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RichardRussell
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:01 am

rpdom wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:57 am
That is a very bold statement. I see almost nothing but x86 PC systems almost everywhere I go.
I assume David's comment was tongue-in-cheek. He must know that Windows is by far the most popular OS for desktops and laptops (87.6% share according to Wikipedia).

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rpdom
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:04 am

Heater wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:29 am
All wrong. It should be:

Code: Select all

printf("hello, world\n");
As in the original publication in "The C Programming Language." from 1978.
Page 7, in my copy at least.

Heater
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:07 am

It's hard to tell from DavidS' track record of wild unsubstantiated claims. Have they all been a joke on us?
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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rpdom
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:08 am

RichardRussell wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:01 am
rpdom wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:57 am
That is a very bold statement. I see almost nothing but x86 PC systems almost everywhere I go.
I assume David's comment was tongue-in-cheek. He must know that Windows is by far the most popular OS for desktops and laptops (87.6% share according to Wikipedia).
Quite possibly. In my last job there was one Windows laptop that was used for testing, and the rest were all Apples or Linux.

At home I have two Linux laptops and my wife has a Windows laptop (only because her online games don't work on Linux). That's as well as all the headless Pi.

Heater
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:10 am

rpdom,

Thank you.

It's just as well we get references to our sacred texts as correct as possible.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

hippy
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:40 pm

Heater wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:14 am
There is no attraction to RISC OS for me. It is incapable of doing anything I commonly want to do.
My experience is different. RISC OS was entirely capable of doing what I was eager to do, which was to deliver internet content to a TV. That came in the form of the Bush IBX100 and friends - http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org ... ernet.html

Given how many of those I still have in the loft I possibly have more RISC OS based systems than even some RISC OS fans :D

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rpdom
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:15 pm

hippy wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:40 pm
Heater wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:14 am
There is no attraction to RISC OS for me. It is incapable of doing anything I commonly want to do.
My experience is different. RISC OS was entirely capable of doing what I was eager to do, which was to deliver internet content to a TV. That came in the form of the Bush IBX100 and friends - http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org ... ernet.html

Given how many of those I still have in the loft I possibly have more RISC OS based systems than even some RISC OS fans :D
Oooh, I had one of those. £20 for an internet box that interfaced to my TV with IR keyboard, SCART lead and batteries all included. Especially as it was quite hackable. PS2 Keyboard and mouse socket were trivial to add. It had a parallel printer port that supported a iomega 100MB zip drive and would start up from that drive giving you the full RISC OS desktop or just command prompt if you wanted with BASIC and everything available. It was also easy to change the dial up config so it didn't use the expensive default connection. RAM was upgradable as well. :)

Heater
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:18 pm

hippy,
My experience is different. RISC OS was entirely capable of doing what I was eager to do, which was to deliver internet content to a TV. That came in the form of the Bush IBX100 and friends - http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org ... ernet.html
Interesting, I had never heard of the Bush IBX100 and friends. Probably because I was not in Blighty at the time and they only managed to sell a handful of them. Didn't everyone have Windows 98 PC's for their internet cravings by then? We were all on Linux for 4 or 5 years already.

I guess we should pay attention to the word "was" there. Are you still connecting to the net via POTS modem and driving PAL TV now a days?
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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rpdom
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:35 pm

Heater wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:18 pm
hippy,
My experience is different. RISC OS was entirely capable of doing what I was eager to do, which was to deliver internet content to a TV. That came in the form of the Bush IBX100 and friends - http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org ... ernet.html
Interesting, I had never heard of the Bush IBX100 and friends. Probably because I was not in Blighty at the time and they only managed to sell a handful of them. Didn't everyone have Windows 98 PC's for their internet cravings by then? We were all on Linux for 4 or 5 years already.

I guess we should pay attention to the word "was" there. Are you still connecting to the net via POTS modem and driving PAL TV now a days?
It was a long time ago. I had either a W95 or W98SE PC at the time. I can't remember which. The ability to write any software at all on them was limited unless you paid much money. I didn't get into Linux for a few years after that (after a brief dabble with my own Unix server). I know which I prefer now.

hippy
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:55 pm

Heater wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:18 pm
I guess we should pay attention to the word "was" there. Are you still connecting to the net via POTS modem and driving PAL TV now a days?
That "was" existed until fairly recently for me. I never used it for actually accessing the internet just serving up local pages; my What's on TV listings, it was a 'super EPG' with primitive 'AI' learning, filtering and delivering recommendations tailored to my own tastes.

That did mean having to use an analogue PABX to handle the PTSN connection, a modem, and dial-in network server on the PC pretending to be 'the internet'. That was backed by a home-grown server written in VB6 and that does indeed run on my 98SE system, fitted with a fanless PSU, still in place today, integrated into the rest of my LAN.

Getting the display to the TV used an old analogue satellite receiver which put its AV input on a separate RF channel alongside the other channels my cable modem TV receiver delivered. Finding What's On just meant going to the right channel.

It was only when I upgraded to Virgin Media's TiVo offering about six years ago that it became largely unnecessary to know what was on TV, when and where.

As kludgy as it was, and had to be, it served me well, performed admirably and usefully. It's a lovely and solid bit of kit built by PACE. It failed commercially because it tried to tap and monetize a market people weren't interested in, much as Amstrad's [email protected] failed at doing. It came at that time when most people only had dial-up networking and home internet hadn't really taken off. As a product it was both ahead of its time and way behind it by the time it could have been successful.

I would love to create a more modern version using a Pi but I haven't found anything yet which matches the ANT Fresco browser experience for TV browsing use. And, because my TV is a little slow switching inputs, I'd really like something which could do HDMI overlay for 'instant access' but that seems big money and the whole thing isn't so necessary these days.

Maybe if ANT Fresco runs under RISC OS on a Pi, and someone is willing enough to guide me through getting that all to work, maybe I'll be running RISC OS on my Pi. But that's probably for some other thread than this.

All-in it still stands as my most successful and most useful project. About a decade's worth of daily usefulness for an outlay of about £50 plus a whole lot fun, trials and tribulations, getting it to work and improving things.

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John Spikowski
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:10 pm

David,

Maybe it would be better to get ScriptBasic and the Brandy extension module running on Raspbian first so you have a working model.

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DavidS
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:44 pm

RichardRussell wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:01 am
rpdom wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:57 am
That is a very bold statement. I see almost nothing but x86 PC systems almost everywhere I go.
I assume David's comment was tongue-in-cheek. He must know that Windows is by far the most popular OS for desktops and laptops (87.6% share according to Wikipedia).
Yes it is a bit toung in cheek. I know that x86 based Computers currently have an unreasonable market share, and that M$-Windows succeded at its deceptive marketing tactics in the early through mid-late 1990's (by requiring manufactures to bundle Windows with all systems they sold if they wanted to license the later versions of MS-DOS).

I do not think MS would have stood a chance without those deceptive marketing stratagies, there were way better Graphical Windowing Systems that ran on MS-DOS compatible systems long before MS badgered licensing with Windows 3.1 (PC-GEOS, DPT, GEM, and a few others I am not thinking of at the moment). In a fair fight I feel that any of the alternatives on the x86 would have beat the socks off of MS-Windows. Though that is all history, and we have the federal court cases here in the USA as the memory of that deception.

Though it is true that I almost never see a system actually running Windows. I think the marketing numbers now days are counting the machines that are sold with MS-Windows License, and end up getting a different OS installed. Just about every system I see is running Linux in most buisnesses and homes (hospitals and government offices being the exceptions, they run Windows).
Last edited by DavidS on Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DavidS
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:46 pm

John Spikowski wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:10 pm
David,

Maybe it would be better to get ScriptBasic and the Brandy extension module running on Raspbian first so you have a working model.
You may be correct. Though I did get far enough to know that I am missing some of the source files. I think there may still be some bugs in the RISC OS port of SimpleGIT (sgit command).

I will also know that I have the complete source tree once I get it built on Raspbian.
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:55 pm

Really simple

1. Run setup

2. Run mkdist.sh passing the name / location of where you what to run out of

3. Run source sb.sh

4. Copy the bbc.so to your modules directory and bbc.bas to the include directory. Copy libbbc.so to your system library path.

You should be able to run any of the Brandy examples I posted.

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Re: ScriptBasic

Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:06 pm

John Spikowski wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:35 am
How soon will Script Basic be able to serve web pages under RISC OS running on an A1 instance?


If RISC OS doesn't support pthread then the sbhttpd appllication server is off the table.
There are many other HTTP servers out there, including a good number that run on RISC OS (and only on RISC OS).
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:08 pm

Heater wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:29 am
All wrong. It should be:

Code: Select all

printf("hello, world\n");
As in the original publication in "The C Programming Language." from 1978.

Note the lack of capitalization and exclamation mark.

Of course the original was written in B like so:

Code: Select all

main( ) {
 extern a, b, c;
 putchar(a); putchar(b); putchar(c); putchar('!*n');
}
 
a 'hell';
b 'o, w';
c 'orld';
Thank you for that. Never played around with B much.
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:10 pm

RichardRussell wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:55 am
DavidS wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:11 am
As far as I know there is no Brandy BASIC on RISC OS.
Of course there is, I'm astonished you didn't know. Indeed at the Brandy home page it states that the RISC OS implementation "is the most complete version of the interpreter... It runs under RISC OS 3, 4 and 5. Versions are supplied to run 'out of the box' on older machines and on Iyonixes".
Oh kool. I did not know that.

Thank you for the information. Kind of surprising beings as it is a clone of BASIC VI, though then again I guess it makes sence to compare it on the same OS.
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DavidS
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:13 pm

John Spikowski wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:55 pm
Really simple

1. Run setup

2. Run mkdist.sh passing the name / location of where you what to run out of

3. Run source sb.sh

4. Copy the bbc.so to your modules directory and bbc.bas to the include directory. Copy libbbc.so to your system library path.

You should be able to run any of the Brandy examples I posted.
I will attempt to do it without the shell scripts. I am not very good with *n*x style CLI shells. Give me an Amiga or RISC OS and the CLI shells make good sense, I can handle the messed up DOS/Windows CLI shells, *n*x is just so far outside of what I am accustomed to that I generally only use it as a command launcher.

As a CLI I can use the *n*x style shells, though for scripts I am completely lost.

Thank you for that though.

To bad we do not have an Amiga CLI clone for Linux, or at least a DOS COMMAND.xxx clone for Linux (not OS emulation, just a command compatible shell). Yes there will always be the diffference in the root not being per storage volume.
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Heater
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:32 pm

hippy,
That "was" existed until fairly recently for me.
Interesting.

Unfortunately I have no idea what you are talking about in the rest of your post. Something about watching television as far as I can make out.

It's great that it worked out.

I was thinking more about using a computer, you know, as a computer.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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John Spikowski
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:41 pm

Since the GUI Editor code challenge isn't attracting much interest, how about an extension module code challenge?

I'm trying to get a broad enough set of extension modules assembled to build a release that a popular Linux distribution would include.

As Peter Verhas said, ScriptBasiic was designed as an embeddable scripting API. Peter's example of use (scriba) was so well done it took on its own life and became a cross platform BASIC with unlimited expansion capabilities.

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Re: ScriptBasic

Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:57 pm

If you need DOS on Linux, I use dosemu.

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DavidS
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:00 pm

@John Spikowski:
Well I am about to switch over to Linux and get back to it. The format of your extensions looks interesting to me. Is there a means to implement them that you may have thought of that does not use shared dynamic libraries?

You actually got me to look at possibly getting an AROS port done after the Linux side before going for the RISC OS port. AROS is a clone of Amiga OS, including the Microkernel called EXEC, and the best way of doing shared libraries of any OS I have ever seen, not to mention a very well thought out over all system archetechure as a whole (effecient message passing on a preemptive multitasking microkernel based OS, with good uniform system resource management through extensions of EXEC Lists).

There is a Linux hosted version of AROS that will kind of sufice until we have a good ARM AROS Port for the RPi.
Last edited by DavidS on Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:03 pm

John Spikowski wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:57 pm
If you need DOS on Linux, I use dosemu.
I said as a shell for Linux not as an emu.
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John Spikowski
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:19 pm

Works well for me. I'm not so picky when it comes to recreating the past.

Sitting on the edge of my chair waiting to see something happen.

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DavidS
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Re: ScriptBasic

Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:34 pm

John Spikowski wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:19 pm
Works well for me. I'm not so picky when it comes to recreating the past.
To each there own. I also did not know that dosemu was around ARM Linux.

Though I do note that for running Linux programs dosemu is not very useful. It is the syntax of the shell that interests me.

My preferred CLI is of course that of Amiga OS, MorphOS, AROS. It is somewhat modeled after TripOS (which at one time was a big competitor of Unix).

Though moving on, I am back in Linux and about to grab the ScriptBasic code again and do a build adding the Brandy BASIC extensions module that you provided. Hopefully will only take a few minutes, as Linux seems a bit more of the kind of target ScriptBasic was written for.
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