asandford
Posts: 1825
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Location: Ealing

Re: Beginner - Automation of Outside Christmas Lights

Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:23 am

hunty1980 wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:04 am
asandford wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:56 am
Good to hear you got it working, I found the video here
Central heating systems have been done with Node-Red, best start in summer tho'...
Thank you!

Yeah - I've been doing some reading over the past few days about central heating automation. I have quite an old boiler, which runs on oil and not gas. Not sure if the principles are the same, but thought it should only be a case of replacing the Central Heating Programmer for a Raspi + Relay setup and possibly introducing a couple of thermostats around the house!?

Is this something you've had experience of?
Not of central heating as such, but thermal and humidity management of a green house (switching fan heaters/coolers, radiators, de-humidifiers, and next year watering and possibly lighting - nothing illegal just tropical plants )

stevend
Posts: 143
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:28 pm

Re: Beginner - Automation of Outside Christmas Lights

Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:13 pm

hunty1980 wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:04 am
... and possibly introducing a couple of thermostats around the house!?
If you're going to have multiple thermostats, then you also need to be able to control heat input to the area covered by each thermostat individually. Assuming a pumped system with radiators, in the old days this was achieved by dividing the system into zones, with a motorised valve controlling water flow into each zone (usually a simple on/off). Nowadays I'd use one of the many electronic radiator valves, which often allow proportional control, adjusted locally. (I actually use the Honeywell HR20, for which there's some open source software available - look for the openHR20 project).
You also need to be able to turn off the boiler and pump when there's no demand for heat.

hunty1980
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon May 22, 2017 3:25 pm

Re: Beginner - Automation of Outside Christmas Lights

Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:07 pm

Right - seems like you boys are having some fun with all this smart heating , so keen to join the party!! :)

Can you kind people share your setup/wiring diagrams/tips & tricks to get me started!? It's more guidance with regards wiring and hardware setup. I have a rough idea of what I think the setup might look like, but keen to do it right first time.

This is my Honeywell ST6400C Control Panel wiring setup:

Image

Possibly time to start a new topic 'Beginner - Automation of Central Heating'?

Cheers,
G

stevend
Posts: 143
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:28 pm

Re: Beginner - Automation of Outside Christmas Lights

Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:48 pm

That's a very good place to start; I assume its the output of your programmer. I also assume that you have a hot water tank.

You need two mains relays controlled by the Pi (normal caveats with mains wiring apply). The first simply connects between live and terminal 3. When closed, it indicates a desire to produce hot water. There will be a thermostat on the tank which cuts out when the tank is up to temperature.

Terminal 4 on your programmer will go off to a thermostat somewhere, and onwards to a motorised valve or similar. When the time switch is on and the thermostat indicates it's cold, the valve gets power and hot water circulates round the radiators. So assuming you want to do your own temperature control, your second relay needs to switch live to this wire after the thermostat (you might even be able to press that yellow wire which looks as if its spare into service).

You will need to have the programmer disconnected while the Pi is in control - just unplugging it the way you have it in the photo will suffice, provided you protect the live terminals.

It's also a good idea to have a method to fall back to the traditional system if the Pi's out of commission for any reason. I have a big mains-rated rotary switch in a box (complicated by having the boiler, the time switch and the pump+valves in three separate places); there are simpler ways, such as just having the Pi circuitry on a plug and socket, and replacing the programmer once you've unplugged the Pi.

Once you've got those basics in (and working), you can start to get clever. You then start adding temperature sensors (no need for full thermostats; the Pi will do that bit. one-wire bus stuff can work well over moderate distances) and controls for individual radiators (or heating zones). This is where you can do as much or as little as you like in control terms; with the Pi managing demand temperatures and control settings. I'll be interested to hear how you get on with NodeRed for that bit; at present I'm using OpenHab 1.8, which works OK with some limitations, and am uncertain whether to just move to the shiny new version, or try something else.

hunty1980
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon May 22, 2017 3:25 pm

Re: Beginner - Automation of Outside Christmas Lights

Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:49 pm

stevend wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:48 pm
That's a very good place to start; I assume its the output of your programmer. I also assume that you have a hot water tank.

You need two mains relays controlled by the Pi (normal caveats with mains wiring apply). The first simply connects between live and terminal 3. When closed, it indicates a desire to produce hot water. There will be a thermostat on the tank which cuts out when the tank is up to temperature.

Terminal 4 on your programmer will go off to a thermostat somewhere, and onwards to a motorised valve or similar. When the time switch is on and the thermostat indicates it's cold, the valve gets power and hot water circulates round the radiators. So assuming you want to do your own temperature control, your second relay needs to switch live to this wire after the thermostat (you might even be able to press that yellow wire which looks as if its spare into service).
Huge thanks Steven. Yes - I have a hot water cylinder tank next to the boiler in the garage.

I've knocked up a quick wiring diagram to check I've understood what you've suggested. There's a loose yellow wire - any ideas what that is for and whether it needs to be included in the build, or just exclude, as it is now.

Image

stevend
Posts: 143
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:28 pm

Re: Beginner - Automation of Outside Christmas Lights

Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:32 pm

The yellow wire is probably unused at present - you'd have to find the other end to be sure. If the boiler and the tank are in the garage, I'm guessing that's where the pump and motorised valves are, and that there's a junction box there as well. You might need to trace some of the wiring to work out what it does.

Your diagram for the hot water is fine - the Pi will just turn on the relay when you want hot water, and the tank thermostat will cut off the boiler when the water in the tank is up to temperature.

For the heating, it depends whether you have a room thermostat or not. If you do have one, what you've shown might be a useful intermediate step, where the Pi simply replaces the programmer, and the thermostat is still active. Later on, when you have the Pi monitoring temperature, you'll need to bypass that thermostat somehow, and that yellow wire may come in handy then. If you've not got a thermostat, the wiring you've shown is fine.

hunty1980
Posts: 36
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Re: Beginner - Automation of Outside Christmas Lights

Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:42 pm

At the moment, the hot water switch on the current programmer is constantly turned to on - I seemed to remember the plumber that last serviced my boiler told my wife it was more efficient and cost effective to leave it turned to on :?:

Yes - I have thermostat in the hallway. It sits in the coldest place in the house, so keen to bypass this at some point and relocate something that's smarter and interfaces with the Pi.

I found the panel in the garage where the wires all meet - had a quick peek behind it earlier tonight and it looked like a mass of wires - not a pretty sight!! :shock:

stevend
Posts: 143
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:28 pm

Re: Beginner - Automation of Outside Christmas Lights

Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:11 am

hunty1980 wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:42 pm
At the moment, the hot water switch on the current programmer is constantly turned to on - I seemed to remember the plumber that last serviced my boiler told my wife it was more efficient and cost effective to leave it turned to on :?:
Well, maybe - not sure on that one. Might depend on how much hot water you use, and how erratic the demand is, but superficially it seems to me that you'll be spending more money on making up the heat losses 24/7 than if you just make hot water during the period you might need it. The joy of monitoring a system is that I know it typically takes less than half an hour to top up the hot water tank in the morning. (And it did pick up that someone had left a tap running - I happened to be looking at the temperatures for some other reason and something didn't look quite right.... Got to try and automate that. At least if you turn off the hot water at night and someone leaves a tap running last thing, you only run relatively cheap cold water down the drain, rather than costly hot water!)

hunty1980 wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:42 pm
I found the panel in the garage where the wires all meet - had a quick peek behind it earlier tonight and it looked like a mass of wires - not a pretty sight!! :shock:
It might not be as bad as you think; often its simply that plumbers make lousy electricians (and electricians make lousy carpenters.....)
If you trace the wiring, this could be the best place to link in your Pi.
Depending on how the system is plumbed, it could well be that you've actually got a standard Honeywell S-Plan or Y-Plan or something (these diagrams pretty much apply whoever's system it is). Do you have a single 3-pipe valve to direct water to heating and hot water circuits, or do you have two separate valves?

hunty1980
Posts: 36
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Re: Beginner - Automation of Outside Christmas Lights

Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:13 am

stevend wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:11 am
If you trace the wiring, this could be the best place to link in your Pi.
Depending on how the system is plumbed, it could well be that you've actually got a standard Honeywell S-Plan or Y-Plan or something (these diagrams pretty much apply whoever's system it is). Do you have a single 3-pipe valve to direct water to heating and hot water circuits, or do you have two separate valves?
Morning Steven - I've had another look at the wiring - there seems to be a loose yellow wire there. However, I don't want to assume the other end leads to the programmer in my utility room, as there's also another yellow wired in. How would I safely trace this wire to ensure the other end is the loose wire behind the programmer in the utility room?

Image

There's currently 5 leads coming into the junction box -

1. One white lead from the Oil Central Heating Boiler
2. One white lead from the Water Cylinder (Named Indirect Thermal Control)
3. One white lead from a redish/brown device - which I believe is the pump
4. Two black lead from into two separate silver metal boxes - see image below

There's also an isolating switch and frost stat - and I'm assuming the thermostat will wire in the junction box somewhere.

Here's some images to help...

https://imgur.com/a/Q4Ij8

stevend
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Re: Beginner - Automation of Outside Christmas Lights

Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:00 am

Those images definitely help (and its not as bad as your comments implied; looks a relatively tidy installation compared to some!):
1. One white lead from the Oil Central Heating Boiler
I can't see for sure, but its maybe got more than three cores. If so, its probably permanent live, neutral and earth, then a switched live which is energised when you want the boiler to heat. (I've got a gas boiler, but I can't imagine oil boilers are much different). If its only three cores, then most likely you just apply mains when you want heat. Some boilers also control the pump, so that it can be left running for a short time after the heat turns off - prevents hot spots in the boiler.

2. One white lead from the Water Cylinder (Named Indirect Thermal Control)
This will be a simple mechanical thermostat, which closes the hot water valve when the tank water is up to temperature

3. One white lead from a redish/brown device - which I believe is the pump
Yes, its the pump - see comment in next section.

4. Two black lead from into two separate silver metal boxes - see image below
These are the two valves which control the water circulating to the tank and the heating; you apply a live to open the valve, and they're spring loaded so close when power goes. This is why you've probably got a bypass loop (controlled by the black knob to the right of the immersion heater on the tank, I think, although some of the pipework to it looks a bit odd), so that water can still circulate even if both valves are closed - the knob is on a valve which opens if the pressure builds up in the water circuit.
These valves also have a wire which becomes live when the valve is physically open; its this wire which is connected to the boiler and pump - a very simple way to ensure that the boiler only turns on when you actually want heat. The corresponding wires from the two valves are connected together, so the boiler turns on regardless of which valve(s) are open.

hunty1980 wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:13 am
How would I safely trace this wire to ensure the other end is the loose wire behind the programmer in the utility room?
Lots of ways, dependent on what test kit you've got. Here's one which relies on virtually nothing.
1. Turn off power to the heating circuit.
2. With both yellow ends 'floating', measure continuity between one end of the wire and earth (ideally with a multimeter; even a battery and bulb will do). There should be no continuity.
3. Connect one end of the yellow wire to earth.
4. At the other end of the yellow wire, measure continuity between the wire and earth. This time you should get an indication of continuity (probably a resistance of a few ohms at most if you're using a multimeter).
5. Restore the status quo.


You might want to replace that junction box with something bigger, to give you more wiring room; maybe something like this, although almost any proper electrical box with a terminal block inside will do. If possible, get something that caters for multiple connections for neutral and earth, so that you're not trying to get lots of wires into a single terminal.

Looking at the junction box, I would say that:
1. The wire coming in top left hand corner at the back is the thermostat
2. The wires coming in through the top conduit are probably the programmer
3. The grey wire bottom right is the incoming mains
4. The two black wires out of the bottom are the valves
5. One white wire out of the bottom will be the pump - this is always a 3-core
6. Another white wire is the tank thermostat - 3 cores is usually sufficient
7. The other white wire is the boiler - may be between 3 and 5 cores.
Obviously you'll need to check this very carefully, and trace the connections, before you do anything!

I'd say this is definitely the optimum place to connect your Pi into the system

hunty1980
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Re: Beginner - Automation of Outside Christmas Lights

Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:47 pm

stevend wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:00 am

Looking at the junction box, I would say that:
1. The wire coming in top left hand corner at the back is the thermostat
2. The wires coming in through the top conduit are probably the programmer
3. The grey wire bottom right is the incoming mains
4. The two black wires out of the bottom are the valves
5. One white wire out of the bottom will be the pump - this is always a 3-core
6. Another white wire is the tank thermostat - 3 cores is usually sufficient
7. The other white wire is the boiler - may be between 3 and 5 cores.
Obviously you'll need to check this very carefully, and trace the connections, before you do anything!

I'd say this is definitely the optimum place to connect your Pi into the system
Top marks - that's exactly how it's wired...although the wire from the boiler is only 3 core.

Now something that has thrown me there is another wire coming from the conduit that is 3 core. It seems to connect a red wire to the radiator valve. Any ideas what could this be for?

stevend
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Re: Beginner - Automation of Outside Christmas Lights

Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:54 pm

hunty1980 wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:47 pm
...although the wire from the boiler is only 3 core.
In some ways that simplifies things
hunty1980 wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:47 pm
Now something that has thrown me there is another wire coming from the conduit that is 3 core. It seems to connect a red wire to the radiator valve. Any ideas what could this be for?
How about the frost stat, which we haven't mentioned before? That should basically bypass the programmer and room thermostat, and put a live straight on to the heating circuit.

hunty1980
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Re: Beginner - Automation of Outside Christmas Lights

Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:00 pm

stevend wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:54 pm
hunty1980 wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:47 pm
...although the wire from the boiler is only 3 core.
In some ways that simplifies things
hunty1980 wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:47 pm
Now something that has thrown me there is another wire coming from the conduit that is 3 core. It seems to connect a red wire to the radiator valve. Any ideas what could this be for?
How about the frost stat, which we haven't mentioned before? That should basically bypass the programmer and room thermostat, and put a live straight on to the heating circuit.
Just logging on to reply as I had a light bulb moment with regards the frost stat. :idea:

The wire in the top leftt is actually the frost stat, so that means the Hall thermostat is feed up via the conduit!?

stevend
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Re: Beginner - Automation of Outside Christmas Lights

Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:06 pm

hunty1980 wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:00 pm
The wire in the top leftt is actually the frost stat, so that means the Hall thermostat is feed up via the conduit!?
That actually makes more sense, since the hall is presumably a short distance away?

So there should be several wires going up that conduit:
1. A T&E (twin and earth) taking power to the programmer - grey, IIRC
2. A 3C&E to the programmer (probably yellow wire unused)
3. A 3C&E to the hall thermostat

Fairly tight.

asandford
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Location: Ealing

Re: Beginner - Automation of Outside Christmas Lights

Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:38 am

stevend wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:48 pm
I'll be interested to hear how you get on with NodeRed for that bit; at present I'm using OpenHab 1.8, which works OK with some limitations, and am uncertain whether to just move to the shiny new version, or try something else.
I initially wrote my greenhouse control in python, but as I added more sensors it became a bit of a monster, with multple callbacks and added functionality such as mysql an mqtt interfaces. The biggest problem was that the Pi was in the greenhouse, and the wifi was flaky. The control of the mains devices was just an RF transmiiter sending codes to 'remote control' sockets.

I split the design in two, with the Pi being the 'brains' and an Arduino nano doing the I/O and linking them with serial over radio. This was better as I could see what the Pi was doing and as every now and again the RCD would trip and knock out the mains with the Pi ungracefully shutting down the potential for corrupting the sdcard was reduced.

This system has worked well for a few years now, withe temperature, pressure and humidity sensors send data back to the Pi and it sending actuator commands back (with data also being stored in a database). It also turns on the pond lights at sunset and off at sunrise.

The dashboard node creats a webpage that tells me at a glance what's going on.

I've had a very quick look at OpenHab. It uses java so I'll look no further, as the next iteration of my greenhouse control moves away from the Pi entirely and can't run it , but it can run Node-Red :)

hunty1980
Posts: 36
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Re: Beginner - Automation of Outside Christmas Lights

Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:15 pm

stevend wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:06 pm
hunty1980 wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:00 pm
The wire in the top leftt is actually the frost stat, so that means the Hall thermostat is feed up via the conduit!?
That actually makes more sense, since the hall is presumably a short distance away?

So there should be several wires going up that conduit:
1. A T&E (twin and earth) taking power to the programmer - grey, IIRC
2. A 3C&E to the programmer (probably yellow wire unused)
3. A 3C&E to the hall thermostat

Fairly tight.
I've spent much of the afternoon putting in a bigger junction box and rewiring everything as it is now. What I thought would be a simple job turned out to be a bit of a nightmare, as some of the wires weren't long enough and trying to get all those earth wires into the block took well over 45 mins...they just kept popping out. After a bit of swearing and persistence I managed it.

It looks even less pretty in there than it did before, but so far everything has turned on as expected. When I get some more time I'll tidy it all up...although it's probably me just being a perfectionist!!

I'm now ready to start thinking about the wiring for the relay and would appreciate guidance on the best way to wire them in.

Thanks,
G

stevend
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Re: Beginner - Automation of Outside Christmas Lights

Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:45 pm

hunty1980 wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:15 pm
some of the wires weren't long enough
You may have seen the red (and blue and yellow) crimps that are used for joining wires; they're handly for extending short wires, and will sit happily in the junction box without taking up much space. Best to go for the ratchet crimp tool; you'll get more reliable joints that way, and they're nowhere near as expensive as they used to be. People like CPC, Rapid are a useful starting point. This one from Screwfix will give you an idea of what to look for; its a good make, with a price tag to match, and probably over the top if its only going to be used occasionally.
hunty1980 wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:15 pm
and trying to get all those earth wires into the block took well over 45 mins...they just kept popping out.
If you've got spare ways on your terminal block, you can just join several together so that you're not trying to get 10 wires into one small hole!
hunty1980 wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:15 pm
I'm now ready to start thinking about the wiring for the relay and would appreciate guidance on the best way to wire them in.
Really, just pick up the wiring points mentioned earlier, except at the junction box end. Keep the relay wiring distinct from the rest (so that's it easy to disconnect), and if you disconnect existing wiring, do so in a way which means you can reliably restore it. For example, three 3-way terminal blocks, where the middle one is the wires to the heating and hot water valves, the left one is the standard stat and programmer, and the right one is your relays.

hunty1980
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Re: Beginner - Automation of Outside Christmas Lights

Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:06 pm

It was mainly the frost stat wires that weren't long enough - luckily I had some 3C+E wire in the garage, so just rewired a longer piece.

With regards the earth wires - I did as you suggested - created a 'daisy chain' with a couple of spare terminal blocks, which seemed to work well. It also gave me greater confidence that they are all securely in place and not going to pop out.
Really, just pick up the wiring points mentioned earlier, except at the junction box end. Keep the relay wiring distinct from the rest (so that's it easy to disconnect), and if you disconnect existing wiring, do so in a way which means you can reliably restore it. For example, three 3-way terminal blocks, where the middle one is the wires to the heating and hot water valves, the left one is the standard stat and programmer, and the right one is your relays.
Sorry Steve - the 3 hours in the cold garage has frozen my brain - I'm not 100% sure I understand what I need to do here. I've tried to sketch what I currently have in place (I've left off neutral and ground wires for ease). Can you point me in the right direction on the diagram. The squares with 2 dots are supposed to represent the terminal blocks!!

Please note - I've not yet thought about what I need to do in terms of replacing the current thermostat, so that might need to remain in place.

Image

bensimmo
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Location: East Yorkshire

Re: Beginner - Automation of Outside Christmas Lights

Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:21 pm

I've lost track...
So the room gets to 21C, turns the heating on and also the Christmas lights to say it's a Warm welcome this Christmas ?

User avatar
rpdom
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Re: Beginner - Automation of Outside Christmas Lights

Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:28 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:21 pm
I've lost track...
So the room gets to 21C, turns the heating on and also the Christmas lights to say it's a Warm welcome this Christmas ?
Actually, the Pi that controls my heating does also turn on my Christmas tree lights at sunset in December :D

bensimmo
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Location: East Yorkshire

Re: Beginner - Automation of Outside Christmas Lights

Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:46 pm

The best bit is that it's been some nice and interesting chat :-)

I looked at my heating, but my device and boiler modulates the heating, it's not just on/off.
I don't even want to think about start points, end points, Min and max flow rates.

The TRV do the room limits and the boiler works on getting all the rooms to their temperature, sees the heat of the water coming back (as far as I know) and checks the weather outside. Does some magic to modulate the flow and water temp and works nicely.

It doesn't use it's own central thermostat anymore (it has one but only if I drop back to the older none compensation methods as far as I know).

House has been a lovely even temperature.
Just need to tweak the TRV temps (they are just basic ones).

hunty1980
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Re: Beginner - Automation of Outside Christmas Lights

Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:56 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:46 pm
The best bit is that it's been some nice and interesting chat :-)
I'm a Yorkshireman - we like to chit-chat :)
The TRV do the room limits and the boiler works on getting all the rooms to their temperature
Yeah I also have some basic TRVs installed in all my rooms...not sure how that will impact/benefit the project I'm working on!?

bensimmo
Posts: 2078
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Location: East Yorkshire

Re: Beginner - Automation of Outside Christmas Lights

Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:44 pm

The way mine works
In its basic config (as far as I know)
TRV on all but radiator in the Thermostat room (hallway).
Thermostat has a setpoint temp, boiler pumps out until the room comes close or over that. It the turns on/off.
TRV under modulate-ish until they lock off to some set number.
Rooms may or may not reach the TRV setpoint as Thermostat switches off.
Pointless setup as it's not really doing its job, room may be cold or hallway damn hot if you set thermostat to be high etc.
(Actually my boiler modulates near the setpoint to try and keep that room at that temp, lowering flow and/or flame as far as I know).
As it has a schedule it also has a optimising mode and tried to get the room at 22C at 7:00, not just turn on at 7:00 and optimises this over time w.r.t. outside temp, room temp and previous readings (I think).
Same for cool down.

Weather Compensation mode is cleverer in that it always pretty much runs but with "magic maths" to ignore the thermostat and uses water temp and modulates the burner.
This pushes the standard TRV to be the room controller.
Something like that.
Anyway after a bit it's settled and the house is cosier even in this "East Riding" flutter of snow and ice" and I have single wall none insulated floors at one end of the house and current reg insulated cavity walls and floor at the other.


It has night mode (so turns off weather compensation off as I think the pump would run all the time then) and in house detect (I do not use as it relies on phones)

Basically far more than I thought I wanted, all I wanted was an easy to set scheduler and remote turn on.
I do like the Holiday mode, set my return date and time and it t
Urns itself back on so the room is at whatever temp it is at.


I have a combi so the hot water functions are not used but they look quite good too.

Shame the IoT side of it is not as integrated in this Wave (same as Nefity) as Hive/Nest appear they are, fine on the phone app, but no webapp and I can get some basic IFFT stuff but that's very basic.
But I don't believe they have EMS boiler control. Could be wrong though.

I'll be putting my effort into my bathroom underfloor heating as the controller for that while works is naff, faffy to program a timer, fiddly to 'boost' and has no external IoTness.
But not for a year or so.

Have fun.
Now make the Tree lights change colour so you know the temperature of the room.


(I would like to log my room temps just so I can see them).
Springing wires all over for DS18 temp sensors seems a faff though and PSUs for Zeros/Arduino is a bit over kill.

stevend
Posts: 143
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:28 pm

Re: Beginner - Automation of Outside Christmas Lights

Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:08 pm

hunty1980 wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:06 pm
Sorry Steve - the 3 hours in the cold garage has frozen my brain - I'm not 100% sure I understand what I need to do here. I've tried to sketch what I currently have in place (I've left off neutral and ground wires for ease). Can you point me in the right direction on the diagram. The squares with 2 dots are supposed to represent the terminal blocks!!
One side of each relay contact needs to go to the live supply.

Then, ultimately, the other side of the relay contacts needs to go to the two brown wires in your diagram. With a live on that point the corresponding valve opens, and when it opens the pump and boiler turns on.

In the short term, the heating control relay needs to switch the red wire which goes to the hall stat.

You'll also need to disconnect the corresponding wires from the programmer (basically your two relays are replacing the switch contacts which are in the programmer)

bensimmo wrote: I looked at my heating, but my device and boiler modulates the heating, it's not just on/off.
I've just changed from a fairly ancient 'on/off' boiler to a modulating one, and it's interesting to see the difference. The older boiler used to manage an 11 degree differential across itself, and when the output temperature reached its setpoint the boiler would switch off until the output temperature decreased by about 10 degrees. So the output temperature looked like a sawtooth. Added to which the boiler was either undersized or not very good, since it would take a long time to get up to temperature (over an hour if half a dozen radiators were on).

The new boiler can manage a temperature differential of up to 20 degrees across it; once the output temperature setpoint is reached the output temperature just levels off, while the input temperature keeps on increasing untils there's just 5 or 6 degrees differential (and, presumably rather less gas being used). Even better, the heating loop is up to temperature in 10-15 minutes.
bensimmo wrote: The TRV do the room limits and the boiler works on getting all the rooms to their temperature, sees the heat of the water coming back (as far as I know) and checks the weather outside. Does some magic to modulate the flow and water temp and works nicely.
Just need to tweak the TRV temps (they are just basic ones).
I've got remote controlled TRVs on all rooms, since it would be a waste to heat the whole house all the time. They have internal time switches to have different demand temperatures at different times, and locally regulate the flow through each radiator. While they have internal sensors, I have a load of one wire bus sensors round the rooms, and their readings are sent to the valves so that they get a better idea of ambient.
bensimmo wrote: Springing wires all over for DS18 temp sensors seems a faff though and PSUs for Zeros/Arduino is a bit over kill.
I agree - best done when the house is in pieces anyway. (I guess radio-based sensors are a possibility, but I detest anything like that which requires batteries; zero maintenance is my objective)

bensimmo
Posts: 2078
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:02 pm
Location: East Yorkshire

Re: Beginner - Automation of Outside Christmas Lights

Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:41 am

It's a shame as a year and a bit ago it was in pieces, what with a same size again extension and full heating and electrics needed.
(It's a bungalow).

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