healingeye
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Can we make 2 Raspberry Pis work together to run/render a game?

Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:41 pm

Can we pair through bluetooth, 2x Raspberry Pi 3 or more Raspberry Pi 3 to run/render faster a game/program like Chromium? This way the programs may run yet more smoothly and stabler, you would see the performance increase in html5? Let along you will not need to use a switch for ethernet/Lan or any other such device. I like this idea very much. If this becomes true, people may just have the freewill and confidence to buy 2 or more Raspberry Pi computer and get them working together. This would be a very nice feature for Raspbian to sell and go along with the Raspberry Pi. Could this be done/programmed right now and be allowed to run with the current capabilities we have in the Raspberry Pi 3? :P In the future next Pi? :geek:

pcmanbob
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Re: Can we make 2 Raspberry Pis work together to run/render a game?

Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:04 pm

Hi.

Basically the answer is no you cant connect multiple pi's like that to run desktop programs or games.

what you do when you connect multiple pi's is create a Beowulf Cluster, I suggest you go look at this web site and the link within it on how you do it.

http://www.zdnet.com/article/build-your ... pi-boards/
http://coen.boisestate.edu/ece/files/20 ... ter_v2.pdf
Last edited by pcmanbob on Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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fruitoftheloom
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Re: Can we make 2 Raspberry Pis work together to run/render a game?

Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:34 pm

healingeye wrote:
Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:41 pm
Can we pair through bluetooth, 2x Raspberry Pi 3 or more Raspberry Pi 3 to run/render faster a game/program like Chromium? This way the programs may run yet more smoothly and stabler, you would see the performance increase in html5? Let along you will not need to use a switch for ethernet/Lan or any other such device. I like this idea very much. If this becomes true, people may just have the freewill and confidence to buy 2 or more Raspberry Pi computer and get them working together. This would be a very nice feature for Raspbian to sell and go along with the Raspberry Pi. Could this be done/programmed right now and be allowed to run with the current capabilities we have in the Raspberry Pi 3? :P In the future next Pi? :geek:
A collection of RPi's a better computer it does not make, why would you believe it would ??

Clustering is great way to learn about distributed computing and such like:

https://www.raspberrypi.org/magpi/clust ... erry-pi-3/
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healingeye
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Re: Can we make 2 Raspberry Pis work together to run/render a game?

Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:09 am

I am asking if something like cluster could be done but by bluetooth and or wireless?

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Can we make 2 Raspberry Pis work together to run/render a game?

Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:23 am

healingeye wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:09 am
I am asking if something like cluster could be done but by bluetooth and or wireless?
That is not what you asked in the title of your post ""Can we make 2 Raspberry Pis work together to run/render a game?"" of which the answer is NO.
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drgeoff
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Re: Can we make 2 Raspberry Pis work together to run/render a game?

Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:28 am

Communication between the RPis is arguably the Achilles heel of clustering them. That is when they are connected by ethernet. Wi-Fi and especially Bluetooth are even slower.

So the strict answer to your question is yes it is possible. But the performance is likely to be no better or even worse than using just a single RPi.

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karrika
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Re: Can we make 2 Raspberry Pis work together to run/render a game?

Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:54 am

The key thing here is the level of granularity of the program you are trying to speed up. If you can split it into separate tasks that do not need to interact with each other then you can get some speed up.

An example could be a virtual aquarium where you share the 3D objects of the fish. If you use 4 screens to build the tank then one PiZero could be dedicated to each screen and you could see the fish from different angles when you walk around the aquarium.

PiGraham
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Re: Can we make 2 Raspberry Pis work together to run/render a game?

Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:02 am

I suppose there could be some performance gains but as others have pointed out communication between boards is a bottle-neck. It doesn't make sense to try to render half a scene on PiOne and the other half on PiTwo and send the graphics result from One to Two. Graphics take a lot of data which is slow to end over any of the available channels, Bluetooth being the slowest.

If you can do some heavy processing on one Pi that produces only small amounts of data it might make sense. Possibilities could be AI (Artificial Intelligence of opponents), procedural world generation (populating a game world from calculation of big pseudorandom number sequence) or physics simulation. You could then have number crunching on one Pi and graphics rendering on the other and only send small packets of data between them. For AI that might be a sparse representation of the game world being rendered sent to the AI Pi and few points to define a movement path and character pose sent back to be rendered.

It probably makes an application many times harder to design, code and test and it won't necessarily gain you any performance. It could turn out slower. Work out likely timings before you begin coding!

PiGraham
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Re: Can we make 2 Raspberry Pis work together to run/render a game?

Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:06 am

karrika wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:54 am
The key thing here is the level of granularity of the program you are trying to speed up. If you can split it into separate tasks that do not need to interact with each other then you can get some speed up.

An example could be a virtual aquarium where you share the 3D objects of the fish. If you use 4 screens to build the tank then one PiZero could be dedicated to each screen and you could see the fish from different angles when you walk around the aquarium.
Good point. Multi screen is an ideal case.

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RaTTuS
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Re: Can we make 2 Raspberry Pis work together to run/render a game?

Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:18 am

How To ask Questions :- http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
WARNING - some parts of this post may be erroneous YMMV

1QC43qbL5FySu2Pi51vGqKqxy3UiJgukSX
Covfefe

BlackKnight_UK
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Re: Can we make 2 Raspberry Pis work together to run/render a game?

Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:38 am

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:23 am
healingeye wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:09 am
I am asking if something like cluster could be done but by bluetooth and or wireless?
That is not what you asked in the title of your post ""Can we make 2 Raspberry Pis work together to run/render a game?"" of which the answer is NO.
Can we pair through bluetooth, 2x Raspberry Pi 3 or more Raspberry Pi 3 to run/render faster a game/program like Chromium?
Was the actual question :lol:

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Can we make 2 Raspberry Pis work together to run/render a game?

Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:26 pm

BlackKnight_UK wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:38 am
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:23 am
healingeye wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:09 am
I am asking if something like cluster could be done but by bluetooth and or wireless?
That is not what you asked in the title of your post ""Can we make 2 Raspberry Pis work together to run/render a game?"" of which the answer is NO.
Can we pair through bluetooth, 2x Raspberry Pi 3 or more Raspberry Pi 3 to run/render faster a game/program like Chromium?
Was the actual question :lol:
Maybe but not the actual TITLE :roll:
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arclite
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Re: Can we make 2 Raspberry Pis work together to run/render a game?

Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:03 am

Now with the RPi 3B+ and Gigabit Ethernet the communications No oh no! response is a little more redundant. So what is the next bottleneck in functionality that bars the principle idea of a multiprocessor multi-Pi system?

Surely some DMA control overall offloads the CPU consumption on each Pi unit. Rationalising i think is the correct term when looking at the consumption of CPU resources to produce a lean distribution of tasks similar to the original concept of RISK processing. Admittedly the underlying architecture was radically transformed to optimise the RISK software, or was it the other way round? It looks like a lot of cooperation has made anything possible or better than arguing and denigrating the dreamers and open minded members of our community. Perhaps a better etiquette could be proposed and adopted much like HTML has enabled international - interplanetary communication above and beyond pen and ink?

I personally think C, pointer arithmetic, RAID1,0 applied to fast programming and redundancy to provide stability via error checking regardless of the total number of RPi nodes before reviewing the effectiveness of the model? A scientific brute force check on viable methodologies provides data like NASA's spaceship program has watched many catestrophic failures pave the way to reliable missions. Those that do eventually succeed. If you want to succeed, unfortunately until we have a new etiquette, sharing your ideas is unlikely to encourage your efforts!

The biggest problem is the human propensity to give answers competitively without regard to the bigger picture. Pragmatists vs dreamers. Or "Why should we fly when the Earth is flat anyway?". Frankly I have no idea, I prefer to think ideas through until something useful results. It might be made from fragments of previously failed or abandoned projects, no matter, the end result always justifies holding an open mind!

Good luck to those who will benefit from it!

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Can we make 2 Raspberry Pis work together to run/render a game?

Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:31 am

arclite wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:03 am
Now with the RPi 3B+ and Gigabit Ethernet the communications No oh no! response is a little more redundant. So what is the next bottleneck in functionality that bars the principle idea of a multiprocessor multi-Pi system?

Surely some DMA control overall offloads the CPU consumption on each Pi unit. Rationalising i think is the correct term when looking at the consumption of CPU resources to produce a lean distribution of tasks similar to the original concept of RISK processing. Admittedly the underlying architecture was radically transformed to optimise the RISK software, or was it the other way round? It looks like a lot of cooperation has made anything possible or better than arguing and denigrating the dreamers and open minded members of our community. Perhaps a better etiquette could be proposed and adopted much like HTML has enabled international - interplanetary communication above and beyond pen and ink?

I personally think C, pointer arithmetic, RAID1,0 applied to fast programming and redundancy to provide stability via error checking regardless of the total number of RPi nodes before reviewing the effectiveness of the model? A scientific brute force check on viable methodologies provides data like NASA's spaceship program has watched many catestrophic failures pave the way to reliable missions. Those that do eventually succeed. If you want to succeed, unfortunately until we have a new etiquette, sharing your ideas is unlikely to encourage your efforts!

The biggest problem is the human propensity to give answers competitively without regard to the bigger picture. Pragmatists vs dreamers. Or "Why should we fly when the Earth is flat anyway?". Frankly I have no idea, I prefer to think ideas through until something useful results. It might be made from fragments of previously failed or abandoned projects, no matter, the end result always justifies holding an open mind!

Good luck to those who will benefit from it!

Distributed Computing:

https://www.pidramble.com

RPi 3B+ not a huge improvement but an incremental update:

https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2018/ ... comparison
Adieu

droleary
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Re: Can we make 2 Raspberry Pis work together to run/render a game?

Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:58 pm

arclite wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:03 am
Now with the RPi 3B+ and Gigabit Ethernet the communications No oh no! response is a little more redundant.
Not really. 1 Gigabit is still at least two orders of magnitude slower than what a bus like PCIe or Thunderbolt can offer. Add to that the networking protocol overhead, and the fact the RPi still drags it all over USB 2, and you've got bottlenecks all over the place. People still have to be thoughtful about how they design their distributed computing systems.

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mahjongg
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Re: Can we make 2 Raspberry Pis work together to run/render a game?

Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:04 pm

The only practical possibility I see is to let the second PI calculate and generate the sound, as a sound slave processor.
For distributed 3D rendering the channel speed between the two PI's would be something like 10,000 (ten thousand) times too slow.

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Can we make 2 Raspberry Pis work together to run/render a game?

Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:21 pm

viewtopic.php?f=45&t=190338&p=1195995#p1195995


No one has shown WHY they ask this question, or a similar one above, there is no evidence that linking 2 x RPi and all of a sudden you have doubled it capabilities.


I can buy 2 x i3 2gen x86 PCs for £350.00, so does linking the 2 make me have a £1000+ Gaming Machine ?


Well obviously not like all these Pi in the Sky Posts it is totally ludicrous notion !!!


Await the next new Post with this notion so can ROFL......
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droleary
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Re: Can we make 2 Raspberry Pis work together to run/render a game?

Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:26 am

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:21 pm
No one has shown WHY they ask this question, or a similar one above, there is no evidence that linking 2 x RPi and all of a sudden you have doubled it capabilities.
As I have said in other threads, there really should be more articles on the RPi site regarding multi-node setups. There's stuff about the OctaPi, but that's it. There really should be lessons on what you can do with 2+ machines that interact with each other using various protocols. The lack of good direction is WHY these questions are getting asked. With the RPi being so inexpensive, a lot of people for the first time have the ability to contemplate owning more than 1 computer, and what you could do with them once they're talking to each other.

ejolson
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Re: Can we make 2 Raspberry Pis work together to run/render a game?

Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:45 am

droleary wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:26 am
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:21 pm
No one has shown WHY they ask this question, or a similar one above, there is no evidence that linking 2 x RPi and all of a sudden you have doubled it capabilities.
As I have said in other threads, there really should be more articles on the RPi site regarding multi-node setups. There's stuff about the OctaPi, but that's it. There really should be lessons on what you can do with 2+ machines that interact with each other using various protocols. The lack of good direction is WHY these questions are getting asked. With the RPi being so inexpensive, a lot of people for the first time have the ability to contemplate owning more than 1 computer, and what you could do with them once they're talking to each other.
Games are a very wide category of computer program and it seems quite likely that some sort of game could be created that used multiple Pi computers. For example, Pi Zeros communicate quite easily to each other using USB and the gadget mode networking driver. I have been writing a series of posts about connecting five Pi Zeros this way and configuring them to work as a super-cheap cluster. While these posts focus on learning about high performance computing, it is interesting to have 5 GPIO blocks, 5 camera inputs, 5 sound outputs and 5 HDMI outputs available for making some sort of game.

Note that slow communication between multiple Pi computers is less of an issue with games. Each node need only respond as quickly as human perception. Moreover, the data describing the human inputs needed to determine the state of the game are likely just a few bytes compared to the gigabytes of data needed at high speeds when a cluster is used for scientific computing.

Once cores and nodes become cheap enough, then parallel processing is a natural idea. The Pi 3B is definitely cheap enough for shared memory symmetric multiprocessing while five Zeros are cheap enough for a distributed-memory cluster. One of the original goals of Raspberry Pi is bring back the programming expertise students used to learn from using 8-bit microcomputers before entering the university. Given how cheap the Pi is, it should be possible to advance beyond those 8-bit times so that students entering the university already have parallel programming expertise.

The reason this question keeps coming up is because multiple cores and clusters are so cheap that everyone wants to make efficient use of them. Rather than sticking with non-parallel techniques until quantum computing becomes practical, it makes more sense, in my opinion, to teach people how to use current parallel technologies.

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Can we make 2 Raspberry Pis work together to run/render a game?

Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:12 am

ejolson wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:45 am
droleary wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:26 am
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:21 pm
No one has shown WHY they ask this question, or a similar one above, there is no evidence that linking 2 x RPi and all of a sudden you have doubled it capabilities.
As I have said in other threads, there really should be more articles on the RPi site regarding multi-node setups. There's stuff about the OctaPi, but that's it. There really should be lessons on what you can do with 2+ machines that interact with each other using various protocols. The lack of good direction is WHY these questions are getting asked. With the RPi being so inexpensive, a lot of people for the first time have the ability to contemplate owning more than 1 computer, and what you could do with them once they're talking to each other.
Games are a very wide category of computer program and it seems quite likely that some sort of game could be created that used multiple Pi computers. For example, Pi Zeros communicate quite easily to each other using USB and the gadget mode networking driver. I have been writing a series of posts about connecting five Pi Zeros this way and configuring them to work as a super-cheap cluster. While these posts focus on learning about high performance computing, it is interesting to have 5 GPIO blocks, 5 camera inputs, 5 sound outputs and 5 HDMI outputs available for making some sort of game.

Note that slow communication between multiple Pi computers is less of an issue with games. Each node need only respond as quickly as human perception. Moreover, the data describing the human inputs needed to determine the state of the game are likely just a few bytes compared to the gigabytes of data needed at high speeds when a cluster is used for scientific computing.

Once cores and nodes become cheap enough, then parallel processing is a natural idea. The Pi 3B is definitely cheap enough for shared memory symmetric multiprocessing while five Zeros are cheap enough for a distributed-memory cluster. One of the original goals of Raspberry Pi is bring back the programming expertise students used to learn from using 8-bit microcomputers before entering the university. Given how cheap the Pi is, it should be possible to advance beyond those 8-bit times so that students entering the university already have parallel programming expertise.

The reason this question keeps coming up is because multiple cores and clusters are so cheap that everyone wants to make efficient use of them. Rather than sticking with non-parallel techniques until quantum computing becomes practical, it makes more sense, in my opinion, to teach people how to use current parallel technologies.

Still not answering the Original question, which was not about Clustering in any form.

It was about joining 2 RPi 3 together to act as an Octa-Core SBC !!!!!

Still no one is stating why they think this is feasible.............and therefore ask this question.
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droleary
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Re: Can we make 2 Raspberry Pis work together to run/render a game?

Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:56 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:12 am
Still no one is stating why they think this is feasible.............and therefore ask this question.
Again, I don't think you're understanding the role of the RPi as an educational tool. They're asking because they don't know what is and isn't feasible. And raspberrypi.org offers very little guidance/documentation on what projects you can investigate when you start connecting more than one RPi.

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Can we make 2 Raspberry Pis work together to run/render a game?

Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:53 pm

droleary wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:56 pm
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:12 am
Still no one is stating why they think this is feasible.............and therefore ask this question.
Again, I don't think you're understanding the role of the RPi as an educational tool. They're asking because they don't know what is and isn't feasible. And raspberrypi.org offers very little guidance/documentation on what projects you can investigate when you start connecting more than one RPi.

"""Can we pair through bluetooth, 2x Raspberry Pi 3 or more Raspberry Pi 3 to run/render faster a game/program like Chromium?"""

That was the question and all I wanted to know is how the OP arrived at this notion in this Post and his other one, as googling does only elicit various forms of what is loosely described as 'Clustering'
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jamesh
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Re: Can we make 2 Raspberry Pis work together to run/render a game?

Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:58 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:53 pm
droleary wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:56 pm
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:12 am
Still no one is stating why they think this is feasible.............and therefore ask this question.
Again, I don't think you're understanding the role of the RPi as an educational tool. They're asking because they don't know what is and isn't feasible. And raspberrypi.org offers very little guidance/documentation on what projects you can investigate when you start connecting more than one RPi.

"""Can we pair through bluetooth, 2x Raspberry Pi 3 or more Raspberry Pi 3 to run/render faster a game/program like Chromium?"""

That was the question and all I wanted to know is how the OP arrived at this notion in this Post and his other one, as googling does only elicit various forms of what is loosely described as 'Clustering'
Because CS education is lacking?

People see GPU boards being bolted together and slapped in desktops to improve performance. They see Raspberry Pi's, and wonder if the same can be done.

It's not difficult to see where the confusion arises.

So instead of complaining about why the question keeps coming up, consider educating instead.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Please direct all questions to the forum, I do not do support via PM.

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Can we make 2 Raspberry Pis work together to run/render a game?

Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:02 pm

Twin Graphics or Dual CPUs are both feasible but within a single machine, not two differing machines bolted together and communicating by network protocol.



OK the best use of 2 or more RPi is as a "Cluster" for running software which has been compiled to function in this scenario.

That still will not double the processing power of 2 x RPi or treble the processing power of 3 X RPi, in fact there are faster SBC machines which are more cost effective.


Therefore jgeerling is a good read:

http://www.pidramble.com/wiki
pi-dramble-ha-architecture-diagram.jpg


Yes educationally "Clustering" is an interesting subject and the RPi is a cheap way of learning.....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_cluster


AlsoDistributed Computing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributed_computing

...and Parallel Computing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_computing



Though none of the above will allow chromium-browser for the OP to function better.....
Last edited by fruitoftheloom on Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:39 am, edited 3 times in total.
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jamesh
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Re: Can we make 2 Raspberry Pis work together to run/render a game?

Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:33 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:02 pm
jamesh wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:58 pm
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:53 pm



"""Can we pair through bluetooth, 2x Raspberry Pi 3 or more Raspberry Pi 3 to run/render faster a game/program like Chromium?"""

That was the question and all I wanted to know is how the OP arrived at this notion in this Post and his other one, as googling does only elicit various forms of what is loosely described as 'Clustering'
Because CS education is lacking?

People see GPU boards being bolted together and slapped in desktops to improve performance. They see Raspberry Pi's, and wonder if the same can be done.

It's not difficult to see where the confusion arises.

So instead of complaining about why the question keeps coming up, consider educating instead.


Twin Graphics or Dual CPUs are both feasible but within a single machine, not two differing machines bolted together and communicating by network protocol.
And we know that, but the posters don't. So rather than question why they don't know that...

Education, Education, Education.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Please direct all questions to the forum, I do not do support via PM.

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