Dexterp37
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Re: USB packet loss.

Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:18 am

I'm sorry to get into the thread with a problem which might be unrelated.

As discussed in another thread we are having hard times with making the Microsoft Kinect work on the RPi with some opensource drivers based on libusb.

Could this USB bug be the cause of the symptoms described in this post?

lostintime
Posts: 29
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Re: USB packet loss.

Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:01 am

jamesh wrote:
lostintime wrote:
jamesh wrote:
But, there is progress, and the issue is being taken seriously, contrary to what some people seem to believe.
Not seriously enough. The USB issues won't just be specific to the Raspberry Pi but will affect anything else that uses the BCM2835 SoC.
All the current other uses of the 2835 seem to be fine - probably because they don't use the USB in the same way.It's an old chip - all new users are on different chips now (and again, don't usually use the USB in the same way)
What other devices use the BCM2835 SoC?

DAFlippers
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Re: USB packet loss.

Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:23 pm

lostintime wrote:
jamesh wrote:All the current other uses of the 2835 seem to be fine - probably because they don't use the USB in the same way.It's an old chip - all new users are on different chips now (and again, don't usually use the USB in the same way)
What other devices use the BCM2835 SoC?
Perhaps the question should be "are there any other implementations using BCM2835 SoC as an USB host rather than an USB device"?

David

jamesh
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Re: USB packet loss.

Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:27 pm

lostintime wrote:
jamesh wrote:
lostintime wrote:
What other devices use the BCM2835 SoC?
The Roku2 uses the 2835.
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DAFlippers
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Re: USB packet loss.

Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:56 pm

jamesh wrote:
The Roku2 uses the 2835.
From Cnet review:
".... the Roku 2 XS also include a USB port on the right side. Supported media includes MP4 (H.264) video, AAC and MP3 audio, and JPEG and PNG photos".

"The bad: .... and USB file support is very limited".

So it has a host implementation but with very limited connectivity - connectivity that works on RPi.

Are there any other implementations with host mode USB?

David

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jbeale
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Re: USB packet loss.

Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:50 pm

I think the "limited support" the Roku2 review is talking about refers to the media file formats, in other words, support at a higher system level than the issues we're discussing here. But to be sure, I doubt people are trying to hang several 7-port hubs, or a Kinect, off the Ruku2's USB hub...

DAFlippers
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Re: USB packet loss.

Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:02 pm

jbeale wrote: But to be sure, I doubt people are trying to hang several 7-port hubs, or a Kinect, off the Ruku2's USB hub...

Precisely.

David

thexman
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Re: USB packet loss.

Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:01 pm

well to be precise i am hanging 2 x 13 port powered Hubs with power selection switches per channel so i can isolate a test device when its failing for example its quite useful on windoZ7 and other Linux machines, works well i now have a demo box running with 24 devices these add up to around 40 outputs and 30 inputs still pushing the USB data to max and the computers don't even break a sweat and some of the Linux boards are only 1Ghz Arm systems i have a Pico board running at 1.2Ghz all with 1gb of memory, and just arrived although no Linux yet a APC bicycle for my mind board :)

and yes i know the Pi is 700mhz and 256mb but the code i am using is currently compiled to around 60mb with out any graphics just text based code with manual data entry for settings etc. and the Pi would handle this i am sure if only the USB issue improves soon.
one armed controls engineer, my grammar is bad but lets face it most keyboards don't suit a one armed man

thexman
Posts: 259
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Re: USB packet loss.

Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:44 pm

did any one confirm that the fault has now been sorted yet or are we still awaiting a definitive answer from RPI foundation

thanks Bump otherwise to remind them not that they have forgotten its just a gentle note of please please please please fix this problem please.
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obcd
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Re: USB packet loss.

Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:24 pm

Just check my post 102 on the elephant thread and the 2 posts below that...
Dom has released a new kernel 3.2.27+ #12. I am about to try that one now.
First results from people testing can be found in the same thread.

thexman
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Re: USB packet loss.

Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:56 pm

Does the latest kernel fix the issue or just more we fixed something but not the actual issue
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gabello
Posts: 51
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Re: USB packet loss.

Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:12 pm

For me with the latest kernel and dwc_otg.microframe_schedule=1 in cmd file the frequency of occurrence of the usb issues reduced significantly, but the problem still appears every couples of days.

thexman
Posts: 259
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Re: USB packet loss.

Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:54 pm

Anyone confirm a complete fix yet ? Or just some items working ?? Thanks to anyone who can confirm
one armed controls engineer, my grammar is bad but lets face it most keyboards don't suit a one armed man

thexman
Posts: 259
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Re: USB packet loss.

Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:23 pm

i take it the revision 2 board has not fixed the USB issues if it has can i send back the 4 revision 1 for refund and get 4 revision 2 boards in place.?
one armed controls engineer, my grammar is bad but lets face it most keyboards don't suit a one armed man

jamesh
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Re: USB packet loss.

Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:29 pm

No, this issue is a software problem. Are you still seeing the problem with all the latest code and tweaks in config.txt?
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thexman
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Re: USB packet loss.

Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:39 pm

jamesh

any chance of some one posting all this information that fixes the issues in one place so i can read it and action the information, theres now over 10 posts about USB some fix here some fix there, its all too confusing can the admins make a definitive fix for all, and post the answer..

i am fed up of having 4 Rpi boards and no progress on getting them working with our product, development has stalled and its costing me money to sit here and do nothing with the project shame really as it was a great use of the Pi in a very cost effective product, it was never going to save the world from self destruction but it would have eased lots of peoples lives.
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jamesh
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Re: USB packet loss.

Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:42 pm

You are talking as if everyone who has a pi has the problem, which they don't. 2x13 ways ports is an extreme case! If development has stalled and you are sitting on your hands wasting money, you should be able to get through the threads and get most of the important information. Or presumably you can dev your software on a.n.other Linux box for prototyping.

But I see what you mean about the complexity of the Elephant thread. I'll talk to Dom tomorrow and see what can be done to collate all the information (it may already be done on the WIki - I don't know).
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
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thexman
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Re: USB packet loss.

Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:27 pm

thank you

i didn't mean every one has an issue its just most of what i have read is all the V1 and v1.1 Hid Usb devices having some issue some people don't even notice the key stoke issue on some keyboards there just living with it, the 26 devices are happily working with out issue on a Igep2 board

i have developed the system and its currently soak testing on a Igep2 board running puppy Linux how ever at over 6 times the Price of a pi and the fact its made in Spain and i don't speak Spanish, my own fault for holidaying in the uk i guess all though apparently shouting two more larger por pa vor works in Spain.

i would as a British company love now the Pi's are being produced in wales at least like to use the pi, all the software is ready once the pi can communicate without problems i can launch, i could launch with the Igep2 but supply isn't like the Pi and the cost simply puts me in with the other so so systems with no advantage over them

and to be honest the first 100 systems ill have to pay for my self, as theres no trust in any industry until something is proven as working for a period of time, and accepted by the industry as a good product this will require me to show the working devices in a day to day operation and get feed back from customers on them
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clog
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Re: USB packet loss.

Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:15 pm

Jamesh wrote:
You are talking as if everyone who has a pi has the problem, which they don't.
Well, Jamesh not everyone has a problem. But there is another category of users that is eagerly awaiting a solution for the packet loss problem. I'm talking about the people that want to use the Raspberry as a quality audio streamer. Right now I use my Synology NAS (with ARM processor) to run MPD (Music Player Daemon). It even plays hires audio without hiccups. As it needs some hacking to run MPD on this NAS it's not an ideal solution. I can't upgrade the NAS software without destroying the MPD setup.
When I first read about the Raspberry it seemed an ideal platform for a headless MPD streamer, so I ordered one. My experience is that 16 bits 44,1 khz material is mostly ok. But with higher data rates for instance 24 bit material distortion is awful. I think the cause of the distortion is packet loss. And that is a pity. I'm convinced that the Raspberry cpu is capable of playing hires music without problems and I still think it can be a perfect audio platform. So Jamesh I hope there will be a solution, because the Raspberry's low power consumption, small dimensions, low heat radiation etc. make it extremely suitable for “always on” audio use.

clog
Posts: 11
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Re: USB packet loss.

Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:20 pm

I have to add to my previous post that I use the Raspberry with an external USB soundcard ( The ODAC) capable of 24 bits 96 khz.

jamesh
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Re: USB packet loss.

Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:21 pm

clog wrote:
Jamesh wrote:
You are talking as if everyone who has a pi has the problem, which they don't.
Well, Jamesh not everyone has a problem. But there is another category of users that is eagerly awaiting a solution for the packet loss problem. I'm talking about the people that want to use the Raspberry as a quality audio streamer. Right now I use my Synology NAS (with ARM processor) to run MPD (Music Player Daemon). It even plays hires audio without hiccups. As it needs some hacking to run MPD on this NAS it's not an ideal solution. I can't upgrade the NAS software without destroying the MPD setup.
When I first read about the Raspberry it seemed an ideal platform for a headless MPD streamer, so I ordered one. My experience is that 16 bits 44,1 khz material is mostly ok. But with higher data rates for instance 24 bit material distortion is awful. I think the cause of the distortion is packet loss. And that is a pity. I'm convinced that the Raspberry cpu is capable of playing hires music without problems and I still think it can be a perfect audio platform. So Jamesh I hope there will be a solution, because the Raspberry's low power consumption, small dimensions, low heat radiation etc. make it extremely suitable for “always on” audio use.
Of course there are people who need fixes, that's understood, and some very clever people at Broadcom (not me!) are working on this issue. However, it's a nasty problem (maybe more than one, see elephant thread), and it will take time. There have already been some very useful improvements but it's not perfect yet. However, those improvements means many many more people do not see the issue. For the educational side of the market (i.e. school children learning to program), it's pretty much OK as it is now, but we will continue to work on it to get it as good as we can.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
“I think it’s wrong that only one company makes the game Monopoly.” – Steven Wright

fredjam
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Re: USB packet loss.

Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:58 am

People say really silly things like 'I read that the Raspberry Pi would make an ideal hi-fi media
streamer so I ordered one'.
The implication here is that somehow the Foundation have disappointed them and the FOUNDATION
HAVE A MORAL DUTY to make a Pi play 24bit audio files from a usb sound card. They don't.

This is all nonsense and irritating nonsense. What you thought the Pi would do because you read
and believed some half baked article in the press is not something for the Foundation to fix.
The Foundation produced a board for educational purposes and they are making it work for those
educational purposes. Those educational purposes do not include playing 24 bit sound files
from a usb sound card. Maybe you should make that work yourself.

The Raspberry Pi foundation never promised anyone that the pi would make a cheap hi-fi
media player nor did they sell it on that basis. I am tired of reading these whining posts from
ungrateful people. The improvements in the Pi's software are being made by people who are
working for free and the last thing they need is the constant whining of idiots who believe
everything they read in the computer press.

I use my Pi for playing CD quality audio and HD video, it does both of these things really well
with the latest version of Raspbian with the latest USB patch but that is not why I bought it. I
have other projects in mind.

richtoy
Posts: 14
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Re: USB packet loss.

Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:47 am

You articulated my thoughts very accurately :D

obcd
Posts: 917
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Re: USB packet loss.

Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:56 pm

What you guys think the foundation should or shouldn't do isn't very helpfull for people facing a dissapointment.
It's not only the Press spreading misleading information. The FAQ here still states that the Pi will run fine on 4 AA batteries. To my knowledge, with fresh batteries that's a 6V supply?
Besides that, the guy was asking very polite that he hoped the issue would be resolved. There was no need to start flaming about him whining that his setup isn't working.
It's the purpose of a forum troubleshooting section to figure out why things don't work for people, so that others can use it as a troubleshooting guide.

clog
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:35 am

Re: USB packet loss.

Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:17 pm

Fredjam wrote
People say really silly things like 'I read that the Raspberry Pi would make an ideal hi-fi media
streamer so I ordered one'.
Fredjam your quote is not correct. I didn't say that. When the Raspberry was announced I saw the specs as publiced by the foundation and realised it could be perfect for high quality audio streaming.
That the Raspberry was meant for educational use was made clear by the foundation. No problem at all.
But the fact is that the USB bus is designed to carry large amounts of data without losing packets. Many educational projects will transport vast amounts of data over the bus. In this respect plugging in a USB-DAC and feed it with 24 bits data is nothing exceptional. I'm not plugging in 20 devices, just one. So packet loss could be problematic for the target group also. So I understand and appreciate that the foundation is doing its utmost to clear the issue at hand. I like to emphasize that english is not my native language and that it's not my intention to be rude or ungrateful.

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