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Re: ScriptBasic

Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:43 pm
by DavidS
John Spikowski wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:39 pm
David,

If you get ScriptBasic running on RISC OS it will confirm Peter's decision to go ANSI C with his object magic was the right choice.
I can already tell you it was the correct choice. A little more to go before it is running, though it will be.

The biggest issue is path names in the source tree. A few other smaller issues.

Re: ScriptBasic

Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:44 pm
by John Spikowski
Heater wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:36 pm
Hello John, welcome to the forum.
🐣

Hello World!

Re: ScriptBasic

Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:55 pm
by DavidS
John Spikowski wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:44 pm
Heater wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:36 pm
Hello John, welcome to the forum.
🐣

Hello World!
:) LOL :)
Should that be:
PRINT "Hello World!"

:)

Re: ScriptBasic

Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 8:01 pm
by John Spikowski
CHRIP "Hello World!" ;)

Re: ScriptBasic

Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 8:04 pm
by ejolson
Heater wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:02 pm
Wow, what?

I once designed a board with an 8086 and 8087 on it. Had a whole tube of 8087s. No idea what happened to them.

There was also space for an 8089 IO coprocessor. That is so rare we never actually got hold of one when they were current!
If any those 8087's show up, I would be very interested!

Re: ScriptBasic

Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:52 pm
by John Spikowski
Are there any other BASIC languages running on RISC OS other than Brandy?

Was RISC OS the alternative to Windows at one time?

Who is mostly likely to be excited about ScriptBasic running on RISC OS? Is this more of a personal challenge then anything else?

Re: ScriptBasic

Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:29 am
by Heater
John Spikowski,
Was RISC OS the alternative to Windows at one time?
Odd you should phrase it that way around. Given that RISC OS dates from 1987 and there was no usable version of Windows until 1990. Which was still basically lipstick on a pig.

Remember also that at the time the RISC OS based Acorn Archimedes was the fastest personal computer one could buy at the time.
Who is mostly likely to be excited about ScriptBasic running on RISC OS? Is this more of a personal challenge then anything else?
How could anyone know given that a vanishingly small number of people have ever heard of RISC OS or ScriptBasic and even less have used them.

But does it matter, many great softwares have grown up out someones personal challenge. If it's fun why not do it. Perhaps other will want to join in the fun later.

Re: ScriptBasic

Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:36 am
by John Spikowski
Good answers!

What does the existing library of Brandy Basic programs look like on RISC OS?

Do you think you can make use of the extension module API on RISC OS?

Re: ScriptBasic

Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:45 am
by John Spikowski
Which was still basically lipstick on a pig.
Nothing has changed.

David,

For you, what is the major attraction to RISC OS?

Re: ScriptBasic

Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:11 am
by DavidS
John Spikowski wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:52 pm
Are there any other BASIC languages running on RISC OS other than Brandy?
There is BBC BASIC V/VI AKA ARM BASIC. Not Brandy. As far as I know there is no Brandy BASIC on RISC OS.

BBC BASIC V/VI are builtin to RISC OS, and are the same language. As such other BASIC interpreters or compilers for other BASIC languages never had a chance on RISC OS, especially as ARM BASIC is already so fast as an interpreted language.
Was RISC OS the alternative to Windows at one time?
Not even close. Windows historicaly ran on only x86 CPU's on top of DOS. RISC OS has only ever ran on ARM CPU's, and indeed was the very first available OS for ARM based computers in 1987.

They do not run on the same computers, so RISC OS is NOT an alternative for Windows and never was.
Who is mostly likely to be excited about ScriptBasic running on RISC OS? Is this more of a personal challenge then anything else?
No one is going to be excited about a slower BASIC than we have running on RISC OS. It is a personal challenge, as well as an aid to get more code running on RISC OS.

We already have a much faster BASIC builtin to RISC OS, so ScriptBasic is only going to give us more programs written in a different version of BASIC. As well as showing that it can be done (porting ScriptBasic to a totally alian OS).

Re: ScriptBasic

Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:14 am
by Heater
John Spikowski,

Edit: I see now I'm answering a question that was not directed at me. Oops sorry...
For you, what is the major attraction to RISC OS?
There is no attraction to RISC OS for me. It is incapable of doing anything I commonly want to do.

Despite what I said above I have never actually seen RISC OS running on an actual machine. Not even in an emulator. It was something I lusted for back in 1987, especially as it ran on the worlds first properly architected personal computer processor, not to mention fastest. Sadly it was too expensive for me to think about, as was an IBM PC at the time.

I might one day spin up RISC OS out of curiosity but I mostly think it's better not to. The experience will not be what it would have been in 1987. Better to leave it as a fond memory of a dream long ago. Sigh...

Re: ScriptBasic

Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:16 am
by DavidS
John Spikowski wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:36 am
Good answers!

What does the existing library of Brandy Basic programs look like on RISC OS?
None as far as I know.

Now BBC BASIC V/VI (which Brandy BASIC is a clone of) programs for RISC OS there are many thousands. From simple toys to full blown WISWIG Word Processors, Spread Sheets, 3D-Games, 3D modelling programs, FTP Clients with a GUI for the interface, and everything inbtetween. Pretty much half of the software for RISC OS is written in BBC BASIC V/VI, including many a desktop Windowing applications.
Do you think you can make use of the extension module API on RISC OS?
Yes, easily.

Re: ScriptBasic

Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:18 am
by John Spikowski
My interest in this is watching a talented programmer with vision say, why not?

Porting Apps to RISC OS

David is a contributor in this thread.

Re: ScriptBasic

Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:25 am
by DavidS
John Spikowski wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:45 am
David,

For you, what is the major attraction to RISC OS?
Well it is the Operating system I have used more than any other for the last 31 or 32 years. For part of that time I also used Amiga OS, and even Atari TOS a good bit, and even played with Linux, MiNiX, and BSD. Though while Amiga OS was the best of the Operating Systems (still is), RISC OS had the correct combination of usability and it runs on the ARM CPU (loving assembly language this was a big thing for me even before the ARM CPU went beyond Acorn Desktop Computers).

In retrospect I likely would have used the Amiga OS more if I had known how things would later evolve. And I will likely use AROS ARM just as much as RISC OS once it is available in a usable form on the Raspberry Pi series running native (not Linux hosted). Then I will finally have the perfect combination of the best CPU under a clone of the best designed Operating System to date.

Please no flame wars here. I know that "best designed Operating System" is very much subjective, and I know that many may have other opinions. This is just a responce to a question about my personal view.

Re: ScriptBasic

Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:25 am
by Heater
David,
...especially as ARM BASIC is already so fast as an interpreted language.
Recent results from the Fibo Challenge show that "little bit faster" might be a more accurate description.
They do not run on the same computers, so RISC OS is NOT an alternative for Windows and never was.
At the time it was not totally clear that the crappy IBM PC and Windows was going to sweep the board and dominate the world. That is after all why Atari and Commodore were still in the race with their offerings.

So yes, RISC OS was an alternative to the fetal Windows. It's just that one had to buy into a different processor architecture. Which was not such a strange idea at the time given that there had been a history of all kind of architectures offered already in the short time personal computers had been available.

Re: ScriptBasic

Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:37 am
by DavidS
Heater wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:25 am
David,
...especially as ARM BASIC is already so fast as an interpreted language.
Recent results from the Fibo Challenge show that "little bit faster" might be a more accurate description.
They do not run on the same computers, so RISC OS is NOT an alternative for Windows and never was.
At the time it was not totally clear that the crappy IBM PC and Windows was going to sweep the board and dominate the world. That is after all why Atari and Commodore were still in the race with their offerings.
It still is not clear tha tthe PC and compatible will ever do anywhere near as well as other systems. I very rarely see an IBM/PC or other x86 based system in real world use. You see them all over the stores, though you never see them in anyones home or office.
So yes, RISC OS was an alternative to the fetal Windows. It's just that one had to buy into a different processor architecture. Which was not such a strange idea at the time given that there had been a history of all kind of architectures offered already in the short time personal computers had been available.
From that point of view I guess I could understand the statement that Windows was an alternative to RISC OS (not the other way around), and a fairly poor alternative at that.

In 1987 or even 1992, Macintosh System Software was a better alternative than Windows was.

In 1987 or even all the way to today, Amiga OS/MorphOS/AROS are better alternatives than Windows.

Re: ScriptBasic

Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:38 am
by John Spikowski
David,

If you wish to run ScriptBasic in a single threaded model and use malloc rather than Peter's myalloc here is the info you need.

https://www.scriptbasic.org/docs/dg/dev ... 8.1.1.html

Re: ScriptBasic

Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:41 am
by DavidS
John Spikowski wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:38 am
David,

If you wish to run ScriptBasic in a single threaded model and use malloc rather than Peter's myalloc here is the info you need.

https://www.scriptbasic.org/docs/dg/dev ... 8.1.1.html
Thank you for that, that definitely helps.

Re: ScriptBasic

Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:04 am
by ejolson
DavidS wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:38 pm
I forgot to say in my last post:
RISC OS is 32-bit, and the OS archetecture is so closely tied to the 32-Bit ARM ISA it is unlikely to ever be anything but 32-Bit ARM.
Linus said almost the same thing about his Linux kernel when it first came out, except it was 32-bit x86.

It turned out the GNU licensing made Linux attractive to the multitudes who adapted it to run almost everywhere. Now the Linux kernel is the one most widely used on ARM-based mobile phones, the Raspberry Pi and the A1 Graviton instances in the Amazon cloud.

How soon will Script Basic be able to serve web pages under RISC OS running on an A1 instance?

Re: ScriptBasic

Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:35 am
by John Spikowski
How soon will Script Basic be able to serve web pages under RISC OS running on an A1 instance?


If RISC OS doesn't support pthread then the sbhttpd appllication server is off the table.

Thanks @ejolson for the info about the AWS ARM EC2 Instances. I wonder if Plesk runs on ARM.

The smallest instance will run you about $20 a month for full time service.

Re: ScriptBasic

Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:57 am
by rpdom
DavidS wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:37 am
It still is not clear tha tthe PC and compatible will ever do anywhere near as well as other systems. I very rarely see an IBM/PC or other x86 based system in real world use. You see them all over the stores, though you never see them in anyones home or office.
That is a very bold statement. I see almost nothing but x86 PC systems almost everywhere I go. Usually 64 bit cpus now. I'm using one now. Every job I've had in the last 30 years or so has involved an x86 PC or Apple machine of some sort.

Re: ScriptBasic

Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:16 am
by Heater
David,
It still is not clear tha tthe PC and compatible will ever do anywhere near as well as other systems.
It's very clear. The offspring that evolved from the original mutant, ugly and crippled IBM PC are far more capable than any system you are thinking of. The only viable alternative is Apple products, but given their poor quality and high price they are not welcome in this house.
I very rarely see an IBM/PC or other x86 based system in real world use. You see them all over the stores, though you never see them in anyones home or office.
That is possibly the most surreal and absurd statement I have ever seen you write.

Or is it so that in the Sonoran desert time has stood still since the mid 1980's, the IBM PC never took off and the stores still have dusty shelves stacked with Amigas and Archimedes. No news from the outside world has made it into there for nearly 4 decades!

Sound like a spooky Steven King story.

Re: ScriptBasic

Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:13 am
by verhas
DavidS wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:55 pm
:) LOL :)
Should that be:
PRINT "Hello World!"

:)
No. It should be

PRINT "Hello, World!"

Re: ScriptBasic

Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:29 am
by Heater
All wrong. It should be:

Code: Select all

printf("hello, world\n");
As in the original publication in "The C Programming Language." from 1978.

Note the lack of capitalization and exclamation mark.

Of course the original was written in B like so:

Code: Select all

main( ) {
 extern a, b, c;
 putchar(a); putchar(b); putchar(c); putchar('!*n');
}
 
a 'hell';
b 'o, w';
c 'orld';

Re: ScriptBasic

Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:55 am
by RichardRussell
DavidS wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:11 am
As far as I know there is no Brandy BASIC on RISC OS.
Of course there is, I'm astonished you didn't know. Indeed at the Brandy home page it states that the RISC OS implementation "is the most complete version of the interpreter... It runs under RISC OS 3, 4 and 5. Versions are supplied to run 'out of the box' on older machines and on Iyonixes".