ethernet over powerline driver

[tpaullee]

I searched with "ethernet over powerline" and did not get what I wanted to know and ask.
I am using a new PI 4 as a rocket.chat server in a cruise/trip setting. I like to see if I can add functionality of "Ethernet over Powerline" to this PI.
One can certainly buy one such unit (TP-Link and so on) from Amazon and use it with my PI as a pair.
I wonder where I can find resources, like spec, or open source driver for this feature so that I can make it work in my PI with Raspian OS.

Thanks in advance for any leads.
T.Paul

[DougieLawson]

https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/poe-hat/

[drgeoff]

https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/poe-hat/

Another example of Dougie's inability to read and comprehend.

The OP is asking about ethernet over mains wiring. No connection whatsoever with Power over Ethernet.

[drgeoff]

I searched with "ethernet over powerline" and did not get what I wanted to know and ask.
I am using a new PI 4 as a rocket.chat server in a cruise/trip setting. I like to see if I can add functionality of "Ethernet over Powerline" to this PI.
One can certainly buy one such unit (TP-Link and so on) from Amazon and use it with my PI as a pair.
I wonder where I can find resources, like spec, or open source driver for this feature so that I can make it work in my PI with Raspian OS.

Thanks in advance for any leads.
T.Paul

You don't need a special driver. The whole purpose of those units is that they give you a connection which emulates an ethernet cable plugged in to the ethernet jack of the equipments you want to connect.

[fruitoftheloom]

I searched with "ethernet over powerline" and did not get what I wanted to know and ask.
I am using a new PI 4 as a rocket.chat server in a cruise/trip setting. I like to see if I can add functionality of "Ethernet over Powerline" to this PI.
One can certainly buy one such unit (TP-Link and so on) from Amazon and use it with my PI as a pair.
I wonder where I can find resources, like spec, or open source driver for this feature so that I can make it work in my PI with Raspian OS.

Thanks in advance for any leads.
T.Paul

http://solwise.co.uk/net-powerline-intro.htm

[tpaullee]

I searched with "ethernet over powerline" and did not get what I wanted to know and ask.
I am using a new PI 4 as a rocket.chat server in a cruise/trip setting. I like to see if I can add functionality of "Ethernet over Powerline" to this PI.
One can certainly buy one such unit (TP-Link and so on) from Amazon and use it with my PI as a pair.
I wonder where I can find resources, like spec, or open source driver for this feature so that I can make it work in my PI with Raspian OS.

Thanks in advance for any leads.
T.Paul

http://solwise.co.uk/net-powerline-intro.htm

Thanks for the link. I liked this e-commerce site. Very organized and have good information about the products.
At least this Ethernet over Powerline/Mains is what I am looking to emulate with my Raspberry PI. Some other replies are about Power over Ethernet which is to supply power to my Pi with hardwired Ethernet connection. Very easy to confuse between these two use cases.

I am creating a portable rocket.chat server to use in a trip (or cruise ship) setting. I can use one of these Ethernet over Powerline in the cabin or hotel room to increase coverage for the portable chat server. I was thinking whether I can add this functionality to the PI itself so that I can carry one fewer gadgets during travel. You guys made me think more about this new functionality. I will have to connect the PI to the wall plug and that's extra hardware beyond the normal PI hardware. If I power my PI from the mains, then I should use that power adapter/plug naturally.
Then what I need is the driver or module for the Linux inside the PI software stack.
These vendors have them for sure. Apparently it is not a hot item in Open Source software project as far as I can tell.

Thanks for all the replies.

[fruitoftheloom]

. If I power my PI from the mains, then I should use that power adapter/plug naturally.
Then what I need is the driver or module for the Linux inside the PI software stack.
These vendors have them for sure. Apparently it is not a hot item in Open Source software project as far as I can tell.

You need at least 2 X Powerline Adaptors.

One is connected to the Router* via Ethernet Cable or WiFi and the other is connected to your Raspberry Pi via Ethernet Cable or WiFi**

If you use Ethernet Powerline Adaptors many are sold with mains pass-through.

Powerline Adaptors are not meant to be built into a Computer so therefore why no "open source" stack.



* There are Routers with built in Powerline

** The Powerline Adaptors must be on the same mains ring main......

[HermannSW]

The first adapter takes ethernet and encodes the data on powerline.
The 2nd adapter decodes the data from powerline and provides ethernet plug where you can connect a computer/Pi.

You cannot do the 2nd part with the Pi, because the Pi cannot access mains (anything above 3.3V kills the Pi).
And because the data protocol on mains line is not documented.

[pi-anazazi]

But the protocol must follow some kind of standarization as different vendors products are said to be cross-compatible, I read on the interwebs.

I have an interesting "issue" with these devices: I bought a set of two of those adapters, but could not get a connection between the two corners of the house. Thought: OK, apparently not the same phase, so it doesn't work. Then I bought for another project another pair from the same vendor, plugged one in and suddenly I had a connection to the other side of the house, not reachable before (with a total of 3 adapters plugged in the power grid).

I had a look at the interwebs again, but apparently the network with these adapters is peer-to-peer, not some kind of mesh. And apparently the high frequency of the signal can cross between the three phases used in normal electric installations when the cabels are close to each other.

TLDR: 3 powerlines can do things 2 powerlines won't do...

[drgeoff]

There are HUGE safety issues in the design of Ethernet over mains wiring units. Certainly not something the OP should be trying to do with a RPi except by using the commercial units.

The protocols are known. There are two that have been widely implemented by several manufacturers. They are not simple.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HomePlug_ ... e_Alliance
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.hn

[pi-anazazi]

There are HUGE safety issues in the design of Ethernet over mains wiring units. Certainly not something the OP should be trying to do with a RPi except by using the commercial units.

The protocols are known. There are two that have been widely implemented by several manufacturers. They are not simple.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HomePlug_ ... e_Alliance
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.hn

Eeeeehmmm, stupid question, do you really mean SAFETY, as in killed-by-230v or do you mean security, as in my-network-is-open-to-the-rest-of-the-world?

[hippy]

I was thinking whether I can add this functionality to the PI itself so that I can carry one fewer gadgets during travel. You guys made me think more about this new functionality. I will have to connect the PI to the wall plug and that's extra hardware beyond the normal PI hardware.

You can take the Raspberry Pi, its PSU, a PowerLine adapter connected to the Pi with a short cable, and put it all in one plastic box and turn it into single piece of hardware. That will work 'as is'; one plastic box with a mains lead out of it.

If you an find a large enough PowerLine unit which has 'wasted space' inside it you may be able to fit a Pi inside that along with is power supply. Everything will need to be safely isolated and insulated.

You could replicate the interface a PowerLine uses to connect to the mains, and use interface chips to connect it to a Pi, but that's a much bigger task presenting serious safety issues. It's not something which would be recommended for most people.

[pi-anazazi]

...such a construct I would not use on a cruise ship, although low risk for a fire, on a ship I would not go that risk, no matter how small.

[drgeoff]

There are HUGE safety issues in the design of Ethernet over mains wiring units. Certainly not something the OP should be trying to do with a RPi except by using the commercial units.

The protocols are known. There are two that have been widely implemented by several manufacturers. They are not simple.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HomePlug_ ... e_Alliance
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.hn

Eeeeehmmm, stupid question, do you really mean SAFETY, as in killed-by-230v or do you mean security, as in my-network-is-open-to-the-rest-of-the-world?

My interpretation of "I like to see if I can add functionality of "Ethernet over Powerline" to this PI" and "I was thinking whether I can add this functionality to the PI itself so that I can carry one fewer gadgets during travel. " is that tpaullee was thinking not of using commercially available Powerline Networking units but making his own by somehow connecting his RPi to mains wiring and running the protocol software stack on the RPi. That interpretation is especially credible given the words "so that I can carry one fewer gadgets during travel".

As such, I was expressing the view (which I believe will not be challenged by anyone who truly understands the technicalities) that getting signals on to and off from wires carrying mains voltages is rather different from getting signals on to and off from an ethernet cable. Safety as in danger to life against which danger of damage to equipment or risk of data breach pale into insignificance.

[hippy]

...such a construct I would not use on a cruise ship, although low risk for a fire, on a ship I would not go that risk, no matter how small.

Not sure exactly what "construct" you mean or what you perceive to be problematic.

I would expect ships are more prepared than most places for accidental fires, from mobile and other batteries igniting and other causes. It's down mines and in space where one really has to be careful.

[Burngate]

My interpretation of "I like to see if I can add functionality of "Ethernet over Powerline" to this PI" and "I was thinking whether I can add this functionality to the PI itself so that I can carry one fewer gadgets during travel. " is that tpaullee was thinking not of using commercially available Powerline Networking units but making his own by somehow connecting his RPi to mains wiring and running the protocol software stack on the RPi. That interpretation is especially credible given the words "so that I can carry one fewer gadgets during travel".

Also what I was thinking.

His major problem as I see it (apart from safety) is that most PSUs are designed to prevent anything on the mains from reaching the Pi, and provide only constant 5v to the Pi.
That means noise of any sort, including RF data, is removed before it reaches the Pi.
Also, the Pi itself has filters built-in (capacitors) to remove any gunge remaining on the 5v rail.

Perhaps he's thinking that the data lines on the USB-c connector could somehow be used to bypass the filtering effect of the PSU, but that's a different ball-game.

[tpaullee]

There are HUGE safety issues in the design of Ethernet over mains wiring units. Certainly not something the OP should be trying to do with a RPi except by using the commercial units.

The protocols are known. There are two that have been widely implemented by several manufacturers. They are not simple.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HomePlug_ ... e_Alliance
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.hn

Completely agree with your concerns.
Thanks for the two links. They are exactly what I was looking for.
Yeah, they are not simple and probably implemented and encapsulated in a chip.
They are for the most part in Physical Layer 1 and Data Link Layer 2. I am certainly not in that league.

Best Regards,
T.Paul

[tpaullee]

My interpretation of "I like to see if I can add functionality of "Ethernet over Powerline" to this PI" and "I was thinking whether I can add this functionality to the PI itself so that I can carry one fewer gadgets during travel. " is that tpaullee was thinking not of using commercially available Powerline Networking units but making his own by somehow connecting his RPi to mains wiring and running the protocol software stack on the RPi. That interpretation is especially credible given the words "so that I can carry one fewer gadgets during travel".

Also what I was thinking.

His major problem as I see it (apart from safety) is that most PSUs are designed to prevent anything on the mains from reaching the Pi, and provide only constant 5v to the Pi.
That means noise of any sort, including RF data, is removed before it reaches the Pi.
Also, the Pi itself has filters built-in (capacitors) to remove any gunge remaining on the 5v rail.

Perhaps he's thinking that the data lines on the USB-c connector could somehow be used to bypass the filtering effect of the PSU, but that's a different ball-game.

Thanks for people commented on this thread.
Yes, my wish was indeed just that of "caring one fewer gadgets" .

Apparently this low-level functionality is not easy to integrate with PI with just my software and system level knowledge.
The extra baggage that is needed to make it work might be better served with just commercial Powerline Adapters.

I can take one extra set of Powerline adapter and try them out in hotel/cruise-ship setting.
Raspberry PI works well enough with small travel pocket size WiFi routers, which I turn them into a rocket.chat server in a mobile LAN environment without Internet. Tour bus, hotel, museum, and historical site are all good application of this.

Regards,
Paul