Gruselgurke
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Full schematic for the Pi3 and Zero

Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:09 pm

This has been discussed before here: https://github.com/raspberrypi/documentation/issues/347
but the discussion got shut down. So far I could not find a statement as to WHY the foundation does not want to release the schematics for newer Pi models? So far it sounds like its a "don't want to" than a "can't'".
The Pi is a popular targets for all sorts of hacks, having a full schematic greatly helps with those purposes and also helps with the development of add-on boards (which is what I am interested in and sometimes overlaps with the hacking part). I would greatly welcome it if its legally possible for the foundation that it releases a full schematic like it did with old models.

To a large part the Pi became big thanks to a tremendous effort from the open source community so I find it a little sad that now that the Pi is so successful you are closing down even more on the hardware side.

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davidcoton
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Re: Full schematic for the Pi3 and Zero

Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:51 pm

Pi software is largely open source, with the exception of the GPU boot code which is proprietary.
Pi hardware has never been open-source, despite the publication of schematics for some early models.
I believe the reason given (or deduced here) is that publication of the schematic makes life too easy for would-be imitators and fakers.
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B.Goode
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Re: Full schematic for the Pi3 and Zero

Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:10 pm

The Pi is a popular targets for all sorts of hacks, having a full schematic greatly helps with those purposes and also helps with the development of add-on boards (which is what I am interested in and sometimes overlaps with the hacking part).
Maybe you would be a candidate for inclusion in the Raspberry Pi Integrator Programme? That might provide the additional insight you need?

https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/raspbe ... programme/

jamesh
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Re: Full schematic for the Pi3 and Zero

Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:36 pm

Gruselgurke wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:09 pm
This has been discussed before here: https://github.com/raspberrypi/documentation/issues/347
but the discussion got shut down. So far I could not find a statement as to WHY the foundation does not want to release the schematics for newer Pi models? So far it sounds like its a "don't want to" than a "can't'".
The Pi is a popular targets for all sorts of hacks, having a full schematic greatly helps with those purposes and also helps with the development of add-on boards (which is what I am interested in and sometimes overlaps with the hacking part). I would greatly welcome it if its legally possible for the foundation that it releases a full schematic like it did with old models.

To a large part the Pi became big thanks to a tremendous effort from the open source community so I find it a little sad that now that the Pi is so successful you are closing down even more on the hardware side.
IRC, we have never released full schematics (at least since the PiB+), staying in business is quite important to us! As above, the HW has NEVER been Open source. It is a Don't want. rather than a Can't. We could release them if there was a need to, and in fact the CMIO has full schematics I believe, because there is a clear need. Note that this has been in place for about 4 years, so the HW is not something that is now closing down - it's almost always been that way.

I'm surprised you need them though. There are thousands of third party add on boards that have been constructed without access to the schematics. Is there a particular problem you have?
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rasn34
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Re: Full schematic for the Pi3 and Zero

Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:05 am

jamesh wrote : 'staying in business is quite important to us! "

But isn't the pi foundation a charity? Or maybe it's not a foundation nor a charity, just a for profit business? Also, I don't think there's any proof that releasing schematics would affect the ability to generate profits.

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RaTTuS
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Re: Full schematic for the Pi3 and Zero

Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:12 am

the foundation is a charity
pi trading which is the design end is a for profit company which provides the foundation with money IIRC

if you remove thye revenue stream then the charity cannot function as well as it does
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Re: Full schematic for the Pi3 and Zero

Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:31 am

rasn34 wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:05 am
jamesh wrote : 'staying in business is quite important to us! "

But isn't the pi foundation a charity? Or maybe it's not a foundation nor a charity, just a for profit business? Also, I don't think there's any proof that releasing schematics would affect the ability to generate profits.
RPF are a charity. Charities need money to function, money doesn't grow on trees, it's produced by sales of the Pi range. The Pi range is developed by RPF(trading), all profits go to the charity. Anything that negatively affects the sales of the Pi range affects the charity. We are not willing to take the risk to prove whether it's actually a risk or not!

Why do you need the schematics? What extra things are you going to be able to do?
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rasn34
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Re: Full schematic for the Pi3 and Zero

Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:57 am

My interest in the schematics is just pure intellectual curiosity. Other people may have more utilitarian reasons I suppose =)

Gruselgurke
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Re: Full schematic for the Pi3 and Zero

Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:14 pm

jamesh wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:36 pm
Gruselgurke wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:09 pm
This has been discussed before here: https://github.com/raspberrypi/documentation/issues/347
but the discussion got shut down. So far I could not find a statement as to WHY the foundation does not want to release the schematics for newer Pi models? So far it sounds like its a "don't want to" than a "can't'".
The Pi is a popular targets for all sorts of hacks, having a full schematic greatly helps with those purposes and also helps with the development of add-on boards (which is what I am interested in and sometimes overlaps with the hacking part). I would greatly welcome it if its legally possible for the foundation that it releases a full schematic like it did with old models.

To a large part the Pi became big thanks to a tremendous effort from the open source community so I find it a little sad that now that the Pi is so successful you are closing down even more on the hardware side.
IRC, we have never released full schematics (at least since the PiB+), staying in business is quite important to us! As above, the HW has NEVER been Open source. It is a Don't want. rather than a Can't. We could release them if there was a need to, and in fact the CMIO has full schematics I believe, because there is a clear need. Note that this has been in place for about 4 years, so the HW is not something that is now closing down - it's almost always been that way.

I'm surprised you need them though. There are thousands of third party add on boards that have been constructed without access to the schematics. Is there a particular problem you have?
Creating hardware based on the CM is actually one reason why the full schematic would be much needed.
If you want to create compatibility in certain areas to the normal Pi3, take for example USB/Ethernet connections, you can create something using the same Microchip IC as the Pi3 but it wouldn't be fully electrically compatible if you use a different circuit than the Pi3.

Another reason is that we as a company use the Pi in a plethora of different projects, often not the most usual projects that sometimes require heavy modification to the Pi. Having a full understanding of the hardware would be incredibly valuable for debugging of issues and development of hardware around the Pi.
The same way as the schematic of your washing machine is valuable for maintenance, the schematic of the Pi would have the same value to us.
I can understand that you are anxious about competition but from our perspective, as a company who is constantly evaluating new SBCs on the market. The Pi is never going to be replaced by any of these boards, thanks to the enormous eco-system the Pi has, including the great software work done by the foundation and Pi engineers, which is so much more valuable than the actual hardware. Hardware wise the Pi is worse performance wise than any SBC we have reviewed in recent years.
There are many clones out there already, the only thing that could make them dangerous is if they were to use the same SoC as the Pi so they could fully tap into the same ecosystem as the Pi. Given that you are in close relationship with Broadcomm and that your SoCs are not available to the open market, you are in full control of that happening or not.
Reverse engineering a PCB is a relatively simple task for many people in that industry in china, not disclosing your schematic is doubtful to be effective to have any impact on clones, I would even say its financially not interesting for anyone to try emulate the Pi as much as possible and just using a different SoC, that is just going to be more expensive and does not give you any edge over the Pi.
For us as a company, the Pi is interesting because it is the most open (usable) SBC/SoC hardware out there. That is the biggest reason why we never switched to any other hardware because that openness is making our work a lot easier. So we even gladly find workarounds for this weaker hardware just to stay with the Pi as a system.

That integrator program and the possibility to get a modified Pi from Farnell is also a great thing but as a small'ish company its not financially viable to take part in these programs, we create small scale hardware tailored to a specific client and don't sell thousand of products per project.

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Re: Full schematic for the Pi3 and Zero

Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:20 am

I am hoping that the Pi hardware and software be 100% open sourced so it can be endorsed by the FSF (Free software foundation) and of course you can get a peace of mind and the four essentials of freedom (software without binary blobs) if you know what the hardware does to make sure it does not have a backdoor like the Intel ME or similar (see global mass surveillance disclosures).
The pi can and should use open hardware like the atheros chipset as wifi but this may cost much and redesigning the hardware will be a nightmare.
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Re: Full schematic for the Pi3 and Zero

Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:33 am

sora03 wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:20 am
I am hoping that the Pi hardware and software be 100% open sourced so it can be endorsed by the FSF (Free software foundation) and of course you can get a peace of mind and the four essentials of freedom (software without binary blobs) if you know what the hardware does to make sure it does not have a backdoor like the Intel ME or similar (see global mass surveillance disclosures).
The pi can and should use open hardware like the atheros chipset as wifi but this may cost much and redesigning the hardware will be a nightmare.
What part of James' post are you failing to understand?
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Re: Full schematic for the Pi3 and Zero

Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:18 pm

sora03 wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:20 am
I am hoping that the Pi hardware and software be 100% open sourced so it can be endorsed by the FSF (Free software foundation) and of course you can get a peace of mind and the four essentials of freedom (software without binary blobs) if you know what the hardware does to make sure it does not have a backdoor like the Intel ME or similar (see global mass surveillance disclosures).
The pi can and should use open hardware like the atheros chipset as wifi but this may cost much and redesigning the hardware will be a nightmare.
Nope. Not going to happen for any foreseeable futures.

We have released as much software source as we are allowed to do, the firmware code (GPU, Wireless chipset) is not owned by us.

The GPU software does not have a backdoor. I cannot comment on the wireless chip blob, since we do not have access to the source.

The HW will remain closed.

I am not particularly bothered about FSF endorsement. It makes no difference to the sales of the Pi.
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Re: Full schematic for the Pi3 and Zero

Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:39 am

Here's a very practical situation where a schematic is essential to solve even a simple problem.

I have a physical interface that plugs into a pi3b and uses GPIO2 and 3 as driven output signals. I didn't design the interface and can't change the hardware. The designer neglected to consider that those two pins were I2C signals conveniently equipped with pull-up resisters... nice for I2C... not so for me! Pi ports come up as high impedance inputs by default and the design requires them to stay low at reset, which they would if it wasn't for the pull-ups. With the pull-ups in place the immediately go high at power up till the app software kicks in and drives the pins low.

Rather than re-spinning the board, it would be simple, given access to proper schematic and layout files, to locate and pop those 2 pull-ups off the Pi.

Yes. I have access to an advanced solder station and microscope.
It's um...uh...well it's kinda like...and it's got a bit of...

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Re: Full schematic for the Pi3 and Zero

Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:49 am

jcyr wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:39 am
Here's a very practical situation where a schematic is essential to solve even a simple problem.

I have a physical interface that plugs into a pi3b and uses GPIO2 and 3 as driven output signals. I didn't design the interface and can't change the hardware. The designer neglected to consider that those two pins were I2C signals conveniently equipped with pull-up resisters... nice for I2C... not so for me! Pi ports come up as high impedance inputs by default and the design requires them to stay low at reset, which they would if it wasn't for the pull-ups. With the pull-ups in place the immediately go high at power up till the app software kicks in and drives the pins low.

Rather than re-spinning the board, it would be simple, given access to proper schematic and layout files, to locate pop those 2 pull-ups off the Pi.

Yes. I have access to an advanced solder station and microscope.
You don't need a schematic to locate those two resistors, just your eyes and a magnifying glass, then a test meter to buzz them out. R23 and R24 on the Pi3B. Two unmarked resistors on the Pi Zero [W]. In both cases they are right next to the pins in question.

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Re: Full schematic for the Pi3 and Zero

Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:29 am

The partial schematics for Pi3B and Pi0 both show those pullups.
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Re: Full schematic for the Pi3 and Zero

Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:38 pm

Thanks... R23 & R24 it is. Though my post was more intended to respond to comments like:
I'm surprised you need them though. There are thousands of third party add on boards that have been constructed without access to the schematics. Is there a particular problem you have?

... that seem to suggest there is no reasonable need.
It's um...uh...well it's kinda like...and it's got a bit of...

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Re: Full schematic for the Pi3 and Zero

Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:42 pm

jcyr wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:38 pm
Thanks... R23 & R24 it is. Though my post was more intended to respond to comments like:
I'm surprised you need them though. There are thousands of third party add on boards that have been constructed without access to the schematics. Is there a particular problem you have?

... that seem to suggest there is no reasonable need.
You have not demonstrated a reasonable need. As in my last post, the information you use as an example of your "need" is already published in the partial schematics.
As is the vast majority of the information you will ever need for designing interfaces to the Pi.
As others have said the information required in your example can be determined by examining the board so even the partial schematic is not strictly necessay in this case. (Granted I personally prefer the partial schematic to observation.)

A full schematic could be useful for those able to replace missing or damaged components, and needing to determine the correct value. Usually an enquiry here on the forum will elicit such information.
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Re: Full schematic for the Pi3 and Zero

Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:59 pm

Not here to argue...
It's um...uh...well it's kinda like...and it's got a bit of...

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piglet
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Re: Full schematic for the Pi3 and Zero

Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:17 pm

jcyr wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:59 pm
Not here to argue...
Well, it's one pound for a five minute argument, but only eight pounds for a course of ten....

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Re: Full schematic for the Pi3 and Zero

Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:32 pm

The GPU software does not have a backdoor. I cannot comment on the wireless chip blob, since we do not have access to the source.
The HW will remain closed.
I am not particularly bothered about FSF endorsement. It makes no difference to the sales of the Pi.
Do any of the "clone" SBC makers have a support system as big as RPF?
The Pi's do what they are intended to do, provide revenue so the charity can teach UK kids how to code.
That is the Mission, full stop. If it spreads to the RoW kids that is a big positive.

Bonus is we can buy them from many places and use them for low cost gadgets.
Anything that can lowers revenue effects the Mission.
Open hardware WILL effect the mission, this lesson was learned with camera V1.
The Mission probably has at least another 5-10years to go to get the required exposures into .the UK schools.
The Teachers have to learn this stuff, Primary kids have that time frame before University.

Now that the Pi's are running off the production lines as fast as they can, RPF's focus must be the Mission.
Mind you if the mission was to sell as many SBC's as possible, they are doing pretty good there too :D

Anyone wanting to use them for commercial products should use the CM's, insert another full stop here ;) .
I don't use Pi's commercially, mine go into Scientific equipment for research, usually one off.
Full schematics, open software would help but only so I can use them as the makers never intended :D

The WiFi blob has had security issues, fixed until issue?
GPU backdoor? well maybe not but it shares the same memory as the Arm, that feature could be abused.
NXP, TI and others make similar chips that are more open (except GPU).
Anyone not happy with the BCM chips is free to use anyone else's.

Now hacking and reverse engineering how the Pi works is also fun, if some what time consuming.
Lot to be learned doing that, like the fact these things have so much silicon bits in them no one person can understand it all.
The lesson for me is bring on the RISC V, I might just be able to grok them.
But where is the open GPU?

Time to call in the pink unicorns on this?
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jcyr
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Re: Full schematic for the Pi3 and Zero

Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:36 am

Well, it's one pound for a five minute argument, but only eight pounds for a course of ten....
Well done. Was wondering if there was anyone left here of my own age? ;)
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Gavinmc42
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Re: Full schematic for the Pi3 and Zero

Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:40 am

Yep plenty of grumpy old men here.
Even some Python fans :lol:
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DougieLawson
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Re: Full schematic for the Pi3 and Zero

Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:45 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:40 am
Yep plenty of grumpy old men here.
Even some Python fans :lol:
Of the Monty kind only. (I was there at the O2 for the last ever show.)
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BobKruse
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Re: Full schematic for the Pi3 and Zero

Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:44 pm

Hi,

We're designing a board that uses a couple CM3 modules. And we are right at the stage of putting in the USB to Ethernet bridge. It happens to be PI day, and you upgraded the Ethernet to a LAN7515.

You published the schematic for the IO board, and I appreciate it. I was hoping to look up the approved connections to the LAN7515, but you aren't releasing the full PI3 B+ schematic for sound business reasons.

Someday you may release a new CM3+ and a revised IO board.

I wonder if you would consider publishing a snippet of just the LAN7515 and Ethernet circuit.

Thank you

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mahjongg
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Re: Full schematic for the Pi3 and Zero

Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:18 pm

What about the documentation Microchip (the makers of the LAN7515) provide? You can get it from them, here: http://www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/Pr ... 15/LAN9514, should be enough to modify your design.

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