PiTommi
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RPi4 poweroff - still on?

Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:43 pm

Specs

Raspberry Pi 4B 4GB Ram
Raspbian version 10

Problem

Before when I shutdown the Pi through the "start button" on the desktop and selected shutdown the Pi would turn off completely. The red/green lights, the ethernet and case fans would all turn off. However after the OS upgrade to version 10 (don't remeber previous version). This has completely stopped. I can't access the Pi anymore but, like its on as usual. What happened? I have tried to shutdown the Pi from the terminal with all kinds of commands but no change in poweroff behaviour of the Pi. Am I missing something?

Additionally
Regarding power consumption. I have a power meter behind the power adapter but the amps seem totallty off no matter what I do it reads around 40-60 milli amps with around 50 in powerfactor but at least 4W. The amps seem really low, this still reads so little during retrogameplays like N64 games (not checked the wattage though). Any recommendations?

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DougieLawson
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Re: RPi4 poweroff - still on?

Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:55 pm

Run sudo apt update;sudo apt dist-upgrade-y;sudo reboot then retest. There's been some firmware changes in this area.

To automate power off completely you should look at adding external hardware in the form of a WittyPi2.
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hippy
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Re: RPi4 poweroff - still on?

Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:54 pm

PiTommi wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:43 pm
Before when I shutdown the Pi through the "start button" on the desktop and selected shutdown the Pi would turn off completely. The red/green lights, the ethernet and case fans would all turn off.
No Pi has ever been able to turn off completely, except with an external mechanism to remove power. The 5V input remains connected and will always be powering some parts of the system.

It may be that shutdown used to turn off the red power LED so it appeared to be completely powered-off when it wasn't, and now doesn't do that.

If that's the case, the question becomes; why did a shutdown turn the red power LED off but now doesn't ? I have no answer for that myself.

sparkyhall
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Re: RPi4 poweroff - still on?

Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:25 pm

The default boot loader config was changed some time ago so that the 3V3 now remains on after a system halt because some hats did not like having a 5V supply without 3V3. You can change back to the previous behaviour by changing the defaults for "WAKE_ON_GPIO" and "POWER_OFF_ON_HALT", for details see the following link:

https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentati ... _config.md

PiTommi
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Re: RPi4 poweroff - still on?[SOLVED]

Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:21 pm

Hi!

Thanks for the inputs!

However, sparkyhall's input solved the problem and is definetly usefull for the future. I suspected some changes, maybe due to WOL implementation or similar but good to know it's mainly a HAT thing. In any case this is what I did by following the link provided, in the bootconf.txt I changed to:

WAKE_ON_GPIO=0
POWER_OFF_ON_HALT=1

Now it's back as it was previously. I also want to confirm that the experienced changes are coinciding with the bootloader versions that I guess came with the raspbian image update.

Would the previous powerstate before this change be analogous to hibernation in windows?

Finally, maybe someone have an input on the power consumption thingy? Any idea why the power meter shows a low amp (and low power factor) and do you think I should trust the wattage?

trejan
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Re: RPi4 poweroff - still on?[SOLVED]

Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:35 pm

PiTommi wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:21 pm
Would the previous powerstate before this change be analogous to hibernation in windows?
No. There is no suspend, hibernation or WoL on the Pi.

When POWER_OFF_ON_HALT=0, the Pi 4 would act like all the previous Pi boards and shutdown the ARM cores but leave the VPU running the firmware. It would wait for something to pull GPIO3 low to restart.

When POWER_OFF_ON_HALT=1, the Pi 4 would shutdown everything including the PMIC which would cause the 3.3V rail to be disabled. This caused problems for HATs that backfed 3.3V into the Pi 4 from their own onboard 3.3V voltage regulator. The PMIC would refuse to restart because it would monitor the outputs for proper power sequencing. It would see a voltage on the 3.3V rail and not power up. The default was changed because of this. People relying on the GPIO3 wake up feature would also need to change it.
PiTommi wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:21 pm
I also want to confirm that the experienced changes are coinciding with the bootloader versions that I guess came with the raspbian image update.
Yes.
PiTommi wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:21 pm
Finally, maybe someone have an input on the power consumption thingy? Any idea why the power meter shows a low amp (and low power factor) and do you think I should trust the wattage?
Switched mode power supplies have a very bad power factor unless they have active power factor correction circuitry. The Pi 4 + PSU shouldn't draw very much current so if you're measuring the mains side then I'd expect a very low current draw.

PiTommi
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Re: RPi4 poweroff - still on?

Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:07 am

Thanks trejan!

Yes, the power meter is used from the mains and has been used for the main PC but that one had really good power factor around 95 (seasonic PSU ) vs RPi4 around 55.
It just seems counter intuitive that the RPi power supply draws less than what it gives by a factor 10. Maybe I'm missing something out on the AC/DC transformation principle or the power meter have bad resolution.
Do you maybe have a recommendation or even a project one can build for better power measurements of the RPi4?

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davidcoton
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Re: RPi4 poweroff - still on?

Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:31 am

PiTommi wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:07 am
It just seems counter intuitive that the RPi power supply draws less than what it gives by a factor 10.
It doesn't, unless RPT have found a solution to the world energy crisis.

Are you measuring the input with the Pi powered down?
Documentation here suggests that a halted Pi4 draws around 120mW!

In use, the actual PSU power output will be rather less than the power input. Without a power meter between the PSU and the Pi, you don't know what that power output is -- the maximum for the board itself is 6.25W, idle only 3W. With most mains plug-in power meters, very low readings (below 10W, rough rule of thumb) are not very accurate anyway so you don't really know the input power either.
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user12345
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Re: RPi4 poweroff - still on?

Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:11 pm

davidcoton wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:31 am
Are you measuring the input with the Pi powered down?
Documentation here suggests that a halted Pi4 draws around 120mW!

In use, the actual PSU power output will be rather less than the power input. Without a power meter between the PSU and the Pi, you don't know what that power output is -- the maximum for the board itself is 6.25W, idle only 3W. With most mains plug-in power meters, very low readings (below 10W, rough rule of thumb) are not very accurate anyway so you don't really know the input power either.
They maybe forget a 0. My one takes 1.3W at 230V side, if you subtract the PSU efficency it would around 1200mW.
It shows 0W on previous PI Versions(same SD Card, same PSU). And cause the Network LEDs are still active it seems not really powered down.

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davidcoton
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Re: RPi4 poweroff - still on?

Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:25 pm

user12345 wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:11 pm
They maybe forget a 0. My one takes 1.3W at 230V side, if you subtract the PSU efficency it would around 1200mW.
It shows 0W on previous PI Versions(same SD Card, same PSU). And cause the Network LEDs are still active it seems not really powered down.
I think the figures are correct. 120mW is for a Pi4 HALTed (and 3V3 powered down). From your description, yours may be HALTed, but 3V3 is still active. Read the rest of this thread for an explanation (POWER_OFF_ON_HALT setting).
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PiTommi
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Re: RPi4 poweroff - still on?

Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:57 pm

Thanks for the last responses guys! :)

So having the power meter at the mains reads around 40-60mA but around 6W while on idle in raspbian os but with power factor of 50. Without knowing the power need of the Pi I would expect 10 times that at least in regards to Amps. But I have watched youtube videos etc and my readings doesn't seem accurate. It seems the resolution of the power meter is low, it's nothing fancy but nonetheless a disappointment that it can't handle better resolution of lower power devices. The reason this is interesting for me to know is that I wanted to study the Pis power consumption with different OSs and loads. This would also account for future portability i.e powerbank need.
I have seen people having custom devices plugged between the Pis USB and the PSU output but not sure exactly what to do. Anyone having a recommendation or what would you do?

user12345
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Re: RPi4 poweroff - still on?

Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:41 am

davidcoton wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:25 pm
I think the figures are correct. 120mW is for a Pi4 HALTed (and 3V3 powered down). From your description, yours may be HALTed, but 3V3 is still active. Read the rest of this thread for an explanation (POWER_OFF_ON_HALT setting).
I read about it, but the PI2/PI3 deliver 3V3 while they switched off and the powermeter shows 0.0W.
If you make a Table you should be take the same conditions for all Pi´s.
The PI4 powers 3V3 cause extern board could get defective, cause they not build for it and on any other PI
3V3 stays after shutdown. Cause keeping 3V3 is the default, and the PI4 seems not able to keep GPIO 3V3 while
switching the other parts off.
PiTommi wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:57 pm
I have seen people having custom devices plugged between the Pis USB and the PSU output but not sure exactly what to do. Anyone having a recommendation or what would you do?
A power meter for 230V is about +-0.2W, some +-0.6W and some +-0.1W. This result is with the power that
the PSU take for itself. The efficency is about 76-90% depending on the PSU Model.

The devices between PSU and USB are power meters for 5V, they are usual at +-0.5%. You get them on ebay.
If you dont want to buy one you can take the Voltage and then Ampere with a usual Multimeter and multiply the one
with the other to get Watt.

GTom4544
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Re: RPi4 poweroff - still on?

Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:14 pm

user12345 wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:41 am

The devices between PSU and USB are power meters for 5V, they are usual at +-0.5%. You get them on ebay.
If you dont want to buy one you can take the Voltage and then Ampere with a usual Multimeter and multiply the one
with the other to get Watt.
I have a USB power meter, it says 280mA @5.0V when my Pi 4 2GB is powered down. Nothing plugged in the USB's that's 1.4W on the Pi and 2W at the wall. I don't remember what I had on the 3B+ but unlikely that much.

cleverca22
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Re: RPi4 poweroff - still on?

Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:38 am

GTom4544 wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:14 pm
user12345 wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:41 am

The devices between PSU and USB are power meters for 5V, they are usual at +-0.5%. You get them on ebay.
If you dont want to buy one you can take the Voltage and then Ampere with a usual Multimeter and multiply the one
with the other to get Watt.
I have a USB power meter, it says 280mA @5.0V when my Pi 4 2GB is powered down. Nothing plugged in the USB's that's 1.4W on the Pi and 2W at the wall. I don't remember what I had on the 3B+ but unlikely that much.
is that with POWER_OFF_ON_HALT or WAKE_ON_GPIO?

GTom4544
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Re: RPi4 poweroff - still on?

Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:55 am

cleverca22 wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:38 am
GTom4544 wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:14 pm
I have a USB power meter, it says 280mA @5.0V when my Pi 4 2GB is powered down. Nothing plugged in the USB's that's 1.4W on the Pi and 2W at the wall. I don't remember what I had on the 3B+ but unlikely that much.
is that with POWER_OFF_ON_HALT or WAKE_ON_GPIO?
WAKE_ON_GPIO=1
POWER_OFF_ON_HALT=0

Still, 1.4W sounds more than anything I've found anywhere, not far from desktop idle...

Switching the config to "normal" GPIO=0/HALT=1 cuts the consumption to around 2-300 mW

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