mindwave
Posts: 36
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Contact: Website

BOOTING FROM SSD OR USB resolve the SD Corruptions?

Wed Jun 17, 2020 1:49 am

NOw I know that youre supposed to shut donw your pC properly ALWAYS
and living in the lihtening capoital of the USA sometimes thats not always up to me
However seeing all this chatte about being able to boot from SSD and USB sticks as opposed to sd cards leaves mewondering one thing?

Is this any safer than booting from micro sd cards?

It seems that everytime I start to experiment with HW or SW or both, I find myself in a situation where the PI gets locked up, ok hazard of the business I get it.

But it also seems that abou every 3rd time I have to FORCE the thing down i find myself unable to boot from that card.
Now im sure there are plety of |easy| resolutions and things like that, but I spent YEARS working from Linux USB sticks demonstrating to other folks how they could run and learn linux on THEIR PCs and not harm anything.

and RARELYif ever did I ave to rewrite the USB key.

SO if I use a bootable SSD in my DIY tablet/laptop wil it be more stabl;e durnig emergenc power downs?
also a lot of chatter on a 64 bit version of raspbian any ntruth?

I use Manjaro on my PBP and like it a lot, just not readyh to move ALL my RASPI projects that way yet.

Thanks

J

fruitoftheloom
Posts: 24038
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:40 pm
Location: Delightful Dorset

Re: BOOTING FROM SSD OR USB resolve the SD Corruptions?

Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:54 am

mindwave wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 1:49 am
NOw I know that youre supposed to shut donw your pC properly ALWAYS
and living in the lihtening capoital of the USA sometimes thats not always up to me
However seeing all this chatte about being able to boot from SSD and USB sticks as opposed to sd cards leaves mewondering one thing?

Is this any safer than booting from micro sd cards?

It seems that everytime I start to experiment with HW or SW or both, I find myself in a situation where the PI gets locked up, ok hazard of the business I get it.

But it also seems that abou every 3rd time I have to FORCE the thing down i find myself unable to boot from that card.
Now im sure there are plety of |easy| resolutions and things like that, but I spent YEARS working from Linux USB sticks demonstrating to other folks how they could run and learn linux on THEIR PCs and not harm anything.

and RARELYif ever did I ave to rewrite the USB key.

SO if I use a bootable SSD in my DIY tablet/laptop wil it be more stabl;e durnig emergenc power downs?
also a lot of chatter on a 64 bit version of raspbian any ntruth?

I use Manjaro on my PBP and like it a lot, just not readyh to move ALL my RASPI projects that way yet.

Thanks

J

Raspbian Buster is ARMHF ARM32 and there will never be an ARM64 version...

...hence the reason it is now called Raspberry Pi OS and yes an ARM64 version based off Debian ARM64 is in Beta Testing, see:

viewtopic.php?f=63&t=275372


Whenever you pull the plug it can corrupt data and a USB MSD is just as prone as a SD Card. Suggest you investigate using an UPS !
Thinking outside the box is better than burying your head in the sand...

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rpdom
Posts: 17548
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 5:17 am
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK

Re: BOOTING FROM SSD OR USB resolve the SD Corruptions?

Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:58 am

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:54 am
Whenever you pull the plug it can corrupt data and a USB MSD is just as prone as a SD Card.
I don't think that is strictly true. Yes, there will be file system corruption, but hard disks and SSDs usually have some protection against sudden power off so they can finish writing the contents of their buffers, and in the case of a hard disk, park the head safely, when power fails. I believe they both use capacitors to store some power for the write stage, and the hard disks can use the disk motor as a generator to generate enough power for a moment to move the heads safely away from the disk.
Unreadable squiggle

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HawaiianPi
Posts: 5967
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:53 am
Location: Aloha, Oregon USA

Re: BOOTING FROM SSD OR USB resolve the SD Corruptions?

Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:14 am

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:54 am
Whenever you pull the plug it can corrupt data and a USB MSD is just as prone as a SD Card. Suggest you investigate using an UPS !
Yup, this ^

Better SSD models have some protection against sudden power loss, but even that is not 100% effective. The best protection is not to have the power fail unexpectedly (UPS). And if that's unavoidable, a good backup system (that you actually use) will reduce data loss and get you back up and running more easily.

When the system seems like its frozen it will often still respond to the magic SysRq keys, and that is a cleaner way of shutting down or rebooting than yanking the power. You can google it for an explanation, but to initiate a reboot on a frozen system you hold the ALT + SysRq (Print Screen) keys, and hit the following keys in order, with a few seconds delay between them.

REISUB (CAPS used for clarity, but not required)

Again, google will tell what those really do, but an easy mnemonic to remember the keys is, Reboot Even If System Utterly Broken

If you substitute an o in place of the b at the end the system will turn off instead of rebooting.

Of course this only helps with a system that has a keyboard. There are also GPIO pins or the RUN header you can trigger (with appropriate system preparation). And finally, you can run a read-only OS like TinyCore Linux, which runs entirely from RAM, so each new boot is like a fresh install. Or you can try the Overlay File System on Raspbian.
My mind is like a browser. 27 tabs are open, 9 aren't responding,
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fruitoftheloom
Posts: 24038
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:40 pm
Location: Delightful Dorset

Re: BOOTING FROM SSD OR USB resolve the SD Corruptions?

Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:21 am

rpdom wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:58 am
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:54 am
Whenever you pull the plug it can corrupt data and a USB MSD is just as prone as a SD Card.
I don't think that is strictly true. Yes, there will be file system corruption, but hard disks and SSDs usually have some protection against sudden power off so they can finish writing the contents of their buffers, and in the case of a hard disk, park the head safely, when power fails. I believe they both use capacitors to store some power for the write stage, and the hard disks can use the disk motor as a generator to generate enough power for a moment to move the heads safely away from the disk.

I would rather not take the chance, but each to his own....
Thinking outside the box is better than burying your head in the sand...

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rpdom
Posts: 17548
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 5:17 am
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK

Re: BOOTING FROM SSD OR USB resolve the SD Corruptions?

Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:28 am

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:21 am
rpdom wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:58 am
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:54 am
Whenever you pull the plug it can corrupt data and a USB MSD is just as prone as a SD Card.
I don't think that is strictly true. Yes, there will be file system corruption, but hard disks and SSDs usually have some protection against sudden power off so they can finish writing the contents of their buffers, and in the case of a hard disk, park the head safely, when power fails. I believe they both use capacitors to store some power for the write stage, and the hard disks can use the disk motor as a generator to generate enough power for a moment to move the heads safely away from the disk.

I would rather not take the chance, but each to his own....
Sometimes you don't get the choice.
Unreadable squiggle

mindwave
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:24 pm
Contact: Website

Re: BOOTING FROM SSD OR USB resolve the SD Corruptions?

Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:11 pm

HawaiianPI (I know Im sure Immisspelled it sorry)

Thats the first time Ive seen that laid out like that, interesting, ad of course as for keyboards go one of the systems I have the biggest issues with has a wireless keyboard, and that seems to be the absolute FIRST thing to stop responding.

You know its interesting, and I know only a billion and one things have changed, but when I was working with Mandriva.DE on their 1st edition of the USB key, the ONLY ones we really had any issues with were the "distribution keys"

Many are too young to recall this but Mandrake, then Mandriva was one of the first lrge distros to try and make a ditribution on a USB key (06'?) and my project was to take THAT to what appeared to be a natural conclusion......

Imagine being able to plug a USB key into your system executing one command hand having a custom image rolled off YOUR desktop.

Everything goes sideways? plug in the key hit reboot and within about 30 minutes depending on HW, you would have your desktop back and your core apps pre installed. During the 1st run you had 1.7GB of your own apps to choose to have reinstalled.

It was glorious
than they wet belly up and everyone went to the wind......

BUT anyway, I used to put them in my pocket and then the washm, and the ONLY keys we had isues with were the ones folks were paying mandriva $24 for that had the initial distro installed live with persistance...everything else was bullet proof,
Thats why when I ot interested in booting of portable platforms aGAIN I was confounded by hohw seemingly fragile the SD cards seemed tto be.

Oh well I was hoping.

thanks\

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HawaiianPi
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Location: Aloha, Oregon USA

Re: BOOTING FROM SSD OR USB resolve the SD Corruptions?

Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:33 pm

mindwave wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:11 pm
I was confounded by how seemingly fragile the SD cards seemed to be.
You know, a lot of people seem to say this, but that hasn't been my experience at all. I've had several Pi computers running from SD cards for years without issue, including a Minecraft SMP server running 24/7 from the same card since 2017.

An SSD should be more reliable than an SD card, since they are designed to be system drives, but operating systems use data caching to improve performance, and nothing can protect data that is cached in system RAM when the power fails.

That being said, on the occasions when I have flipped the wrong switch and powered down a running Pi when I intended to power down an already shut down system, I have not had any trouble. I don't do that often, but I haven't had any failures yet.
My mind is like a browser. 27 tabs are open, 9 aren't responding,
lots of pop-ups...and where is that annoying music coming from?

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