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John_Spikowski
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:40 pm

Richard,

Glad to see you here on the forum!

Please serve up a code challenge you think is appropriate.

hippy
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:05 pm

From the "Why Avoid BASIC on RPi?" thread, which I suspect is likely to get locked or see posts culled if ScriptBasic keeps getting discussed there ...
plugwash wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:39 pm
Sorry but when I look at both the official website and the wiki what I see looks like a half-finished toy project. For example I can't seem to find any documention for example of how subroutines and functions work. If such basic language features are not documented then I simply can't take your language seriously. Then there is the fact that a bunch of the documention is only available in chm format. Then there is the fact that when I follow the forum link from the home page or the wiki I get a blank white page.
ScriptBasic wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:46 am
@plugwash,

Thanks for your review. The forums are loaded with ScriptBasic examples. I can assure you that ScriptBasic isn't a toy.
Plugwash does have a point; much of the website is a complete mess with many links not working and it being difficult to find what one is looking for.
ScriptBasic wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:50 am
Now where was those SB install instructions, that's going on next.
If SB means ScriptBasic then the runtime, doc pdf and ext. module examples were posted on the Off Topic board. The AppImage and DED on the ScriptBasic.org forum were built on the RPi 3 B and won't run on the Zero.

You will probably want to build SB from scratch so visit the sandbox (Gitlab CE repo) and use the cleanup branch.
What "Off Topic" board ? Where exactly is this AppImage and DEB ? Where is this Gitlab CE repo ?

I was trying to find the sources. On the download page there are links to Unix and Win32 sources, scriba-v2.0b1-source.tar.gz and scriba-v2.0b1-source.zip; neither links to anything.

Go to the SourceForge page and there seems to have been little activity there, the sources are an earlier v2.0b0 version.

Even the scriptbasic.com home page lists 2.0.0 as the last version, and that claims not to have been updated since 2010.

When downloading the Pi .deb I couldn't find where it was hosted to use wget on my Pi, had to follow a forum link to an attachment, save that to my PC then copy it accross to my Pi.

And, using frames or whatever on the home page means the URL never changes as the site is navigated which makes it almost impossible to link to any particular page on the site.

I do think you are going to have to sort that mess out if you want ScriptBasic to be taken as seriously as it seems to merit.

A good starting point would be providing the explicit link to exactly where the latest version of ScriptBasic source is hosted.

And, if you want to have people try ScriptBasic, you really need to supply an explicit link to where the .deb is hosted and can be downloaded from.
Last edited by hippy on Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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John_Spikowski
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:18 pm

I'll get that posted on the RaspberryBASIC.org forum as a reference.

Remember ScriptBasic is an open source project and I'm contributor just like everyone else. I do my best in my spare time to move ScriptBasic along.

If you don't like the way something is done, feel free to jump in an fix it.

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RichardRussell
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:20 pm

ScriptBasic wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:40 pm
Please serve up a code challenge you think is appropriate.
Don't tempt me! The trouble with code challenges (apart from trivial and largely meaningless ones) is that they are likely to favour the language(s) preferred by whoever sets the challenge. So I'd inevitably choose something that would favour BBC BASIC, such as accelerated 3D graphics or shader programming, and then (quite reasonably) you'd call foul because not all languages support them.

For the same reason I'd also want to stipulate that the code challenge must run on Windows, MacOS, Linux, Android and iOS which I suspect you might also have cause to object to! :evil:

hippy
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:24 pm

ScriptBasic wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:18 pm
I'll get that posted on the RaspberryBASIC.org forum as a reference.

Remember ScriptBasic is an open source project and I'm contributor just like everyone else. I do my best in my spare time to move ScriptBasic along.

If you don't like the way something is done, feel free to jump in an fix it.
Now I'm confused.

I'm not sure what RaspberryBASIC.org has to do with ScriptBasic, why you would do that rather than fix the ScriptBasic stuff. Why would I go there and not to the official ScriptBasic home site ?

And how exactly would I jump in and fix things ?

You are "ScriptBasic" so I presumed it would be your job to fix things. Maybe I've misunderstood what your involvement is with ScriptBasic as a product.

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John_Spikowski
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:27 pm

For the same reason I'd also want to stipulate that the code challenge must run on Windows, MacOS, Linux, Android and iOS which I suspect you might also have reason to object to!
ScriptBasic runs on all the platforms you mentioned and more. I would like to see any challenges on this forum be RPi specific.

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RichardRussell
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:32 pm

ScriptBasic wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:18 pm
I'll get that posted on the RaspberryBASIC.org forum as a reference.
That's a new one on me; it appears to have only two posts in total! Is it intended to be just for Script Basic or also other BASICs that can run on the RPi?

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John_Spikowski
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:36 pm

I don't like people with their hand out telling me what a crappy job I'm doing. I pickup up the ScriptBasic project in 2006 when Peter Verhas the author moved on to be a Java guru. I spend all my spare time managing the SB project and promoting its use. If you would like to sponsor the project I can then afford a new set of clothes.

Heater
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:05 pm

ScriptBasic,
I don't like people with their hand out telling me what a crappy job I'm doing.
I don't think anyone here has their "hand out". I presume you mean as in "begging"

I would not dare to say you are doing a "crappy job". I have respect for those that can write language systems and maintain projects.

However I think there are some expectations for open source projects now a days:

1. The project has a name. Just one name. Usually there is a project web site that can be found with that name.

2. The source code is available easily. On github, gitlab, bitbucket etc. Not just release versions but that is where collaborative development happens.

3. The project web site and/or the git repository page clearly states what it is and how to build and install it.

4. More detailed documentation is linked to and easy to find.

I don't think I'm the first one to be confused and lost by the hints given here as to where to find ScriptBasic and install/run it.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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RichardRussell
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:33 pm

Heater wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:05 pm
Not just release versions but that is where collaborative development happens.
That presupposes there is any collaborative development! Currently there are only release versions at the BBC BASIC GitHub repository but I would be delighted for somebody else to contribute.

Heater
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:59 pm

I guess anyone can write some code and publish it. Things like github, gitlab, bitbucket make this very easy.

That does not mean to say that hordes of people are going to be clamoring to download and use it.

Let alone standing up to collaborate on the project.

I have been amazed that people do actually turn up to report bugs, suggest fixes, make pull requests for my humble efforts on github. I never imagined anyone but me would ever be interested.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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RichardRussell
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:36 pm

Heater wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:59 pm
That does not mean to say that hordes of people are going to be clamoring to download and use it. Let alone standing up to collaborate on the project.
Indeed not, especially when (as in my case) it's only been Open Source for a few months after having been a proprietary product for the previous 36 years, if you include its predecessors! I was persuaded to publish the source (of the cross-platform version) because age and infirmity mean I'm not going to be in a position to maintain it myself for much longer. I don't actually need collaborators, although they would be welcome.

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RichardRussell
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:45 pm

ScriptBasic wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:27 pm
ScriptBasic runs on all the platforms you mentioned and more.
For clarity, do you mean somebody could build it for Android and iOS if they were prepared to put in the effort, or are precompiled application binaries (i.e. a .apk for Android and a .ipa for iOS) available for download, like BBC BASIC? If so, where can I find them?

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John_Spikowski
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:20 pm

RichardRussell wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:45 pm
ScriptBasic wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:27 pm
ScriptBasic runs on all the platforms you mentioned and more.
For clarity, do you mean somebody could build it for Android and iOS if they were prepared to put in the effort, or are precompiled application binaries (i.e. a .apk for Android and a .ipa for iOS) available for download, like BBC BASIC? If so, where can I find them?
AIR is maintaining the iOS build as I don't use Apple products. I did a build for Android Linux 5 years ago but no one seemed intested in a console BASIC on their phone.

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John_Spikowski
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:35 pm

I just recieved my first RPi less than a month ago. I now have 3. (Zero, 3 B and today a 3 B+) I'm trying to get ScriptBasic introduced to the Raspberry Pi community as fast as I can. I hope to have a central location resource for users and to build ScriptBasic this weekend.

Sorry about being cranky as it was long day.

hippy
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:46 pm

ScriptBasic wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:36 pm
I pickup up the ScriptBasic project in 2006 when Peter Verhas the author moved on to be a Java guru. I spend all my spare time managing the SB project and promoting its use.
Thanks for the explanation.

If I've read it right; ScriptBasic is effectively 'abandonware' since Peter moved on, but it still has its users and advocates, has yourself and others still keeping it alive, and you are actively pushing it for use with a Pi, have a build which runs on a Pi.

No problem with that, and well done, you do deserve credit for what you are doing.

The problem is that 'your ScriptBasic' seems to be at odds with what is ScriptBasic publicly; they are no longer the same thing, the public site doesn't relate to what you and others have been doing, other than through its forum.

I am guessing that's because you don't have full control over the scriptbasic.com site. If you do have full control then I believe my previous comments stand; you have done a great job with ScriptBasic itself, but not in making it accessible, making it easy for people to get on-board with now it's targeting the Pi.

If you don't have control; that needs to be resolved IMO. If you cannot gain control then I would believe the best way to proceed is to 'fork it', make it a new, active product, get it alive again.

I would suggest dropping the old ScriptBasic moniker; call what you have now EnhancedScriptBasic, RaspberryScriptBasic, or RaspberryBasic, anything to distinguish the new from the old, and change "scripba" to something else "esb", "rsb", "rb" or whatever suits what you're calling it. That way there's no confusion over what's being referenced; the active product, not the old 'abandonware'.

I'm guessing you must have forked it anyway from what's on the old site, so it's really just a matter of renaming, creating a new GitHub or SourceForge page, and pointing people to that. Ideally registering a new site for the new product, along with a new forum. And by all means acknowledge it's heritage, the work of Peter and others; it would be wrong not to.

And please accept that no one is disparaging what you've done, the effort you've put in, your commitment to it. But, if you want people to come along for the ride, you have got to make it as easy and as painless for them as it can be, and it currently isn't.

You have captured people's interest. How long that lasts for and what comes of that no can tell. But not long and not much if it's a matter of being too frustrating would seem a great loss. I fell at the second hurdle; finding the source code. That doesn't bode well.
ScriptBasic wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:35 pm
I hope to have a central location resource for users and to build ScriptBasic this weekend.
That sounds great and would seem to reflect my thinking above ( written before I saw your post ).

Don't feel too pressured; the main problem was comprehending where things stood. That's clearer now. Heading in the right direction is what counts.
ScriptBasic wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:35 pm
Sorry about being cranky as it was long day.
We all have those :P

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John_Spikowski
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:24 pm

If I've read it right; ScriptBasic is effectively 'abandonware' since Peter moved on,
No. you read it wrong. I have over 15 years invested managing the the ScriptBasic project. That doesn't sound like ABANDONWARE to me or the other developers.

The ScriptBasic.com site is active for historical reasons. It's no longer maintained. The ScriptBasic.org site is the official domain for the project.

ejolson
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:35 pm

hippy wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:46 pm
I would suggest dropping the old ScriptBasic moniker; call what you have now EnhancedScriptBasic, RaspberryScriptBasic, or RaspberryBasic, anything to distinguish the new from the old, and change "scripba" to something else "esb", "rsb", "rb" or whatever suits what you're calling it.
The non-updated .com website does make things confusing. How about naming the new version modbasic for the extension modules and because it is modern?

Heater
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:36 pm

I'm all for keeping the same name for the same language if possible. On whatever platform. To avoid confusion.

I guess there might be a conflict between the name of the language and the name of the implementers/implementations. For example we have C/C++, the languages, available from GCC, LLVM and many others. I have no idea how this works in BASIC land.

sourceforge of course should be avoided.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

Heater
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:43 pm

ejolson,
How about naming the new version modbasic for the extension modules and because it is modern?
Or call it "YAFB".

You can probably guess what I mean by that.

I don't mean to be derogatory there. If the thing has a name that has been used and known for years on many platforms why not stick with it?
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

Heater
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:51 pm

Oh boy, I just checked scriptbasic.com

There I find "Although ScriptBasic is open source its source code quality is above that of the average open source project."

Really, that whole site needs taking down if you want to play in the open source world.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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John_Spikowski
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:55 pm

I should have taken the URL when Peter offered it to me in the beginning. I felt a org prefix would be better for an open source project.

Peter is a great programmer but isn't skilled at running an open source project.

ejolson
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:57 pm

Heater wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:51 pm
Oh boy, I just checked scriptbasic.com

There I find "Although ScriptBasic is open source its source code quality is above that of the average open source project."

Really, that whole site needs taking down if you want to play in the open source world.
That's the issue. Peter owns the .com site and appears not to be changing it. Moreover, when an open-source project is forked, it's reasonable to change the name so there is no confusion about the original and the derivative.

On the other hand, of he's willing to give the domain to someone else, then maybe not.

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John_Spikowski
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:12 pm

I didn't fork ScriptBasic, I took over management and development of the project.

Peter Verhas is still a developer resource for the project. He steps in when AIR or I need claflifation of code.
Last edited by John_Spikowski on Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Heater
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:17 pm

This is very confusing.

Is this an actual project? Is there a project owner, a single source of truth, a main repository? Are there developers collaborating to that end?

If not, if all that "scriptbasic" stuff is essentially a one man project, as it seems, and now dormant then I change my advice.

Take control, fork it, call it "YAFB" or whatever.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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