jamesh
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Re: Buster OS Bugs

Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:25 pm

Most Pi's are NOT used as IOT devices. They are not particularly suited to it being relatively high power.

The latest firmware (both the GPU and the USB hub firmware) can decrease idle temperatures (and therefor bust temperatures as well) by a considerable amount - up to 10degs, if not more.

Buster is no more or less buggy that previous version of the OS. All OS's have myriads of bugs in them., you cannot have 10 million lines of code that are all correct. Whilst I prefer car analogies, the recent Boeing Starliner flight had (at least) one tiny little software bug in it. That will probably end up costing at least $350M. And that is code from highly skilled safety critical software engineers.

Lots of misinformation in this thread.
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LTolledo
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Re: Buster OS Bugs

Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:45 pm

jamesh wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:25 pm
Lots of misinformation in this thread.
.... and am still waiting for OP's "... hundred new bugs to solve" list (at least 80 of those)

and the "evidence to back up claim that most times rpi is used as an IOT device" as required by thagrol

...it seems that the OP can't even produce such.... :roll:
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user12345
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Re: Buster OS Bugs

Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:36 pm

thagrol wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:13 pm
Strictly issues relating to Raspbian Buster not additional software you have installed whether from apt or not.
Then the assuming that Rasbian developer check the Software that they add to their distribution is completly wrong.
You get incompatible Software.
But why linux use different Distributions then, they could all put it on one server. They mean incompatiblity is the problem of the users.

thagrol wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:13 pm
That's not broken by design. That's designed to prevent failure. Many laptops and desktops do the same. Would you send them back too? Or would you rather they shutdown abruptly without warning, without a chance to save your data, and without a proper OS level shutdown?
If my laptop would trottle(without my fault like not cleaning it or cover the Fanholes) i would send it back. Thats would be a broken Thermal Design.
thagrol wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:13 pm
Things change. Was the move from sysV init to systemd broken by design? The change from /etc/network/interfaces to /etc/dhcpcd.conf for interface configuration? Apple's change from the 30 pin connector to the lightning connector?
dont know about sysV/systemd it dont broke the Software i use. /etc/network/interfaces works fine. Lightning connector is trash, Power Pin oxidize after 2 Month on IPhone7.
thagrol wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:13 pm
German law may be as strict as you claim but here's the thing: A Pi (any model) and a TV are not the same when it comes to software. When you buy a TV all the software is preinstalled and may not be upgradeable. When you buy a pi 4B the only software you're buying is the initial bootstrap burnt into the SoC and the contents of the EEPROM. The second can be updated, the first can't. Raspbian isn't sold to you and isn't part of the Pi.
In Germany you can give stuff back even if the color dont match to your Table. Some stuff maybe a problem in 2 years, but i send back already
DVD Recoders after 1.8 years, they didnt fix the bugs and i got my full money back.

thagrol wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:13 pm
Why can the user enter "sudo rm -rf /*" if it destroys the system?
You talk stupid stuff now. Everyone knows that rm can delete things, nobody(that dont tryed before) knows that apt upgrade/dist-upgrade brokes the system. And really no end user use apt to install software, what todo with a PI?! Browsing the web works cheaper and easyer on used Windows Computer.
thagrol wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:13 pm
How about the same place you'd get the current source: the project's website? Though frankly if you couldn't work that out for yourself linux probably isn't the OS for you.
I dont have the current source. On Jessi all Software that i install via apt-get worked so i never needed the sources.
From github i can get the actual source but not the old ones as far i know.
Yeah Linux sux, its on stablity level below Windows meanwhile and the compatibly level is deep deep below.
From Windows 95 to Windows 10 the same VNC&other Software still works...
jamesh wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:25 pm
Most Pi's are NOT used as IOT devices. They are not particularly suited to it being relatively high power.

The latest firmware (both the GPU and the USB hub firmware) can decrease idle temperatures (and therefor bust temperatures as well) by a considerable amount - up to 10degs, if not more.
Dont know maybe it lost in translation. IOT is too using the PI as LAN Camera for example they original too use about 3W or Server.
A Camera is a thing and LAN connect it to the Internet.
I dont mean connecting a Temprature Sensor to your LAN Network, for that Arduino is the choice. Or in other words a PI is most times
not connected to a Monitor. Mediaplayers&Browsers are build in the Television&Receivers nowdays. Some few use it as a game emulator and
a mini Display or on TV.

There is no decrease in Temprature from 09/19 Firmware(image) to 12/19 Firmware. That must be a earlier Firmware you talk about, maybe the first Public one.

Yes its really 99% offtopic here, i dont know why people talk about generic stuff that has nothing todo with a Bug solution/Technical Help.
Maybe they alone on Holidays noone to talk? I assumed that here are competent developers from the Raspbian OS to help people to
troubleshoot Bugs. On Linux the Developer that are happy about bug reports to improve&fix their Software became rare.
The best you can get is "the other developer is fault"(both dev´s tell that) or "there is no fault"(even with Screenshoots and Logs) or "its difficult to reproduce"(with other words: im to lazy).

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DougieLawson
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Re: Buster OS Bugs

Fri Dec 27, 2019 12:43 am

The best advice for the OP is

1. Find the packaging your RPi was delivered in.
2. Insert your RPi and any other bits of kit that came with it in that packaging
3. Create an RMA with your vendor
4. Return your RPi under the RMA
5. Get a refund
6. Cancel your forum membership
7. ... er.
8. That's it.
9. Happiness for everyone and no more entirely unproven claims on here

The RMA may get some pushback.
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thagrol
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Re: Buster OS Bugs

Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:30 am

user12345 wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:36 pm
thagrol wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:13 pm
Strictly issues relating to Raspbian Buster not additional software you have installed whether from apt or not.
Then the assuming that Rasbian developer check the Software that they add to their distribution is completly wrong.
No. Not at all. Checking every single pice of software in all the posible combinations is clearly impractical and would take until the heat death of the universe to complete. Trust me on this, I've decades of experience in software test and QA.

My point is that bugs in, say, apache are no more the fault of RPF/RPT than bugs in firefox are the fault of Microsoft.
You get incompatible Software.
But why linux use different Distributions then, they could all put it on one server. They mean incompatiblity is the problem of the users.
Because every man and his dog have different ways of doing the same thing. Stuff like apache are in the repositories more as a convience for end users not because the OS developers maintain them.
thagrol wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:13 pm
That's not broken by design. That's designed to prevent failure. Many laptops and desktops do the same. Would you send them back too? Or would you rather they shutdown abruptly without warning, without a chance to save your data, and without a proper OS level shutdown?
If my laptop would trottle(without my fault like not cleaning it or cover the Fanholes) i would send it back. Thats would be a broken Thermal Design.
I have to disagree there. Throttleing is part of the thermal design. Having it present does not make that thermal design broken. I also suspect that if you look into Intel's CPU design you'll find that they'll use similar tricks as well as switching off unused parts of the CPU to keep current draw and heat down. And that's with a large heatsink and fan. By your argument you'd better send your laptop/desktop back too.
thagrol wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:13 pm
Things change. Was the move from sysV init to systemd broken by design? The change from /etc/network/interfaces to /etc/dhcpcd.conf for interface configuration? Apple's change from the 30 pin connector to the lightning connector?
dont know about sysV/systemd it dont broke the Software i use. /etc/network/interfaces works fine.
Are you sure about that?
Have you disabled dhcpcd?
Is that on jessie, stretch, or buster?
Last I tried (on stretch and buster), /etc/network/interfaces was ignored unless you've either disabled dhcpcd or explictly told it to ignore specific interface(s).
Lightning connector is trash, Power Pin oxidize after 2 Month on IPhone7.
So you've sent all your ligthning port equipped Apple kit back as not fix for prupose/broken by design then? How did that go?
thagrol wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:13 pm
German law may be as strict as you claim but here's the thing: A Pi (any model) and a TV are not the same when it comes to software. When you buy a TV all the software is preinstalled and may not be upgradeable. When you buy a pi 4B the only software you're buying is the initial bootstrap burnt into the SoC and the contents of the EEPROM. The second can be updated, the first can't. Raspbian isn't sold to you and isn't part of the Pi.
In Germany you can give stuff back even if the color dont match to your Table. Some stuff maybe a problem in 2 years, but i send back already
DVD Recoders after 1.8 years, they didnt fix the bugs and i got my full money back.
Maybe so, IANAL. As has already been suggested perhaps you should send you Pi back.
thagrol wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:13 pm
Why can the user enter "sudo rm -rf /*" if it destroys the system?
You talk stupid stuff now. Everyone knows that rm can delete things,
Nope. Not at all. Someone who has always used the desktop file manager and never used the command line would be unlikely to know. You're making sweeping generalisations again.
nobody(that dont tryed before) knows that apt upgrade/dist-upgrade brokes the system. And really no end user use apt to install software,
By that argument, no end user would know how to use apt to upgrade from one major release to the next (or next but one in your case). Anyone sane would have read the RPF's documentation regarding upgrading from stretch to buster and would have know ahead of time that it
was likely to fail and was unsupported. That you clearly didn't is down to you not anyone elase.

Plus, apt upgrade/dist-upgrade within the same Raspbian release doesn't break the system. It's only when you try to use those tools to move between major versions/releases that things break. Not something an average user is likely to be doing.
what todo with a PI?!
{/quote]
Lots of things. Here's some examples of what I'm doing with some of mine:
  • NAS
  • Outgoing VPN router
  • Incoming vpn server
  • dhcp server
  • dns server
  • In car media player
  • Fake USB mass storage device so my TV can access my NAS
  • media player
  • Panoramic camera
  • Model train controller
  • and many more
Browsing the web works cheaper and easyer on used Windows Computer.
I have to disagree here. Though it does depend somewhat on which model Pi and how much of the required peripherals you already have. Just looking at the electricity bill, a Pi is much cheaper to run than a windows box.
thagrol wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:13 pm
How about the same place you'd get the current source: the project's website? Though frankly if you couldn't work that out for yourself linux probably isn't the OS for you.
I dont have the current source. On Jessi all Software that i install via apt-get worked so i never needed the sources.
From github i can get the actual source but not the old ones as far i know.
I never said you did. Try reading the documentation on git. I iamge the process would go something like cloning the repository tbhan perfoming an apropriate check out.
Yeah Linux sux, its on stablity level below Windows meanwhile and the compatibly level is deep deep below.
From Windows 95 to Windows 10 the same VNC&other Software still works...
[/quote]
I find that very unlikely. Would a 24 year old version of VNC really run on windows 10? That's what you're claiming above and what you're expecting linux to do.

jamesh wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:25 pm
Most Pi's are NOT used as IOT devices. They are not particularly suited to it being relatively high power.

The latest firmware (both the GPU and the USB hub firmware) can decrease idle temperatures (and therefor bust temperatures as well) by a considerable amount - up to 10degs, if not more.
Dont know maybe it lost in translation. IOT is too using the PI as LAN Camera for example they original too use about 3W or Server.
A Camera is a thing and LAN connect it to the Internet.
I dont mean connecting a Temprature Sensor to your LAN Network, for that Arduino is the choice. Or in other words a PI is most times
not connected to a Monitor. Mediaplayers&Browsers are build in the Television&Receivers nowdays. Some few use it as a game emulator and
a mini Display or on TV.

There is no decrease in Temprature from 09/19 Firmware(image) to 12/19 Firmware. That must be a earlier Firmware you talk about, maybe the first Public one.

Yes its really 99% offtopic here, i dont know why people talk about generic stuff that has nothing todo with a Bug solution/Technical Help.
Maybe they alone on Holidays noone to talk?
[/quote]
Now, now. There's no need for that sort of attack.
I assumed that here are competent developers from the Raspbian OS to help people to
troubleshoot Bugs.
there are. However your attitude isn't helping your case.
On Linux the Developer that are happy about bug reports to improve&fix their Software became rare.
The best you can get is "the other developer is fault"(both dev´s tell that)
rightly or wrongly, that's what develpers do. You need much harder evidence than you've provided.
or "there is no fault"(even with Screenshoots and Logs)
Did you post logs? I must have missed those. A for screen shots, the one you posted doesn't help identify where the problem actually is. Have you checked whether the same behaviour manifests on an actual console?
or "its difficult to reproduce"(with other words: im to lazy).
Things can, and often are difficult to reproduce. Especially on complex systems and where insufficient evidence has been provided with the bug report. And where the developer doesn't have direct access to your system and theirs is not identical to yours.

Posting here isn't a bug report. You need to do that via the foundation's github.

Frankly, though it may be down to English not being your first langauge (guessing that's the case from your lost in translation comment) your attitude isn't doing you any favours. You're comming across as an agrumentative, petulant child who believes himself to be the only one in the room that is correct and that is demanding special treatment from eveyone else.

Lastly, don't forget that many linux developers are volunteers with limited time to spend working on projects. Properly reported bugs get prioritised, something that's only been reported by one person is going to be at the bottom of the pile unless it's a real show stopper for everyone. Plus many developers take criticism of their code personally especially when little information is present in the bug report and the person reporting it appears to have an "attitude". You wouldn't walk up to a mother and say she hhad an ugly child and expect to get away with it but for many developers that's exactly what you're doing when reporting a bug.

Still waiting for eveidence of the "hundred bug"
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thagrol
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Re: Buster OS Bugs

Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:33 am

DougieLawson wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 12:43 am
The best advice for the OP is

1. Find the packaging your RPi was delivered in.
2. Insert your RPi and any other bits of kit that came with it in that packaging
3. Create an RMA with your vendor
4. Return your RPi under the RMA
5. Get a refund
6. Cancel your forum membership
7. ... er.
8. That's it.
9. Happiness for everyone and no more entirely unproven claims on here

The RMA may get some pushback.
Write an email to [email protected] to get your forum ID cancelled under GDPR rules.
I suspect #7 should be "never user linux again" or "learn how to write effective bug reports"
Attempts to contact me outside of these forums will be ignored unless signed in triplicate, sent in, sent back, queried, lost, found, subjected to public enquiry, lost again, and finally buried in soft peat for three months and recycled as firelighters

jamesh
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Re: Buster OS Bugs

Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:19 am

This thread gets more odd with every day. Still unsure what the problem actually is. But...

Raspbian is a Linux. 99.999% of the code in the kernel is unmodified from upstream kernel code.

Raspbian is a distro. 99.99999% of the code in the repo is unmodified from the upstream developers of whatever the app may be.

Engineers at Pi (all 10 or so) work on the remaining bits that are Pi specific. We bug fix that. We don't, and cannot, check the vast quantity of software out there in the repos to make sure it all works. We check a subset to make sure the main stuff works, and when bugs are reported in mainstream apps may take a look.
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thagrol
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Re: Buster OS Bugs

Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:20 pm

jamesh wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:19 am
This thread gets more odd with every day. Still unsure what the problem actually is. But...
TBH, neither am I.

A risk of invoking the ban hammer, several of the developers I used to work with would file this one under one of these categories:
  • An ID 10 T error.
  • Problem between keyboard and chair.
Frankly, in this case I'd be inclined to agree with them.
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user12345
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 7:06 pm

Re: Buster OS Bugs

Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:58 pm

thagrol wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:30 am
No. Not at all. Checking every single pice of software in all the posible combinations is clearly impractical and would take until the heat death of the universe to complete. Trust me on this, I've decades of experience in software test and QA.
Just supprise that many software is not in the distribution if the reason is not to few time to verify the compatiblity.
thagrol wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:13 pm
I have to disagree there. Throttleing is part of the thermal design. Having it present does not make that thermal design broken. I also suspect that if you look into Intel's CPU design you'll find that they'll use similar tricks as well as switching off unused parts of the CPU to keep current draw and heat down. And that's with a large heatsink and fan. By your argument you'd better send your laptop/desktop back too.
Throttel is a part of Microchip protection, you will find that too in Audioamplifiers. But you find too broken Amplifieres thats where the protections has fault or the permanet high heat has broken it. Thats wrong thermal design. Of cause all my laptops are testet at 100% load with prime95 as they arrive and they never trottle.
thagrol wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:13 pm
Are you sure about that?
Have you disabled dhcpcd?
Is that on jessie, stretch, or buster?
Right, there is a fix list required after wheezy they include
sudo service dhcpcd stop
sudo systemctl disable dhcpcd
thagrol wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:13 pm
So you've sent all your ligthning port equipped Apple kit back as not fix for prupose/broken by design then? How did that go?
No i have no apple products. I repair all types of Hardware. In this case the intruction to the customer was "send it back it has 2 years warranty"
thagrol wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:13 pm
Maybe so, IANAL. As has already been suggested perhaps you should send you Pi back.
I have exended Time for this cause its bought on X-Mas. No need to hurry, i can play around with it.

thagrol wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:13 pm
Plus, apt upgrade/dist-upgrade within the same Raspbian release doesn't break the system. It's only when you try to use those tools to move between major versions/releases that things break. Not something an average user is likely to be doing.
This crash too the same release(without changeing etxc/sources). I tryed not only with raspbian.
How do you think its possible to a user to go from raspberry1/2/3 to 4 and keep his software installation? You have to use Buster, cause its
the only working with PI4, but you not allowed to upgrade from another release to Buster.

thagrol wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:13 pm
Lots of things. Here's some examples of what I'm doing with some of mine:
You just confirm what i told, the most you list are no monitor applications.
And the second that you confirm is that you are not able to use it without root, cause the most of that dont
work out of the box
thagrol wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:13 pm
I have to disagree here. Though it does depend somewhat on which model Pi and how much of the required peripherals you already have. Just looking at the electricity bill, a Pi is much cheaper to run than a windows box.
PI4 needs a special PSU, a special case, different cooler, special HDMI cable...
electricity billl, my laptop use 9.5-12.9W including Display. If i connect the PI4 to a TV that use 37W or a Monitor that use 30W its not cheaper.
The TV of course has already a Browser build in.
thagrol wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:13 pm
How about the same place you'd get the current source: the project's website? Though frankly if you couldn't work that out for yourself linux probably isn't the OS for you.
thagrol wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:13 pm
I find that very unlikely. Would a 24 year old version of VNC really run on windows 10? That's what you're claiming above and what you're expecting linux to do.
VNC was later downloaded as Win95 came out. But i used the same download on CD.
I still have Software from 1998 and older that works on the new Windows Versions. Why not?
Of cause i could buy new Software, but in the case of Raspbian Buster there a 0 VNC replacements that shows
my REAL desktop identical to that was its on HDMI.
thagrol wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:13 pm
rightly or wrongly, that's what develpers do. You need much harder evidence than you've provided.

Did you post logs? I must have missed those. A for screen shots, the one you posted doesn't help identify where the problem actually is. Have you checked whether the same behaviour manifests on an actual console?

Things can, and often are difficult to reproduce. Especially on complex systems and where insufficient evidence has been provided with the bug report. And where the developer doesn't have direct access to your system and theirs is not identical to yours.
Oh, sorry i forget to tell i myself a Software devoloper. But not much for Linux, fixing a bug here and there.
Im happy about Bug reports, any that people send to me.
They provide the Information they have and i fix the bug. I even support additional hardware that ppl send
me, without taking money for it.

If they woud logs they tell about errors i had attached them.
I told i installed the Buster image from here, typed "sudo apt-get install x11vnc" and start it up and then there are garbage on screen for example with TightVNC viewer from Windows. Its a 100% reproduceable Bugreport.
You can use any console and type in it you get graphic errors at the letters you type.
thagrol wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:13 pm
Posting here isn't a bug report. You need to do that via the foundation's github.
It could be that there is a switch that fixthe problem and someone knows about it. Like HDMI/ switching off 3D/ switching off 2.hdmi...
Where exactly i know only the firmware page, there you should only post firmware related bugs?
Its not a firmware bug, cause it still works with 29/11/2019 on jessi.
thagrol wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:13 pm
Still waiting for eveidence of the "hundred bug"
You like that i post more Bugs while noone helped until now to fix a single one?

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rpdom
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Re: Buster OS Bugs

Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:10 pm

user12345 wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:58 pm
You have to use Buster, cause its the only working with PI4, but you not allowed to upgrade from another release to Buster.
"Not allowed"? It's not recommended, but there's nothing to stop you trying it. I have successfully upgrade many of mine from Stretch (and earlier) to Buster.

There are a few changes from the earlier versions (Wheezy etc.) that can cause issues, like the update of PHP to v7 and change from MySQL to MariaDB - but that is a Debian issue, not a Raspbian one and well known.
user12345 wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:58 pm
You like that i post more Bugs while noone helped until now to fix a single one?
I don't think you have posted about an actual bug yet.

Try us?

user12345
Posts: 114
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Re: Buster OS Bugs

Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:10 pm

jamesh wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:19 am
Raspbian is a Linux. 99.999% of the code in the kernel is unmodified from upstream kernel code.

Raspbian is a distro. 99.99999% of the code in the repo is unmodified from the upstream developers of whatever the app may be.

Engineers at Pi (all 10 or so) work on the remaining bits that are Pi specific. We bug fix that. We don't, and cannot, check the vast quantity of software out there in the repos to make sure it all works. We check a subset to make sure the main stuff works, and when bugs are reported in mainstream apps may take a look.
I read about this error only with a raspberry device, but too with ubuntu on raspberry. I would guess its PI specific or cause on other platforms you are not forced to upgrade the OS and cause of them there are nothing from other platforms on the net.

You doesent fix the USB bug that exist since 2015 and is not present on other platforms, cause i try with PI4(other USB Chip&Driver), cause the existence of Topic.


rpdom wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:10 pm
I have successfully upgrade many of mine from Stretch (and earlier) to Buster.
You could make a manual how you done this.
But cause Stretch dont work on PI4 and rpi-update dont install all required firmware files on PI3 to boot with a PI4...
And many Problems of Dolphin/Kwrite/Apache and so on was already on strech cause it was avoided.
If you go from jessi->stretch many of software&configuration of your installation is already lost.
Means if it would work, it just identical to download a new image&installation&configuration without copy your old documents.

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Re: Buster OS Bugs

Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:37 pm

I would suggest taking a deep breath, then calmly trying again with a bug report that details the minimum number of steps to get from a default system to the config that yolu claim is broken, with a reproducible fault.

I have been involved with Unix and Linux for a really long time, and with user groups and forums since before there was an internet and I find the Pi forums very helpful and friendly. Part of your issue I think is language related and part of it is how folks are perceiving your attitude. Raspbian works for most folks. Really it does. Makes sense as it has a very finite set of hardware configs to run on, and the base set is controlled by one company (same reason that Macs tend to be more stable than PCs). There are lots of very experienced folks that frequent these forums, including software engineers from RPT that tend to be very generous with their time. However, you (a) have to give them something to work with and (b) not come across as a small child having a tantrum. The Pi 4 and Buster is not horribly broken with hundreds of bugs experienced by the folks on here. Nor is that the case for most people since they have sold millions of then, and no mobs with torches and pitchforks have been reported. That does not mean that you do not have a very real issue with your particular configuration, but it does potentially point out that you are doing something different that most other folks. VNC is a fairly common use case and there have not been a lot of issues reported with the release of Buster.

As has been mentioned many times by many folks, while you can upgrade from release to release with Linux, it is not recommended. I have systems that are over 7 years old that have had every point release update applied. Still working. However, you cannot expect every possible combination of software packages to work. Apps get depreciated, subsystems change, libraries change, depenandacies change. The farther you are away from a default config, the more likely it is that somethings will break.

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neilgl
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Re: Buster OS Bugs

Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:37 pm

What USB bug?

GlowInTheDark
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Re: Buster OS Bugs

Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:51 pm

neilgl wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:37 pm
What USB bug?
I would assume they are talking about the power supply bug - where if you have a fancy power supply (one that costs more than the Pi itself), then under certain rare, obscure circumstances, something can go wrong with powering the Pi 4. People with axes to grind make a big fuss about this, but the establishment position is that it is no big deal.

The axes-to-grind position seems to be "You know about it; you should fix it. Right now", while the establishment position is "We've got more important fish to fry; this will get fixed at some point, but don't hold your breath".

Anyway, I'm surprised this thread hasn't been locked yet.
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2) 64 bit OSes
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PeterO
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Re: Buster OS Bugs

Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:38 pm

GlowInTheDark wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:51 pm
neilgl wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:37 pm
What USB bug?
I would assume they are talking about the power supply bug -
If you read the thread and didn't just assume you would see that the claim is that the bug has existed since 2015, thus predating the Pi4.
You doesent fix the USB bug that exist since 2015 and is not present on other platforms,


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bjtheone
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Re: Buster OS Bugs

Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:42 pm

GlowInTheDark wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:51 pm
neilgl wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:37 pm
What USB bug?
I would assume they are talking about the power supply bug - where if you have a fancy power supply (one that costs more than the Pi itself),
OP states it has been present since 2015 which means he is not talking about the USB-C power requirement/id bug on the Pi 4 which just came out in July 2019.

GlowInTheDark
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Re: Buster OS Bugs

Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:54 pm

I was assuming OP was just blowing smoke about the 2015 thing. You tend to get that when you base stuff on stuff you read in online blogs.
GitD's list of things that are not quite ready for prime time:
1) IPv6
2) 64 bit OSes
3) USB 3

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Buster OS Bugs

Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:57 pm

bjtheone wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:42 pm
GlowInTheDark wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:51 pm
neilgl wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:37 pm
What USB bug?
I would assume they are talking about the power supply bug - where if you have a fancy power supply (one that costs more than the Pi itself),
OP states it has been present since 2015 which means he is not talking about the USB-C power requirement/id bug on the Pi 4 which just came out in July 2019.


More confusion as the USB bus is different on the 4B compared to earlier RPis....

....this whole thread is farcical as our many of the OPs previous posts.
Retired disgracefully.....
......to a more gentile life !

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Re: Buster OS Bugs

Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:51 pm

There is a long standing, and UNFIXABLE* bug in the Pi<4 USB hardware that limits the number of endpoints (IIRC). This means some (only a few) USB devices don't work as well as they could, often USB sounds devices AIUI. Since the huge majority of people have no issues, it is very minor.

This bug does not exist on the Pi4 (unless you use the USB-C port in some way, as that is connected to the original controller) as its USB HW is entirely different.



* In software. The USB HW could possibly be fixed, but since it's a bought in Synopsis IP I believe getting it fixed by them is almost impossible.
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Re: Buster OS Bugs

Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:19 pm

user12345 wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:10 pm

You doesent fix the USB bug that exist since 2015 and is not present on other platforms, cause i try with PI4(other USB Chip&Driver), cause the existence of Topic.
Since this one has the highest probability of being identified as an actual bug:

What USB bug? And why is 2015 the year that it was introduced?

Also to clarify:
jamesh wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:51 pm
There is a long standing, and UNFIXABLE* bug in the Pi<4 USB hardware that limits the number of endpoints (IIRC). This means some (only a few) USB devices don't work as well as they could, often USB sounds devices AIUI. Since the huge majority of people have no issues, it is very minor.

This bug does not exist on the Pi4 (unless you use the USB-C port in some way, as that is connected to the original controller) as its USB HW is entirely different.



* In software. The USB HW could possibly be fixed, but since it's a bought in Synopsis IP I believe getting it fixed by them is almost impossible.
There are well-understood limitations of the Synopsys dwc IP as used on Pi 0, 1, 2 and 3. The IP is effectively obsolete so the number of limitations that exist are the number that will exist for all time.

Very occasionally, a new and unique issue is identified but most often it is with the (extremely complex) host driver implementation that works around the hardware deficiencies.

The "max number of endpoints" is a soft limit, but a good rule of thumb for estimating what number of devices will work satisfactorily. Constrain the number of active endpoints to less than the hardware-configured number of host channels - 8 or fewer. Note that the number of active endpoints will always be greater than or equal to the number of active devices.
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thagrol
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Re: Buster OS Bugs

Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:52 pm

I think I'm going to back away slowly from this thread.

Much as I sometimes enjoy a good arguemnt, it has to be one that's rational, polite, where all sides have the evidence to back up their positions, and are willing to change their minds.

This doesn't fit into that category.

user12345 clearly has an axe to grind. They clearly have fixed opinions that they're not going to change.

The impression the've created is that they're a stuborn, demanding, petulant child in the midle of a tantrum.

They've failed to back up their claims with eviidence despite being asked several times by several people.

They've moved both the goalposts and the ground under my feet between posts.

They're unwilliing to take even the most basic steps to solve their own problems. Or to take ownership of their own poor choices.

Despite their recent claim to be a developer, they don't unedrstand the developer mindset, nor do they understand how useless their so called bug report actually is.

A forum post, even on a foum developers frequent, is not a formal bug report.

The initial "reports" of "x11vnc has garbage graphic at changed positions how to fix that?" and "desktop entrys (copyed from Jessi worked before) i get ask everytime if i want execute/execute/open/abort. That is defined in the Desktop file inself but Buster dont get it, how to fix that?" are utterly useless as bug reports. There simply isn't enough information present. Not even to determine whether it's x11vnc or raspbian at fault.

Of those two, I suspect google at al could have answered the second one.

Before I go, I'm going to respond to a couple of things that were brought up in user12345's response to my last but one post not that I'm expecting any answer:
user12345 wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:58 pm
Right, there is a fix list required after wheezy they include
sudo service dhcpcd stop
sudo systemctl disable dhcpcd
So you had to take action yourself to get it working. I'm surprised you didn't moan about this breaking things and making your Pi unfit for purpose.
user12345 wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:58 pm
This crash too the same release(without changeing etxc/sources). I tryed not only with raspbian.
How do you think its possible to a user to go from raspberry1/2/3 to 4 and keep his software installation? You have to use Buster, cause its
the only working with PI4, but you not allowed to upgrade from another release to Buster.
What crash? You've not mentioed one before. If you tried other OS why aren't you raging at them too?
You are allowed to upgrade from a previous release but it was made quite clear (here: https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/buster ... -raspbian/) that if you do so you're on your own.
user12345 wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:58 pm
You just confirm what i told, the most you list are no monitor applications.
Nope. Listing my uses neither confirms nor denies yours. It says nothing about what you're claiming. Plus your use case is clearly headless too. You have no monitor connected and are access the console remotely via x11vnc.

I suspect you're also assuming that all of those things are running on a Pi4 with Buster. Well guess what? They're not.
user12345 wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:58 pm
And the second that you confirm is that you are not able to use it without root, cause the most of that dont
work out of the box
I fail to see how that statement is relevant and how mine confirms your postion. This is also the first time you've mentioned any need for root.
user12345 wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:58 pm
...
Oh blast it. No matter what I, or anyone else, says you're going to twist our words and maintain your position. I don't have the energy to go on or the desire to descend to your level.
Attempts to contact me outside of these forums will be ignored unless signed in triplicate, sent in, sent back, queried, lost, found, subjected to public enquiry, lost again, and finally buried in soft peat for three months and recycled as firelighters

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neilgl
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Re: Buster OS Bugs

Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:55 pm

Do you want the five minute argument or the full half hour?

LTolledo
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Re: Buster OS Bugs

Fri Dec 27, 2019 9:06 pm

so.... no at least 80 or so bug list?
and the IOT usage evidence? :o

as this thread is getting no where fast, :x
and spiralling into chaos, ......kind of reminds me of Hiryū Shōten Ha (飛竜昇天破 translated as Heaven Blast of the Dragon) :mrgreen:

.......one can't convey reason to the unreasonable.....

and as with thagrol am also bailing out of this thread. :!:
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Come to me with 'problems' and I'll help you find solutions"

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fruitoftheloom
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Re: Buster OS Bugs

Fri Dec 27, 2019 9:11 pm

LTolledo wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 9:06 pm
so.... no at least 80 or so bug list?
and the IOT usage evidence? :o

as this thread is getting no where fast, :x
and spiralling into chaos, ......kind of reminds me of Hiryū Shōten Ha (飛竜昇天破 translated as Heaven Blast of the Dragon) :mrgreen:

.......one can't convey reason to the unreasonable.....

and as with thagrol am also bailing out of this thread. :!:

The OP has had a Raspberry Pi for 5 years so should of realised it is not the ideal device for his use by now. :roll:

Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 7:06 pm
Last active: Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:32 pm
Retired disgracefully.....
......to a more gentile life !

user12345
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Re: Buster OS Bugs

Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:19 pm

bjtheone wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:37 pm
I would suggest taking a deep breath, then calmly trying again with a bug report that details the minimum number of steps to get from a default system to the config that yolu claim is broken, with a reproducible fault.
I done already.
1. take the raspbian image from here
2.type "sudo apt-get install x11vnc" thats all.
Its a fresh image, the first i done cause i want do the rest via vnc.

Wow 2015 PI4, some people are really dont read and fantasize stories maybe on drugs?
jamesh wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:51 pm
There is a long standing, and UNFIXABLE* bug in the Pi<4 USB hardware that limits the number of endpoints (IIRC). This means some (only a few) USB devices don't work as well as they could, often USB sounds devices AIUI. Since the huge majority of people have no issues, it is very minor.
This bug does not exist on the Pi4 (unless you use the USB-C port in some way, as that is connected to the original controller) as its USB HW is entirely different.
jdb wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:19 pm
What USB bug? And why is 2015 the year that it was introduced?
I switched 2015 from PI1 to PI3 cause of cpu power.
Cause PI3 dont work with wheezy i have to change the distribution/firmware.
The PI1 worked before with wifi 24hours 7 day/week about 2years without a single interrupt.
It had 1xWifi 1xCamera 640x480, now 1xWifi 2xCamera 1280x720.


Its still that USB Bug:
https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/view ... p?t=206815

My quess is the webcams/ethernet run cause of the transfer mode on a higher priority the data from wifi sticks are not catched fast enough->fifo overrun. Unexplainabe is why that kills wlan0, if a Ethernet packed is missed it doesent kills eth0. This dont happend on other platforms with the
same external USB Hardware.
I have 3 usb devices on PI<4 i would add more but if 3 already instable this makes no sense. And its a 5 Ampere PSU with thick short cable.

Thats i want test but the basics already fail on PI4, even if usb would stable without a working vnc...
thagrol wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:52 pm
Of those two, I suspect google at al could have answered the second one.
Nop, of course i use google first. The result was just a guy that saved a .desktop file as .txt
I doesnt find a answer for correct .desktop files that works fine pre Buster.
thagrol wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:52 pm
So you had to take action yourself to get it working. I'm surprised you didn't moan about this breaking things and making your Pi unfit for purpose.
Its of course annoying if the compatiblity is broken it often cost hours to fix, but this one i found via google. There was no reason for opening
a Topic.

thagrol wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:52 pm
If you tried other OS why aren't you raging at them too?
You are allowed to upgrade from a previous release but it was made quite clear (here: https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/buster ... -raspbian/) that if you do so you're on your own.
Thats just you got me wrong. Thats more like a feature request, a working apt-get upgrade/dist-upgrade.
I know before that this can break the system, the first was Backtrack where im trying this.
So it was no supprise, not much annoying cause it was just on a cloned SD card.
That was the Manual i used for it.
thagrol wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:52 pm
I suspect you're also assuming that all of those things are running on a Pi4 with Buster. Well guess what? They're not.
I dont understand you, i told just im supprised of 2 hdmi ports cause the most use PI´s without monitors.
With a note to x11vnc, that now doesnt work, cause the whole graphic system has changed.
And at least PI3B+ is affected too, cause there is an bug report i found about.
thagrol wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:52 pm
I fail to see how that statement is relevant and how mine confirms your postion. This is also the first time you've mentioned any need for root.
Thats related cause you told "Normal users can't run those commands. Admin (root) users can. ", but for making this PI working for the
usecases in your list you require root. Without root there are only very very few usecases for the PI.
If you cant follow why you discuss endless about nothing? Is it not helpful, its offtopic, in other forums thats forbidden.

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