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Re: XBMC running on Raspberry Pi

Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:26 pm
by jamesh
virtualuk said:


Don"t you have your decode and encode the wrong way around?  If the RPi is pushing bits via HDMI to the TV via HDMI, then it"s the RPi that"s encoding it into whatever bitstream format HDMI uses, which is presumably covered in terms of license fees paid to Broadcom whom I would presume then passes on a part of the cost to cover the license fee?

edit:

If we're talking about codecs for decoding content before pushing it out of the RPi, sure, you may have to technically pay to license it, you may not depends on the format.


HDMI is an uncompressed bitstream - there licence on that is the HDM licence, not a codec licence. The Raspi decodes whatever the source bitstream is to an uncompressed bitstream which is output on the HDMI. I think HDMI is covered in the cost of the SoC, but the other Codec licences are individually negotiated.

Re: XBMC running on Raspberry Pi

Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:03 pm
by iamchrismoran
Right, it seems that any audio codecs that aren't s/w licensed would be output at a basic stereo output, but the digital stream itself would stay intact to be decoded by an external device (audio receiver for example). That's my basic understanding.

Seems like we may be out of the scope of the original topic though. The content I put through my XBMC on my XBox (original) goes to me receiver via a toslink cable and then gets decoded at the end.Seems like the most efficient way to not spend cycles decoding audio.

Re: XBMC running on Raspberry Pi

Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:33 pm
by jamesh
HDMI only supports sending compressed (or for example Dolby) over the audio lines as an option. I am not sure what Raspi supports in this area. The ONLY defined format it HAS to support is stereo (uncompressed) PCM. To get that is needs to decode the audio bitstream in the container.

If that codec isn't licensed on the GPU it's possible to decode it on the Arm - there are lots of free Arm audio decoders that you could download (ref. Ubuntu restricted extras). I am not sure of the architecture here - data needs to be sent to the arm and decoded then sent back to the GPU to be sent down the HDMI cable.

Re: XBMC running on Raspberry Pi

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:53 am
by justin12234
is there anymore updates on how the coding is going and when it'll be released?

Re: XBMC running on Raspberry Pi

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:03 am
by justin12234


it runs smoother than i thought they would be able to get it to, and there is also free ram on it. im wondering if itll be able to support addons or other skins and be able to run smoothly, and also what is the Serial connection used for?

Re: XBMC running on Raspberry Pi

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:05 am
by grey
great news!

Re: XBMC running on Raspberry Pi

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:16 am
by liamfraser280
It's looking fantastic. I'll take a guess and say that the serial connection is used so they can see some debug output without showing it on the main screen. Won't be needed when they release it . I'm hoping I can get a YouTube or BBC I player add on going.

Re: XBMC running on Raspberry Pi

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:30 am
by justin12234
Liam Fraser said:


It's looking fantastic. I'll take a guess and say that the serial connection is used so they can see some debug output without showing it on the main screen. Won't be needed when they release it . I'm hoping I can get a YouTube or BBC I player add on going.


thanks, id also like to see a youtube player for it that can play 1080p, now ill have to find a decent size external hard drive and rip all my dvds lol

Re: XBMC running on Raspberry Pi

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:30 am
by __Miguel_
grey said:


great news!


Indeed! This is kind of MASSIVE, we now basically have what is probably the smallest, cheapest, fully unlocked full-fledged media player, capable of handling what appears to be just about anything you can throw at it, short of 3D video (and possibly very high-bitrate streams), EVER available (or, in this case, almost available)!

To think this kind of thing would be undreamed of just five or six years ago (heck, it still baffles me today!) and watching it happen now, is just AMAZING!

Now, I hope the XBMC team (or whoever is porting it, but I'm assuming the XBMC team is involved) will be able to get it a bit smoother (and easier on the CPU), or at least someone will get a very lightweight skin on it, so you don't notice the small hickups.

Congrats to both the R-Pi team for creating this beautiful thing, and the people handling the port of XBMC to it.

Wow... Just... Wow...

Miguel

Re: XBMC running on Raspberry Pi

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:33 am
by tbar
Wow! Now the RPi has its killer-app!

Re: XBMC running on Raspberry Pi

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:52 am
by scep
Very impressive indeed – and a damn sight more portable than my current old XBox setup

Though as for a RasPi killer app, I'd always rather hoped that it would be this:



;P

Re: XBMC running on Raspberry Pi

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:43 am
by Michael
iamchrismoran said:


Right, it seems that any audio codecs that aren't s/w licensed would be output at a basic stereo output, but the digital stream itself would stay intact to be decoded by an external device (audio receiver for example). That's my basic understanding.


Its actually the other way around.  If you want to downmix the Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus or DTS audio to stereo on the R.Pi, you need the appropriate license.  Similarly, if you want to downmix/transcode Dolby Digital Plus or DTS to Dolby Digital you need appropriate licenses.

If all you want to do is pass-through the (encoded) audio stream on HDMI or S/PDIF you don't need codec licenses.  However if your receiving device doesn't support that audio format (most TVs don't support DD+ or DTS), you won't get any sound at all.

Re: XBMC running on Raspberry Pi

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:51 am
by liamfraser280
scep said:


Very impressive indeed – and a damn sight more portable than my current old XBox setup

Though as for a RasPi killer app, I'd always rather hoped that it would be this:



;P



I also have the old XBox setup !

As well as being rediculously heavy, I find the fan really loud too. Can't wait to replace it with one of these once the demand goes down and we can order multiple Pi's.

Re: XBMC running on Raspberry Pi

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:38 pm
by Simon H
As a long time user of XBMC I can't wait to replace my currnet devices with RPi's. I am currently using 2 hacked XBOX 1's and a laptop running XBMC for the High Def video.

My first RPi will be a dev machine but once we are allowed to purchase more I will be replacing all my XBMC machines.

One question will the RPi version be able to use the central shared MySQL database I have setup as my old XBOX's can't and this has been a reason to ditch them for a while but my budget didn't stretch to new PC based devices.

Re: XBMC running on Raspberry Pi

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:43 pm
by iamchrismoran
Michael said:


iamchrismoran said:


Right, it seems that any audio codecs that aren't s/w licensed would be output at a basic stereo output, but the digital stream itself would stay intact to be decoded by an external device (audio receiver for example). That's my basic understanding.


Its actually the other way around.  If you want to downmix the Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus or DTS audio to stereo on the R.Pi, you need the appropriate license.  Similarly, if you want to downmix/transcode Dolby Digital Plus or DTS to Dolby Digital you need appropriate licenses.

If all you want to do is pass-through the (encoded) audio stream on HDMI or S/PDIF you don't need codec licenses.  However if your receiving device doesn't support that audio format (most TVs don't support DD+ or DTS), you won't get any sound at all.


Oh. I didn't realize that. Well... more to my argument against locked proprietary information... but that's another thread altogether. I don't upgrade my gear very often, but even my older gear will do the decoding, so I picture most people have better stuff than I.

Re: XBMC running on Raspberry Pi

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:42 pm
by jamesh
Not sure what licencing that has to do with 'locked proprietary information'. Can you explain?

Re: XBMC running on Raspberry Pi

Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:32 am
by reallynotnick
Michael said:


Its actually the other way around.  If you want to downmix the Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus or DTS audio to stereo on the R.Pi, you need the appropriate license.  Similarly, if you want to downmix/transcode Dolby Digital Plus or DTS to Dolby Digital you need appropriate licenses.

If all you want to do is pass-through the (encoded) audio stream on HDMI or S/PDIF you don't need codec licenses.  However if your receiving device doesn't support that audio format (most TVs don't support DD+ or DTS), you won't get any sound at all.


Well will be able to decode DD and DTS on the CPU? Programs like VLC can't be paying for licenses to decode those. I just looked an my TV only supports DD, so I'm hoping for a solution to play back DTS audio.

Re: XBMC running on Raspberry Pi

Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:54 am
by Jessie
iamchrismoran said:


Oh. I didn't realize that. Well... more to my argument against locked proprietary information...


Aside from indie releases what kinds of commercial media dosn't use closed proprietary codecs or containers of some kind?  Or is this some type of attempt at trolling?

Will there be a software decode of these various proprietary codecs?  Who knows, possibly if someone reverse-engeneers it and offeres it up for download or possibly if someone creates some for-proffit software that has a DD and DTS paid licenses.

Re: XBMC running on Raspberry Pi

Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:06 am
by iamchrismoran
Jessie said:


iamchrismoran said:


Oh. I didn't realize that. Well... more to my argument against locked proprietary information...


Aside from indie releases what kinds of commercial media dosn't use closed proprietary codecs or containers of some kind?  Or is this some type of attempt at trolling?

Will there be a software decode of these various proprietary codecs?  Who knows, possibly if someone reverse-engeneers it and offeres it up for download or possibly if someone creates some for-proffit software that has a DD and DTS paid licenses.



Not trolling (ouch). Just reminds me of the days when Frauhaufer were actively trying to get everyone to pay for the ability to play MP3 files, even though it had become ubiquitous.. or Compuserv with gifs.

That said, I'd guess most would just rip their content into a codec/wrapper that is supported by the more open source players.

Re: XBMC running on Raspberry Pi

Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:16 pm
by nichobb
Just needs ports of below (or equivalents - I picked for open source, ability to add scripts) for a killer Internet PVR media centre:
SABnzbd (Usenet client... guess úTorrent for alternative)
Handbrake (I know speed issue until gpu taken advantage of)
Sickbeard (auto scheduler for TV shows)

I plan to convert and compile these myself, with my current knowledge (significantly less than negligible) I think it"ll take me about 1-3 years so hope someone actually does this and documents.

Re: XBMC running on Raspberry Pi

Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:54 pm
by Gumik
I really need that R-Pi version with Digital Audio showed on the  last XMBC news, which one is it ?

What is the maximum bitrate supported, we see that Big Buck Bunny is around 10mb/s but does it work for let’s say 50mb/s ( which should cover everything including Blu-ray ) or is it too much ?

Same question but with streaming the media over network, I'm somewhat concerned about this because I think full ethernet speed ( 100mb/s) would use at least 50-60% processor on its own, so  with getting audio ( DTS/DTS core or Dolby Digital ) in passthrough mode over HDMI/SPDIF, can it be done ?

Re: XBMC running on Raspberry Pi

Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:33 pm
by frying_fish
nichobb said:


Just needs ports of below (or equivalents - I picked for open source, ability to add scripts) for a killer Internet PVR media centre:
SABnzbd (Usenet client... guess úTorrent for alternative)
Handbrake (I know speed issue until gpu taken advantage of)
Sickbeard (auto scheduler for TV shows)

SAB and Sickbeard are both just python programs, so you would just need to make sure to get the latest versions, and have the appropriate python dependencies. Not much compiling needed there (especially if you put debian on the Pi then there are even deb packages for most of those).  I would wonder as to how much they would affect the performance given there isn't a large amount of RAM, or a fast processor.  I would also wonder how slow processing would be on large files with having to write out lots since there isn't much RAM for processing.

I think what is interesting is what licenses will have been paid for and thus what can actually be played (I know h.264 and AAC seem to be sorted)


Re: XBMC running on Raspberry Pi

Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:33 pm
by reallynotnick
Gumik said:


I really need that R-Pi version with Digital Audio showed on the  last XMBC news, which one is it ?


There isn't one, both Raspberry Pis have HDMI and an analog 3.5mm stereo audio jack.


What is the maximum bitrate supported, we see that Big Buck Bunny is around 10mb/s but does it work for let’s say 50mb/s ( which should cover everything including Blu-ray ) or is it too much ?


It is supposed to be able to do 40Mb/s just fine.


Same question but with streaming the media over network, I'm somewhat concerned about this because I think full ethernet speed ( 100mb/s) would use at least 50-60% processor on its own, so  with getting audio ( DTS/DTS core or Dolby Digital ) in passthrough mode over HDMI/SPDIF, can it be done ?


Where did you make up those numbers from? Ethernet doesn't use that much processing power. Also passthrough should be supported over HDMI and again there is no SPDIF.

Re: XBMC running on Raspberry Pi

Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:12 pm
by Gumik
reallynotnick said:


There isn't one, both Raspberry Pis have HDMI and an analog 3.5mm stereo audio jack.


Well that's what I thought, too bad It must be some sort of alpha card.


It is supposed to be able to do 40Mb/s just fine.


Ah that's nice !


Where did you make up those numbers from? Ethernet doesn't use that much processing power. Also passthrough should be supported over HDMI and again there is no SPDIF.


Well Ethernet doesn't use much processing power but the CPU doesn't have much processing power either. Wonder if someone could give us the % used with a file transfer at full speed. From dbsx on the cubox forums :

"rsync flattens my 100Mbit network with the cubox at 50% CPU, which is not bad."
So I guessed it should be around 50-60% on the R-Pi since the cubox's CPU is more powerful.

Re: XBMC running on Raspberry Pi

Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:49 pm
by fireraisr
There has never been a digital audio port. The guy in the video mistakenly said the composite video port was digital audio.