sgomon
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Problems adding a USB 3.0 SSD to PI4

Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:10 pm

I'm trying to add an SSD to a PI4 with a USB 3.0 adapter cable. Using a monitor and keyboard, I am able to configure the drive and access it. The drive shows up on the desktop. Here are the problems:

When the drive is plugged in, I cannot use Putty to remote in using SSH from another computer.
If the drive is connected to a USB 3.0 port, the PI is really sluggish when typing or using the mouse.
If the drive is connected to a USB 2.0 port, everything works fine (except being able to remote in).

Any help would be appreciated.

LTolledo
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Re: Problems adding a USB 3.0 SSD to PI4

Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:05 am

what power source?
what OS?
what SATA to USB3.0 adaptor?

what else you dont want to tell us?
"Don't come to me with 'issues' for I don't know how to deal with those
Come to me with 'problems' and I'll help you find solutions"

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sgomon
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Re: Problems adding a USB 3.0 SSD to PI4

Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:19 pm

Sorry, new to this.

Powering from USB, made setting to config.txt to boost USB power. I can access the drive.
OS: Buster
This is the adapter: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07FD ... UTF8&psc=1

dgordon42
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Re: Problems adding a USB 3.0 SSD to PI4

Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:40 pm

Some USB3 to hard drive adapters don't work well with the Pi 4B.
See this thread for more details and a possible fix.

Hope this helps,
Dave.

sgomon
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Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:01 pm

Re: Problems adding a USB 3.0 SSD to PI4

Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:10 pm

Thanks for the help. It appears that the problem is probably my SATA adapter. Could anyone tell me which adapter works out of the box with a PI4B? I'd rather not have to make configuration changes if I don't have to.

dgordon42
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Re: Problems adding a USB 3.0 SSD to PI4

Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:33 pm

It is not so much the adapter as the adapter's chip-set.

At the moment I'm using a StarTech S251BU31315 adapter which has an ASMedia ASM1351 chip-set. It is working with an old Crucial BX100 120GB SSD. I did have problems getting it to work in the beginning, I had to plug it into a Pi 3B+ and partition and format the drive there, before it worked for me on the Pi 4B.

The thread I refereed you to above mentioned other chip-sets that work as well, some from ASMedia and some from JSMicron.
Also, there is no guarantee that a known good chip-set will work with every SSD out there. Searching the internet returns lots of conflicting results and advice.

The fix in the thread above should fix your slow mouse problems. It should also boost your drives performance.
It is not too difficult to implement, won't affect a new adapter with a different chip-set, and is easy to undo.

I'm not sure how it ties in with your SSH problem. Do you have any other network connection problems?

Dave.

sgomon
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Re: Problems adding a USB 3.0 SSD to PI4

Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:14 pm

I ordered an ASMedia chipset based SATA adapter, which I will try.
I'll also try the fix for my current adapter.
I have a USB 2.0 drive "toaster" that I will also try.

I want to see if any of these changes fix the SSH problem. That only happens when the drive is plugged in with the current adapter. If I try to remote in using Putty, it just times out when the drive is connected. Unplug the drive and I can get in just fine. No other networking problems that I can see.

LTolledo
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Re: Problems adding a USB 3.0 SSD to PI4

Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:32 pm

You're still not telling us the power source for your RPi...(output voltage, ampere rating). A link or an image of the nameplate will be helpful.

as for the SATA to USB adapters that I have tested and confirmed to work with RPi4B as well can be found here
viewtopic.php?f=63&t=239282&p=1461542&h ... B#p1461542
"Don't come to me with 'issues' for I don't know how to deal with those
Come to me with 'problems' and I'll help you find solutions"

Some people be like:
"Help me! Am drowning! But dont you dare touch me nor come near me!"

sgomon
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Re: Problems adding a USB 3.0 SSD to PI4

Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:21 pm

No luck with the cmdline.txt fix when plugging the adapter into a USB 3.0 port. System is pretty much unusable. Typing and moving mouse is really really slow.

If I plug the adapter into a USB 2.0 port, the system is normal. I am also able to remote in from another computer. Maybe the cmdline.txt fixed that problem.

Will see how USB 3.0 works tomorrow when ASMedia chipset adapter comes in.

By the way, I am using the Canakit 3.5A power module.

emma1997
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Re: Problems adding a USB 3.0 SSD to PI4

Fri Feb 28, 2020 12:26 am

I have similar issues when plugging pretty much anything into a USB3 port on any of several Pi4 I own. Keyboard/mouse flaky, WIFI fails, poor Bluetooth range etc.. While evaluating RFI during some relay testing it turned out USB3 was creating far more interference than anything else.

Only solution for me at the moment is use USB2 for the SATA adapters and an extension cable for the Logitech kbd/mouse dongle. BT and WIFI ok now. Incidentally fixes the chipset incompatibility too. I can plug portable USB HD or a low speed SD reader into USB3 w/o problems but not a high speed one or SATA adapter.

In other threads using extension cables for kbd/mouse and wrapping external SATA devices in foil fixed similar issues. In mine long dongle cable and switching to USB2 was the best solution.

For now I don't consider my Pi4 to really have 4 ports but still do feel benefits outweigh drawbacks. Except for copying really large files and images, the slower disk speed is ok for most of what I do. If those become necessary I tolerate no WIFI and slow mouse because it's only temporarily.

I wonder if the new Pi4 v1.2 design has ameliorated any of these problems. High secrecy and lack of info on actual changes makes me suspicious.

ejolson
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Re: Problems adding a USB 3.0 SSD to PI4

Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:35 am

emma1997 wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 12:26 am
I have similar issues when plugging pretty much anything into a USB3 port on any of several Pi4 I own. Keyboard/mouse flaky, WIFI fails, poor Bluetooth range etc.. While evaluating RFI during some relay testing it turned out USB3 was creating far more interference than anything else.
I wonder if shielded USB cables would help. Are you sure the noise isn't coming from your power supply instead? I think it's possible for a cheap power supply to provide what looks like the correct voltage but with so much ripple that all the input output devices act flakey.

I once purchased a replacement power supply for a notebook computer that was so noisy it became impossible to use the track pad. Then I fixed the broken connector on the original supply and everything worked great again. I've had similar experiences with cheap ATX power supplies for PCs that started providing such bad power the computer no longer functioned properly.

fanoush
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Re: Problems adding a USB 3.0 SSD to PI4

Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:31 am

ejolson wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:35 am
I wonder if shielded USB cables would help. Are you sure the noise isn't coming from your power supply instead?
Interesting paper about this usb 3.0 interference issue
https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en ... paper.html

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HawaiianPi
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Re: Problems adding a USB 3.0 SSD to PI4

Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:12 pm

I can vouch for the Eluteng adapters with ASMedia chipsets that LTolledo has on his list. I have both the older (Black) and newer (Blue) models, and they work fine on Raspberry Pi computers. Note that I tested the newer adapter with SSD (not HDD, like LTolledo), but the old adapter was tested with a wide variety of both SSD and HDD of different sizes, makes and models, and it worked with all of them.

One thing to note, though, is that the older "Black" model does not support TRIM without a firmware update. So out of the box the newer "Blue" model is preferable for use with an SSD (doesn't matter for HDD). I've also found the newer model is a bit faster (although the difference may not be noticeable).

In case you're wondering about the Black and Blue thing, it's not part of the name or specs, it's just the color of the SATA connector.
ELUTENG_old_new.jpg
ELUTENG_old_new.jpg (40.36 KiB) Viewed 1897 times

Since LTolledo had trouble with the newer Eluteng Blue adapter and HDD, I ran a quick test with a 640GB WD Scorpio HDD (WD6400BEVT) and had no trouble with booting or rebooting my Pi4B2 with the official USB-C power supply (/boot on uSD card and / OS on HDD). Then I tried it on my 4B4 with the older 2.5A micro-USB official power supply (with a Volutz brand USB-C adapter), and that worked as well (cold boot & reboot).

I also have an mSATA adapter from Eluteng that looks like this.
Eluteng-mSATA-USB3.jpg
Eluteng-mSATA-USB3.jpg (41.94 KiB) Viewed 1897 times

That one also has the ASMedia 1153E chipset that works well with the Pi, but it also needed a firmware update to fix TRIM.

So to summarize, the newer Eluteng USB 3.0 to SATA-III adapter cable with the blue SATA connector works and supports TRIM out of the box. The older model with the black SATA connector, as well as the smaller mSATA-USB 3.0 adapter work fine, but do not support TRIM with their default firmware (can update with a newer firmware to support TRIM).

Notes:
Firmware updates for ASMedia based adapters are hard to find (ASMedia does not make them available to the public), but if you can find a newer firmware and the flashing utility, then the TRIM issue could be fixed (it fixed TRIM on my TNP and Eluteng adapters). As with all such things, a flash failure could brick your adapter, so do this at your own risk.

Looks can be deceiving:
Beware of lookalikes! There are a bunch of these things on the market that look the same with different chipsets. There's no guarantee even the Eluteng will always be the same, but I have several of them ordered at different times from Amazon, and they are all the same (so far).

Keyboard/Mouse and network problems:
One final note about your trouble. USB 3.0 is known to interfere with 2.4GHz wireless devices, and that's a common frequency for wireless mouse and keyboard dongles (also Bluetooth). So I'm guessing you are using a wireless keyboard and mouse and 2.4GHz WiFi. This is not a Raspberry Pi specific issue, it happens on other computers as well (even some very expensive Macbook models). The fix is better shielded USB-3 cables, and putting the keyboard+mouse dongle on a shielded USB 2.0 extension cable (even a short one will do).

Fixing keyboard/Mouse problems:
During my tests above, with the HDD sitting on top of the Pi4 case, my Logitech K400r keyboard and track-pad were lagging (2.4GHz dongle). I moved the drive about 7-8 inches away and the problem was gone. I have previously resolved the problem by moving the keyboard + mouse dongle a short distance away with a shielded USB extension cable. No problems with WiFi because I was connected to 5GHz.
My mind is like a browser. 27 tabs are open, 9 aren't responding,
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emma1997
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Re: Problems adding a USB 3.0 SSD to PI4

Fri Feb 28, 2020 8:35 pm

ejolson wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:35 am
Are you sure the noise isn't coming from your power supply instead?
Yes, I spent many hours during new years break with a couple radio buddies investigating Pi sensitivity to noise. It started out for relay circuits but we quickly discovered they were minor compared to other RFI.

Out of several different DC converters a couple unusually noisy ones were eliminated early but most weren't a problem. At this point it became evident certain things plugged into USB3 caused the most RFI. Not everything though. Some devices killed WIFI totally, others just reduced range, a few had little or no effect.

We also noticed things differed depending on who's house we were testing at. It appeared Pi4 orientation, router model, surrounding wires, and other external factors were involved. Somewhat worse than running a typical PC motherboard w/o a case.

ATM the fix is dollar store extension cables and using USB2 port instead of USB3 for troublemakers. Not perfect but for now...

Since most of these plug-ins were E-bargains possibly cheapness and cut corners had something to do with it (but not all IME). There weren't any actual USB3 extension cables available at the time so a few were placed on order. At least advertised as 'shielded'. They cost 2x-4x more than cheapie USB2 ones but might allow things currently problematic to function in USB3. I even ordered a couple domestic that should arrive next week.

Weeeee shall seeeeee...

emma1997
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Re: Problems adding a USB 3.0 SSD to PI4

Fri Feb 28, 2020 8:52 pm

HawaiianPi,

We did try the same Eluteng adapter from one of your links (BTW thanks). While it solved that compatibility issue and proved key to finding other cheaper units, still killed WIFI in a USB3 port. OK in USB2.

I'm wondering if the SSD model or case has something to do with it. They were all Team brand 64g to 512g. Some with metal others all plastic. I should take another look at that.

PS The kbd/mouse dongle was standard Logitech Unifying type which IIRC are 2.4ghz.
Last edited by emma1997 on Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PeterO
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Re: Problems adding a USB 3.0 SSD to PI4

Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:02 pm

emma1997 wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 8:52 pm
Peter0,
Why are you replying to me when I haven't posted anything on this thread ? :roll:
PeterO
Discoverer of the PI2 XENON DEATH FLASH!
Interests: C,Python,PIC,Electronics,Ham Radio (G0DZB),1960s British Computers.
"The primary requirement (as we've always seen in your examples) is that the code is readable. " Dougie Lawson

emma1997
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Re: Problems adding a USB 3.0 SSD to PI4

Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:04 pm

Guess I got confused by all that fur. lol. Fixed it.

LTolledo
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Re: Problems adding a USB 3.0 SSD to PI4

Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:08 pm

HawaiianPi wrote: Since LTolledo had trouble with the newer Eluteng Blue adapter and HDD, I ran a quick test with a 640GB WD Scorpio HDD (WD6400BEVT) and had no trouble with booting or rebooting my Pi4B2
Just to clarify my trouble with the Eluteng Blue adapter...its the combination with 4TB HDD and natively booting from it (the test was with a RPi3B+).
with any HDD with a capacity up to 2TB, native USB booting on the RPi3B+ using the Eluteng blue adapter is "Confirmed PASSED" :D.

as data drive adapter....its always "Confirmed PASSED"

have not done native USB booting on RPi4B as it not (yet) possible. Not yet tried the adapter using RonR's script.

I did tried this as USB3.0 HDD, and using RonR's script on an RPi4B-4G. The 4-tier combination worked in my setup.
M.2 2280 SATA 120GB.jpg
M.2 2280 SATA 120GB.jpg (37.29 KiB) Viewed 1819 times
Eluteng M.2 SATA adapter.jpg
Eluteng M.2 SATA adapter.jpg (24.85 KiB) Viewed 1819 times
"Don't come to me with 'issues' for I don't know how to deal with those
Come to me with 'problems' and I'll help you find solutions"

Some people be like:
"Help me! Am drowning! But dont you dare touch me nor come near me!"

sgomon
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Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:01 pm

Re: Problems adding a USB 3.0 SSD to PI4

Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:42 am

I got a new adapter (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07F7 ... UTF8&psc=1) and had these results...

Plugged the SSD into the USB 3.0 port with the adapter above. Keyboard and mouse worked fine along with everything else BUT, could not remote in with Putty and also could not access the shared drive on the PI. Both from another computer.

Putting the adapter fix in /boot/cmdline.txt did not fix the problem.

ejolson
Posts: 5092
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Re: Problems adding a USB 3.0 SSD to PI4

Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:54 am

sgomon wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:42 am
I got a new adapter (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07F7 ... UTF8&psc=1) and had these results...

Plugged the SSD into the USB 3.0 port with the adapter above. Keyboard and mouse worked fine along with everything else BUT, could not remote in with Putty and also could not access the shared drive on the PI. Both from another computer.

Putting the adapter fix in /boot/cmdline.txt did not fix the problem.
Does the new adapter work in the USB2 port without problem?

LTolledo
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Re: Problems adding a USB 3.0 SSD to PI4

Sat Feb 29, 2020 10:13 am

The SATA to USB3.0 adapter in the link looked like the Moyagao one on my list......
am currently using it now.... but not currently on a RPi system....
Mayogao SATA to USB3.0 in use.jpg
Mayogao SATA to USB3.0 in use.jpg (160.12 KiB) Viewed 1756 times

however... I did tried to connect one of the HDD-Adapter combo (still mounted on the rack) to my RPi4B-4G desktop
connected just fine... and I was able to access the files and it played (using VLC.....still watching as I wrote this post)

I cant determine if the one that you have and the ones that I have are "identical", but mine is "Confirmed PASSED" :D
"Don't come to me with 'issues' for I don't know how to deal with those
Come to me with 'problems' and I'll help you find solutions"

Some people be like:
"Help me! Am drowning! But dont you dare touch me nor come near me!"

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HawaiianPi
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Re: Problems adding a USB 3.0 SSD to PI4

Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:14 am

emma1997 wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 8:52 pm
HawaiianPi,

We did try the same Eluteng adapter from one of your links (BTW thanks). While it solved that compatibility issue and proved key to finding other cheaper units, still killed WIFI in a USB3 port. OK in USB2.
Fixing wireless keyboard/mouse issues is simple. Just put the dongle on a shielded USB 2.0 extension cable. I've used cables as short as 6 inches, although I can't seem to find my 6 inch cable at the moment, so I tested it with an 18 inch cable (46 cm), and my Logitech K400r keyboard + Unifying dongle worked fine. WiFi works on 5GHz network, but that won't help if you only have 2.4GHz.

emma1997 wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 8:52 pm
I'm wondering if the SSD model or case has something to do with it. They were all Team brand 64g to 512g. Some with metal others all plastic. I should take another look at that.
That's possible, if the noise is coming from the drive and not the USB adapter (but it's probably not that simple).

Increase the Distance
Moving the drive a short distance away also resolved the keyboard problems for me, without an extension cable (dongle plugged directly into Pi4). Might help with WiFi as well (I switched to my 2.4GHz network and it worked). Just the length of the Eluteng adapter cable was enough (adapter length is about 7 inches; I didn't test any other distances).

With the SSD mounted directly above the Pi4 there were issues.
Eluteng_above.jpg
Eluteng_above.jpg (23.24 KiB) Viewed 1640 times

Simply placing the drive with the adapter cable straight was enough distance to fix the keyboard, mouse and 2.4GHz WiFi troubles.
Eluteng_straight.jpg
Eluteng_straight.jpg (57.23 KiB) Viewed 1640 times

About the Picture
I cloned the SSD and used the same type of Eluteng adapter, with the cable straight. Original SSD was still mounted on top of Pi4, but was not in use during the test. White micro-USB cable is for serial console. My Eluteng "Blue" adapter cables are still on the default firmware (only the older ones were upgraded to fix TRIM), so my results should be valid for others.

These results seem to indicate the RFI is coming from the SSD or the SATA end of the cable, where the ASMedia chip is located (the USB 3.0 cable itself seems to be adequately shielded). Further testing would be needed to determine the source and solution.
My mind is like a browser. 27 tabs are open, 9 aren't responding,
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IanS
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Re: Problems adding a USB 3.0 SSD to PI4

Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:02 pm

I have a Pi4 with USB3 SSD that works fine with no tweaks required, other than repointing the root device in the SD card /boot/cmdline.txt to the USB drive.
The USB adapter is a StarTech USB3S2SAT3CB (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00HJZJI84), and the SSD is a Crucial BX500 CT120BX500SSD1(Z) (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07G3L3DRK).

I also have another Pi4 with a USB3 SSD which is being used as an additional drive rather than root. An Amazon Basics adapter (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01N5RLG2C), again with a larger Crucial BX500 drive (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07G3KRZBX).

Whether the drive is the cable length away from the Pi, or curled up with the Pi on top of the drive does not seem to matter.

ejolson
Posts: 5092
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Re: Problems adding a USB 3.0 SSD to PI4

Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:48 pm

IanS wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:02 pm
I have a Pi4 with USB3 SSD that works fine with no tweaks required, other than repointing the root device in the SD card /boot/cmdline.txt to the USB drive.
The USB adapter is a StarTech USB3S2SAT3CB (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00HJZJI84), and the SSD is a Crucial BX500 CT120BX500SSD1(Z) (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07G3L3DRK).

I also have another Pi4 with a USB3 SSD which is being used as an additional drive rather than root. An Amazon Basics adapter (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01N5RLG2C), again with a larger Crucial BX500 drive (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07G3KRZBX).

Whether the drive is the cable length away from the Pi, or curled up with the Pi on top of the drive does not seem to matter.
Did either or both of those adapters have SSD TRIM support out of the box?

sgomon
Posts: 7
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Re: Problems adding a USB 3.0 SSD to PI4

Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:46 pm

ejolson wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:54 am
sgomon wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:42 am
I got a new adapter (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07F7 ... UTF8&psc=1) and had these results...

Plugged the SSD into the USB 3.0 port with the adapter above. Keyboard and mouse worked fine along with everything else BUT, could not remote in with Putty and also could not access the shared drive on the PI. Both from another computer.

Putting the adapter fix in /boot/cmdline.txt did not fix the problem.
Does the new adapter work in the USB2 port without problem?
Everything is working fine when connected to USB 2.0. I am going to move the SSD away from the PI as suggested in other posts to see if it will work on USB 3.0.

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