDF magazine for the Raspberry Pi community.


But who downloads and prints PDFs these days? How often do you get emails with the bottom liner along the lines of "Consider the environment - do you need to print this?" I don't want to print it out, then read it on the train, I want it on my mobile device to scan through, bookmark, index, search, and so on. I don't want it printed to end up buried in soft peat for millennia.


Hosting it on issuu or a flash website or anywhere else is simply an optional extra.


I'm actually really surprised that anyone is using flash for new projects these days. How long has it been since Apple dumped it?


To those that find Flash websites and PDF documents insulting, offensive and frustrating, may I suggest one of the following options:


The offence was to do with Linux - or rather not Linux. Here we are, embracing an open-source technology, yet reliant on MS/Adobe for content? So maybe that wasn't your intention, but then reading comments like "the site is getting a hammering, here is another mirror" doesn't help either. However, that's the bane of free web site hosting. You get what you pay for. £15 a month will get you excellent UK based web hosting with no banner ads, nothing. (actually that'll get you your own VPS running Linux - probably more than adequate for your needs)


1.  Re-host the PDF file yourselves on a non-flash website


That's not quite the point - at least not my point (and I run a hosting company too, so if I wanted to host it, I could) It's the issue of accessibility. Firstly, the website is not accessible on the very machine your talking about. The midori browser has no flash... The format - PDF is fine as a printed book format (and I use it when writing documents, manuals, etc.) but it's just not right for reading online. It's old fashioned and technology has advanced. "Magazine Format" no-longer means reading it from end to end - it's articles, headlined, searchable and indexed and if I want to fast wind through to V then there ought to be a button. And that doesn't mean it's "blog" format either, but there's nothing wrong with that. All you need to do is save up the submissions then unleash them once a month/fortnight, etc.


2.  Join the MagPi team and work on re-creating the document in alternative formats - HTML / Plain Text - or whatever format does not make your blood boil - There's no copyright on the content.


Sadly, I'm a programmer and not a good designer. Just look at my own website...


3.  Just don't read it!


Your missing the point - I have to to to great lengths before I can even try to read it. The content may well be world-class (whatever that is), but if it's not accessible, then what's the point?


We would like to appeal to a wide range of viewers - young and old.  We understand that some of the younger readers won't remember 8-bit computers or fanfold paper, but there are also readers that will.


That's content. I'm talking about delivery. That's my key issue. If it's quick and easy to read then it will appeal to the masses rather than the few.

Gordon

[meltwater]

GordonH said:


Jaseman said:


Ultimately the MagPi is a downloadable / printable PDF magazine for the Raspberry Pi community.


But who downloads and prints PDFs these days? How often do you get emails with the bottom liner along the lines of "Consider the environment – do you need to print this?" I don't want to print it out, then read it on the train, I want it on my mobile device to scan through, bookmark, index, search, and so on. I don't want it printed to end up buried in soft peat for millennia.


Hosting it on issuu or a flash website or anywhere else is simply an optional extra.


I'm actually really surprised that anyone is using flash for new projects these days. How long has it been since Apple dumped it?


To those that find Flash websites and PDF documents insulting, offensive and frustrating, may I suggest one of the following options:


The offence was to do with Linux – or rather not Linux. Here we are, embracing an open-source technology, yet reliant on MS/Adobe for content? So maybe that wasn't your intention, but then reading comments like "the site is getting a hammering, here is another mirror" doesn't help either. However, that's the bane of free web site hosting. You get what you pay for. £15 a month will get you excellent UK based web hosting with no banner ads, nothing. (actually that'll get you your own VPS running Linux – probably more than adequate for your needs)


1.  Re-host the PDF file yourselves on a non-flash website


That's not quite the point – at least not my point (and I run a hosting company too, so if I wanted to host it, I could) It's the issue of accessibility. Firstly, the website is not accessible on the very machine your talking about. The midori browser has no flash… The format – PDF is fine as a printed book format (and I use it when writing documents, manuals, etc.) but it's just not right for reading online. It's old fashioned and technology has advanced. "Magazine Format" no-longer means reading it from end to end – it's articles, headlined, searchable and indexed and if I want to fast wind through to V then there ought to be a button. And that doesn't mean it's "blog" format either, but there's nothing wrong with that. All you need to do is save up the submissions then unleash them once a month/fortnight, etc.


2.  Join the MagPi team and work on re-creating the document in alternative formats – HTML / Plain Text – or whatever format does not make your blood boil – There's no copyright on the content.


Sadly, I'm a programmer and not a good designer. Just look at my own website…


3.  Just don't read it!


Your missing the point – I have to to to great lengths before I can even try to read it. The content may well be world-class (whatever that is), but if it's not accessible, then what's the point?


We would like to appeal to a wide range of viewers – young and old.  We understand that some of the younger readers won't remember 8-bit computers or fanfold paper, but there are also readers that will.


That's content. I'm talking about delivery. That's my key issue. If it's quick and easy to read then it will appeal to the masses rather than the few.

Gordon


To continue this discussion (which thankfully it is starting to, rather than a rant, so thanks for adjusting).

There are a number of things which you may be confused about.

1) The intention is not to create a wordpress blog site.

2) It is a free magazine, so we can't pay for hosting unless we have it donated to us.  (Donations are always welcome…and we are thankful for our domain name donation for example).

3) Content is being discussed in relation to other posts, so don't worry about that.

4) We can agree, the steps to get to the PDF on the main site can be improved for non-flash based users.  That is something we did touch on previously, you need experience to know what works and what doesn't, flash may have been a poor choice, but it is something which we will change to work with the Raspberry Pi when we can test it.

Is your issue with PDF in particular, or that it is a fixed page by page format in general?  Love it or hate it, PDF is a common format, even the datasheets are in it.

[Jaseman]

You'll be glad to know that I haven't printed a single sheet of paper myself, but people do find it useful - especially for the tutorials - like building the Debian VM.  Not everybody has multi-monitor setups.  I'm sure they recycle - which is something at least.  Then you can get into the power consumption of monitors question - but anyway the whole 'save the planet' issue aside....

I also raised 'concern' when I heard the website was going to contain flash - but I'm not the owner of the website, and since you can get the magazine without going there, I didn't see any harm in it.

I'm mainly interested in creating the content, and we are happy for anyone to get involved with the delivery side of things.

If you are not going to get involved on either the content side or the delivery, then you'll just have to live with what the volunteers come up with.

Your comments are helpful - but as James said, the way in which you make them distracts the focus from whatever point you were trying to convey.

If you say to someone 'Your product is crap!' and then go on to list the reasons why and how it could be done better - I'm afraid the reader tends not to notice any of the valid points you may have had.

[jamesh]

My only request would be a Kindle Kind version - PDF's don't work so well on the Kindle in my experience. EPub? I can never remember the format.

[Jaseman]

Maybe it should be in the form of a Python program:

print("The MagPi")

print()

print("CONTENTS")

I definately think that future versions will be made using Raspberry Pi's

[meltwater]

Ok, I've had chance to try the site without flash enable via an android tablet.

1. Yep the site needs alternatives to flash if flash is not available.  We've covered that.

2. Issuu does work, when you enable flash, but not too well within the browser (the app does help a little with it but still not perfect).  I'll try out the issuu app on the tablet (it worked fairly well on phone, although probably needs a few adjustments for total perfection.

3. The pdf link going to skydrive (that's the microsoft bit), doesn't seem to download correctly on it (at least on the browser on the tablet).  The other link seems to work fine and once you have a pdf reader (of whatever form it takes) it works.

All in all, not a huge disaster, but something we can fix.  Just not sure why it required quite the reaction from some though.

As for kindle...it's on my list to test, so I will do and hopefully I can generate a friendly version if needed.

[rurwin]

meltwater said:


GordonH said:


Jaseman said:


We would like to appeal to a wide range of viewers – young and old.  We understand that some of the younger readers won"t remember 8-bit computers or fanfold paper, but there are also readers that will.


That"s content. I"m talking about delivery.



That was an answer to one of my points.


Is your issue with PDF in particular, or that it is a fixed page by page format in general?  Love it or hate it, PDF is a common format, even the datasheets are in it.


Yes, PDF is common, yes I could point to a huge number of things that were in it. But the Raspberry Pi was developed specifically for kids that do not have access to any other computer. So if they are going to read your magazine they are going to do it on either a RaspPi or a mobile phone. The RaspPi does not do flash, and the phone doesn't do PDF (well). (A 10Mbit download may be a little tiresome on a phone, but 4G will probably sort that out.)

It would be exciting to see you produce the magazine in pure HTML with style-sheets to produce paginated, web or ultra-accessible formats. That would be easier if there were not so many styles and background images, but something should be possible.

[meltwater]

Update: Just tried Issuu again on the tablet and when it is set to full screen it works nicely.

Yep I think we covered the RPi and flash issue.  PDF is readable on a RPi I guess?

I would agree that viewing on a phone isn't perfect, we are yet to find the perfect solution to it. Although have you tried viewing it through the Issuu android app?

I think basically there isn't a one size fits all here, and we have only just started in finding the best ways to achieve it.  Since we don't have a professional web designer on-board the team, that side of it has probably suffered.  The request for help has been out there and the site has been active for a good while.

Also do not forget that not all RPi's will be connected live to the internet and it is often the same with peoples phones (and I would hope a lot of younger kids phones too) so an all in one download is also a good thing to have.

If someone would like to build some webpages out of the magazine, then we would be more than happy for them to do so, and help where we can.  We will gladly link to it too.

[jamesh]

Just though that I would add that I just tried the full version, Flash and all, on my Ubuntu box, which believe is a popular beat combo Linux version, and it works fine.

[rubikwizard]

Thanks for a great first issue. Personally I liked the PDF version and I printed out and stapled together a few copies and left them around the staffroom of the school I work at. They got a lot of interest. Keep up the great work!

[fastkat]

I was surprised to hear moans and groans about something that people have put their time and effort into for free.

I view this on an iPhone and have no issues with viewing it. I probably will print it out to read as and when I want to. I don"t always want to read from my fone or PC.

Well done MagPi team.

[bredman]

fastkat said:


I was surprised to hear moans and groans about something that people have put their time and effort into for free.


I think the MagPi team got off really lightly. If they had put in serious effort they might have got some real hate mail.

In this forum, the amount of hatred seems to be directly proportional to the amount of voluntary effort that people put in.

[meltwater]

JamesH said:


Just though that I would add that I just tried the full version, Flash and all, on my Ubuntu box, which believe is a popular beat combo Linux version, and it works fine.


rubikwizard said:


Thanks for a great first issue. Personally I liked the PDF version and I printed out and stapled together a few copies and left them around the staffroom of the school I work at. They got a lot of interest. Keep up the great work!


fastkat said:


I was surprised to hear moans and groans about something that people have put their time and effort into for free.

I view this on an iPhone and have no issues with viewing it. I probably will print it out to read as and when I want to. I don"t always want to read from my fone or PC.

Well done MagPi team.


Excellent to hear that people are enjoying it!

rubikwizard that is superb, hopefully it generated some interesting conversations about the computers everyone had when they were younger.

fastkat that unfortunately is the way it is sometimes.  Personally I prefer to have a go and do what I can to help people out where and if I can.  Perhaps the non-flash version can be subscription only...  Glad to hear you were able to view it on your iPhone, was that PDF or through issuu, or both?

JamesH I just tried it on the kindle...PDF most of it is readable (although as you can imagine quite small).  There are a few pages where the backgrounds mean the contrast is a little low so can be hard to read at speed.  Overall though, you could read it if you wanted to.  [I'm not a kindle user, does the standard kindle support zoom on pdf's or not?].  Converting directly to mobi (epub isn't supported) the converter I used got confused about the columns (so text was mixed up), otherwise it would be a lot easier to read (although the images get placed in different order too), so a mobi version may be a little difficult to produce at the moment.

[FullXion]

I find it absolutely stupid that someone has decided to bash the website. The fact of the matter is that right now, it would be better, much, much better, for the focus to be placed on the magazine as opposed to making a website suitable for one  seemingly selfish person's needs. The Raspberry Pi's in the wild right now are not the final, kid-freindly release, and so they will likely not be used in conjunction with the magazine's website. The content of the magazine matters most right now.

You have done something amazing here. I'm 15 and I must say I buy magazines for a fiver with less engrossing content than this. I found every article interesting, and after showing my freinds they too had a great read. One of them said to me 'Isn't this a bit short for a magazine? I'd buy it for 2 pounds, no more than that.' and I had to explain it was free and community driven

My only complaint is the obvious one, namely there being too little content to really be excitable about, that being said i am fully aware this is only the beginning, and I am confident that as long as there is dedicated members of the RasPi community like yourselves there will be little confusion among the novice programmers the raspberry pi hopes to draw in.

I would offer my assistance with the magazine by producing an article, but unfortunately I can't think of much this is missing out on in terms of topics That being said, I am learning python 3 and am generally quite well versed when it comes to hardware and software, so if you need any help I'd be happy to provide.

Good luck and I sincerely hope this proect reaches it's full potential

[ashleigh.stone@doctors.org.uk]

Thank you to all comments received so far.  Each one is being considered and where possible changes will be made.

As the project is a magazine and not a website I feel that comments would be best directed towards that for now.  However, there were two reasons why a flash site was created:

1) It was quick and easy

2) Children are used to a flashy interface and, therefore in order to gain a greater audience and keep them engaged and not bored with just text, it was thought that for now, it would grab their attention better.

The current site is only a signpost directing people to the magazine and can be easily changed.  We are of course a community project, and if someone would like to get on board and help work a site that would be more accessible then that would be welcomed.

Thanks everyone