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PeterO
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Re: How to Differentiate RPI4 - 1 vs. 2 vs. 4 GB ?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:27 pm

Imperf3kt wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:23 pm
PeterO wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:18 pm
Imperf3kt wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:49 pm
You've got a bunch of mislabelled Pi (and substantially more problematic than a misprinted silkscreen)
Ask yourself "Which of the two is easier to correct ?"
PeterO
The misprinted silkscreen?
People will get the correct Pi they ordered, but with some incorrect and unimportant words written on it.

If you get the box wrong, and you've shipped people who bought a Pi4 4GB, a 2GB model, you need to determine which batch was in the wrong boxes, where those boxes went, recall them, hope they aren't mixed with millions of other identical boxes in a warehouse etc...
You only seem to be considering the cases that support your argument (which is wrong!).
Maybe the 4G boards were wrongly screen printed as 2Gb but were still put in the 4Gb boxes ?

Best solution is to minimise the complexity and just make one board type.

BTW you seem happy to ignore the screen printing ("unimportant words written on it. ") but are happy to put faith in the printing on the box.

PeterO
Last edited by PeterO on Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to Differentiate RPI4 - 1 vs. 2 vs. 4 GB ?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:30 pm

And that's a problem yes, but you can simply ignore the wrong paint. The Pi is still a 4GB Pi.

Allow me to change the way I explain it then.
If you bought a car, and paid an extra ten thousand dollars for a larger engine, but it came with a 4 cylinder badge, but had the v8 engine as you ordered, or you bought a car and paid for a larger engine and hot a v8 badge, but a 4 cylinder engine, which if the two is the worse case scenario?
Last edited by Imperf3kt on Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PeterO
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Re: How to Differentiate RPI4 - 1 vs. 2 vs. 4 GB ?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:32 pm

Imperf3kt wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:30 pm
And that's a problem yes, but you can simply ignore the wrong paint. The Pi is still a 4GB Pi.
If you are prepared to ignore the screen print then you've proved it is not worth printing it !
Check Mate !
PeterO
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Re: How to Differentiate RPI4 - 1 vs. 2 vs. 4 GB ?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:33 pm

PeterO wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:32 pm
Imperf3kt wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:30 pm
And that's a problem yes, but you can simply ignore the wrong paint. The Pi is still a 4GB Pi.
If you are prepared to ignore the screen print then you've proved it is not worth printing it !
Check Mate !
PeterO
I don't deny that.
I would like a silkscreen, but it is truly, not necessary and likely to never happen.

But what I'm saying has nothing to do with whether the silkscreen has any value.

If a production error can print the wrong silkscreen on a Pi, it can also put the Pi on the wrong box. So Jamesh saying that the silkscreen would complicate the production of Pi, to me at least, is an excuse that makes no sense, it's a way to dodge answering the real question - why won't they print the model or revision number on the silkscreen?
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buja
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Re: How to Differentiate RPI4 - 1 vs. 2 vs. 4 GB ?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:05 pm

The solution could be much simpler: a clear indication on the memory chip, preferably in big white characters instead of some obscure code in a hard to read colour. Not something the Pi manufacturer should have to do, but the manufacturer of the memory chip, encouraged to do so by the buyer of the memory chips.

It's time for some twenty first century thinking in manufacturing: lean and flexible, and still at low cost.
By the way, the price difference between the different Pi 4B versions is a remarkably exact 10 euros, which suggests a couple of cents or pennies in cost won't make much of a difference.
(I am doing a course in lean management now, so I might be exaggerating a bit here 8-), but not much :!: )

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PeterO
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Re: How to Differentiate RPI4 - 1 vs. 2 vs. 4 GB ?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:11 pm

Remeber what James said earlier
Jamesh wrote: And also a recipe for confusion. Make production process more complicated, and if production gets it wrong you have a load of mislabelled boards.
Always worth remembering that we spend a lot of time thinking about stuff. If you think something could be done better, we have almost certainly thought about it already, and decided not to do it for some reason; might be production complexity, might be cost, might be technically unfeasible.
So you're wasting your breath !
PeterO
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Re: How to Differentiate RPI4 - 1 vs. 2 vs. 4 GB ?

Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:03 am

buja wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:05 pm
The solution could be much simpler: a clear indication on the memory chip, preferably in big white characters instead of some obscure code in a hard to read colour. Not something the Pi manufacturer should have to do, but the manufacturer of the memory chip, encouraged to do so by the buyer of the memory chips.

It's time for some twenty first century thinking in manufacturing: lean and flexible, and still at low cost.
By the way, the price difference between the different Pi 4B versions is a remarkably exact 10 euros, which suggests a couple of cents or pennies in cost won't make much of a difference.
(I am doing a course in lean management now, so I might be exaggerating a bit here 8-), but not much :!: )
When you 5 million of something a year, a couple of cents is a LOT of money. You need to get your head round volume manufacturing.
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buja
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Re: How to Differentiate RPI4 - 1 vs. 2 vs. 4 GB ?

Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:27 am

jamesh wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:03 am
buja wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:05 pm
The solution could be much simpler: a clear indication on the memory chip, preferably in big white characters instead of some obscure code in a hard to read colour. Not something the Pi manufacturer should have to do, but the manufacturer of the memory chip, encouraged to do so by the buyer of the memory chips.

It's time for some twenty first century thinking in manufacturing: lean and flexible, and still at low cost.
By the way, the price difference between the different Pi 4B versions is a remarkably exact 10 euros, which suggests a couple of cents or pennies in cost won't make much of a difference.
(I am doing a course in lean management now, so I might be exaggerating a bit here 8-), but not much :!: )
When you 5 million of something a year, a couple of cents is a LOT of money. You need to get your head round volume manufacturing.
I do, but the issue here is customer value. And there is value in a clear identification, as confirmed by some people here.

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PeterO
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Re: How to Differentiate RPI4 - 1 vs. 2 vs. 4 GB ?

Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:11 am

buja wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:27 am
I do, but the issue here is customer value. And there is value in a clear identification, as confirmed by some people here.
For a very very small value of some..... Everyone else looks at the box and probably writes 1,2 or 4 on the Ethernet port top in indelible pen (that's what I do so I expect everyone else does as well ;) )
PeterO
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Re: How to Differentiate RPI4 - 1 vs. 2 vs. 4 GB ?

Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:10 am

buja wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:27 am
jamesh wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:03 am
buja wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:05 pm
The solution could be much simpler: a clear indication on the memory chip, preferably in big white characters instead of some obscure code in a hard to read colour. Not something the Pi manufacturer should have to do, but the manufacturer of the memory chip, encouraged to do so by the buyer of the memory chips.

It's time for some twenty first century thinking in manufacturing: lean and flexible, and still at low cost.
By the way, the price difference between the different Pi 4B versions is a remarkably exact 10 euros, which suggests a couple of cents or pennies in cost won't make much of a difference.
(I am doing a course in lean management now, so I might be exaggerating a bit here 8-), but not much :!: )
When you 5 million of something a year, a couple of cents is a LOT of money. You need to get your head round volume manufacturing.
I do, but the issue here is customer value. And there is value in a clear identification, as confirmed by some people here.
Not sure the customer value exceeds the cost to do. In fact, pretty certain it doesn't. We spend a lot of time cost reducing so we can keep to our price points, this seems like an unnecessary expense that goes against that goal, for very little benefit.

There's quite a hike in costs if we had to deal with multiple PCB types. Storage whilst a different type is being made, the organisational changes required on the production line, ordering changes. It's not just the cost of the silkscreen, the ramifications are wide ranging.

I did wonder however, if the QR code on the stick on label has the memory size encoded in it. That's done at production time. However, just checked and it doesn't. However, we are looking into ways of identifying the memory sizes on the boards without having to change the silkscreen as it would clearly be of use.
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Re: How to Differentiate RPI4 - 1 vs. 2 vs. 4 GB ?

Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:45 am

Hi,
Those different Pi variants are enclosed on different boxes before shipping (mentioning the memory model).
Can't you just put a sticker about the memory size inside the box ? So the customer should just have the choice to stick or not this piece of paper about memory capacity, after unboxing the Pi 4.

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Re: How to Differentiate RPI4 - 1 vs. 2 vs. 4 GB ?

Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:51 am

laurent wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:45 am
Hi,
Those different Pi variants are enclosed on different boxes before shipping (mentioning the memory model).
Can't you just put a sticker about the memory size inside the box ? So the customer should just have the choice to stick or not this piece of paper about memory capacity, after unboxing the Pi 4.
And then we will have endless complaints about overheating where the label is stuck on the SOC, and a heatsink on top.... :o :shock: :? :( :cry: :roll:
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Re: How to Differentiate RPI4 - 1 vs. 2 vs. 4 GB ?

Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:52 am

laurent wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:45 am
Hi,
Those different Pi variants are enclosed on different boxes before shipping (mentioning the memory model).
Can't you just put a sticker about the memory size inside the box ? So the customer should just have the choice to stick or not this piece of paper about memory capacity, after unboxing the Pi 4.
We already have a plan for identifying the memory model.
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Re: How to Differentiate RPI4 - 1 vs. 2 vs. 4 GB ?

Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:56 am

jamesh wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:52 am
laurent wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:45 am
Hi,
Those different Pi variants are enclosed on different boxes before shipping (mentioning the memory model).
Can't you just put a sticker about the memory size inside the box ? So the customer should just have the choice to stick or not this piece of paper about memory capacity, after unboxing the Pi 4.
We already have a plan for identifying the memory model.
Oh ! Now everyone will be waiting for the V1.3 boards to appear with the "memory identification bug" fixed : :roll: :lol:
PeterO

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Re: How to Differentiate RPI4 - 1 vs. 2 vs. 4 GB ?

Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:10 pm

davidcoton wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:51 am
laurent wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:45 am
Hi,
Those different Pi variants are enclosed on different boxes before shipping (mentioning the memory model).
Can't you just put a sticker about the memory size inside the box ? So the customer should just have the choice to stick or not this piece of paper about memory capacity, after unboxing the Pi 4.
And then we will have endless complaints about overheating where the label is stuck on the SOC, and a heatsink on top.... :o :shock: :? :( :cry: :roll:
Not on the SoC !
I personally use a Dymo labeller to differentiate my boards, and I stick the labels on top of the ethernet port.
I remember also to stick a label with the MPEG2 licence numbers directly on early Pi models when I bought those licences in the past.

I know that not everyone needs to differentiate Pi models (and not everyone owns different Pi models), so the solution of a little label to stick may satisfy users which needs it, without been that costly for users which doesn't need it.
(look at the blue thing on Pi NoIR camera modules)

trejan
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Re: How to Differentiate RPI4 - 1 vs. 2 vs. 4 GB ?

Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:24 pm

laurent wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:10 pm
I remember also to stick a label with the MPEG2 licence numbers directly on early Pi models when I bought those licences in the past.
You only need to load the key once. It permanently sets an OTP bit to indicate that you've paid for a license.

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Re: How to Differentiate RPI4 - 1 vs. 2 vs. 4 GB ?

Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:43 pm

trejan wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:24 pm
laurent wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:10 pm
I remember also to stick a label with the MPEG2 licence numbers directly on early Pi models when I bought those licences in the past.
You only need to load the key once. It permanently sets an OTP bit to indicate that you've paid for a license.
Thanks for this information.
I required this only for early Pis used for light media centres (under LibreElec) for friends and family.
Glad to know that if i want to send them an updated SD card, I won't need to ask them to open the case in order to tell me the licence number :)

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Re: How to Differentiate RPI4 - 1 vs. 2 vs. 4 GB ?

Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:57 pm

laurent wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:43 pm
I required this only for early Pis used for light media centres (under LibreElec) for friends and family.
Glad to know that if i want to send them an updated SD card, I won't need to ask them to open the case in order to tell me the licence number :)
Hmm. You probably do still need to ask them for the license key. It looks like very old firmware doesn't do it as the firmware only started setting those license key bits sometime around the start of 2017.

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Re: How to Differentiate RPI4 - 1 vs. 2 vs. 4 GB ?

Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:38 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:52 am
We already have a plan for identifying the memory model.
:( Bang goes the opportunity to buy a second-hand 4GB for the price of 1GB because the seller doesn't know what size memory it has. Still, plenty out there without stickers which in due course will hopefully find their way to the second-hand market.

On the plus side one can probably tell, if it's got a memory size sticker or whatever indication, it's likely a 1.2 version.

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Re: How to Differentiate RPI4 - 1 vs. 2 vs. 4 GB ?

Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:02 pm

hippy wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:38 pm
jamesh wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:52 am
We already have a plan for identifying the memory model.
:( Bang goes the opportunity to buy a second-hand 4GB for the price of 1GB because the seller doesn't know what size memory it has. Still, plenty out there without stickers which in due course will hopefully find their way to the second-hand market.

On the plus side one can probably tell, if it's got a memory size sticker or whatever indication, it's likely a 1.2 version.
Or a 1.1, or a 1.3, or a 1.4.....
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Re: How to Differentiate RPI4 - 1 vs. 2 vs. 4 GB ?

Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:22 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:02 pm
Or a 1.1, or a 1.3, or a 1.4.....
Can't we have a sticker for that, too? (Puts on Tinfoil hat and runs) :lol:
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Re: How to Differentiate RPI4 - 1 vs. 2 vs. 4 GB ?

Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:00 pm

davidcoton wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:22 pm
jamesh wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:02 pm
Or a 1.1, or a 1.3, or a 1.4.....
Can't we have a sticker for that, too? (Puts on Tinfoil hat and runs) :lol:
No that would cost a few cents per sale and would complicate the production process.
Buy your own sticker.
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hippy
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Re: How to Differentiate RPI4 - 1 vs. 2 vs. 4 GB ?

Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:45 am

Imperf3kt wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:00 pm
davidcoton wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:22 pm
jamesh wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:02 pm
Or a 1.1, or a 1.3, or a 1.4.....
Can't we have a sticker for that, too? (Puts on Tinfoil hat and runs) :lol:
No that would cost a few cents per sale and would complicate the production process.
Buy your own sticker.
If they are planning a means to identify RAM size it would seem little extra cost to also identify board revision, though if there were any intent to do that they would likely have updated the silkscreen when they also updated the PCB tracking and had their next batch of PCB's manufactured. That would have been a relatively small one-off sunk cost.

Even if it adds a few cents per board that's not a lot in the grand scheme of things; maybe $5K taken from each $1M profit.

As for it identifying a board revision; I was basing that on there being some 3 million 4B version 1.1 boards sold which are unlikely to get official markers added post-sale, and it seems unlikely many more version 1.1 boards will pass through the system, I wouldn't have thought another 3 million. Though I expect there will be a period where 1.2 boards are used for 4GB, 1.1 used for the others until stock is depleted.

So, no RAM size indicator means it's very probably a version 1.1 board. With it's probably a version 1.2 or later with the USB-C fix and whatever else changed, if 4GB with a sticker, it's almost certainly a version 1.2 or later.

Even if that's not the case; that it may be 1.1 even with an indicator of RAM size, that's good news, allows for bartering down on the grounds that what's being sold may be an old board even if it has a sticker.

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Re: How to Differentiate RPI4 - 1 vs. 2 vs. 4 GB ?

Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:12 am

Very interesting discussion ... and I found the answer.

There are TWO official boxes for the RPI4: Red/White and Black/Gray.

Immediately upon opening the boxes, I'm housing the 1GB into the Gray/Black and the 4GB into the White/Red ... Not a solution for everyone, but it'll have to do until we have better options.

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Re: How to Differentiate RPI4 - 1 vs. 2 vs. 4 GB ?

Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:24 am

Here is another point. Luckily, the PI4 boxes are 'tamper-proof' (not tamper-resistant) i.e., you can't just open them and reclose them (as was the case for prior PI generations). A bad scenario but, what if boxes are opened (at a store?), circuits swapped, re-sealed ... and the unsuspecting customer buys a 1G board yet pays for a 4GB ?

What I'm asking: What if the description on the box does not agree with the contents? Yes, could happen, and you pay for the scanned box (bar code), you do not pay for the contents. I shop at Micro-Center often, and some %#[email protected]* shoppers always open boxes, and re-close them ... I always go for sealed boxes, but one never knows.

For now though, Micro-Center keeps ALL PI's in a sealed cabinet, as apparently it's a 'preferred' item among shop lifters.

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