gkreidl
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:27 am

lb wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:51 am
The Flirc case is not a regular case: it's quite expensive and more like a case-sized passive heatsink than a regular case. It also interferes with WiFi and Bluetooth connectivity and you can't access most of the on-board I/O connectors. We don't need any more marketing for this case: we know it works, but we also know it isn't suitable for most users.
This is nonsense. I'm using it for my RPI 3B+ and also used it when I created a system for a friend with a RPi 3.
Of course it costs more money but it's worth every penny. All those cheap, closed plastic boxes are a pain to use for all RPis starting with the RPi 3. And I really don't want to use a fan.
It may not be the right case for every solution, but this is true for most cases.
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gsgs
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:38 am

seems that I destroyed mt pi 4b by trying to fix the heatsink with arcti silver heat-paste .
I'm not sure if that was the reason, though.
It reported a " 101 error when initializing the SD-card "
I removed the heatsink, carefully wiped the leaked heatpaste , nothing.
Washed it with soap , now it won't boot at all, both LEDs are on permanently.

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Imperf3kt
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:55 am

You "washed it"?

I think I found your problem...
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kennyc
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:11 am

Imperf3kt wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:55 am
You "washed it"?

I think I found your problem...
with soap....
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jamesh
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:19 am

lb wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:51 am
The Flirc case is not a regular case: it's quite expensive and more like a case-sized passive heatsink than a regular case. It also interferes with WiFi and Bluetooth connectivity and you can't access most of the on-board I/O connectors. We don't need any more marketing for this case: we know it works, but we also know it isn't suitable for most users.
I'd say it was a regular case. Just a very well designed one. Looking at the one I have here, the LCD cable and camera cables have exits, and there is an available slot to get a GPIO ribbon cable out should you so wish.

So I would say it is suitable for most users. Also note, most desktops users won't use the GPIO.
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HawaiianPi
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:30 am

lb wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:20 am
Of course you can argue all day that intricate and expensive cooling solutions can solve the thermal issues,
Expensive? I only paid $11 for my Flirc Pi4 case. Not so expensive after all.

but this isn't what the Raspberry Pi was marketed to be used with. It was supposedly designed to be used without a heatsink inside a fully closed case. It would be great if software improvements would actually make that possible, but unfortunately there has been silence on that front for the last couple of weeks.
They really do seem to have dropped the ball on the Pi4 case. No software patches are going to fix that. It needs ventilation holes at the very least (a lot of them), and a fan if you want to push the Pi4 hard without throttling. Sure, the case is cheap, but it's an unworkable solution, and I knew that before I ever had a Pi4 (even a Pi3 would throttle in a case like that).

If you want your Pi4 to work in that case, get out your drill, and maybe get a Fan Shim or mount a fan.
My mind is like a browser. 27 tabs are open, 9 aren't responding,
lots of pop-ups...and where is that annoying music coming from?

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:53 am

lb wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:20 am
Of course you can argue all day that intricate and expensive cooling solutions can solve the thermal issues, but this isn't what the Raspberry Pi was marketed to be used with. It was supposedly designed to be used without a heatsink inside a fully closed case. It would be great if software improvements would actually make that possible, but unfortunately there has been silence on that front for the last couple of weeks.
Certainly early Pi's were designed like that, but the power level required for the performance levels on the Pi4 mean some sort of cooling is more likely. Not essential - I don't have any cooling on mine, but they are in a cases as I need access to JTAG.

As for silence for the last couple of weeks - it's summer, lots of people on holiday, and effort may be targeted elsewhere with bug fixes etc. Note the VLI USB stuff needs to be done by VLI, not us. Of course there are limits to what can be done in software - its all down to clocking. Still some areas for improvements though.
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gsgs
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:02 am

kennyc wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:11 am
Imperf3kt wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:55 am
You "washed it"?

I think I found your problem...
with soap....
to remove possible ramaining cooling paste (which is conductive)

the pi4b was unusable before that because of that 101-error
(which occured on 3 different booting cards)

So this washing was just a last desperate attempt.
The first boot after washing showed lots of errors/
Subsequent boots showed nothing with the 2 LED on permanently

-----------edit--------------------------
well, now I read it's not (electrically) conductive. And that's how I remember it when I buyed it.
But then after the boot-errors I read somewhere it were conductive.
And I had expected that it would dry out at the air, which it did not.

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Imperf3kt
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:03 am

gsgs wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:02 am
kennyc wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:11 am
Imperf3kt wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:55 am
You "washed it"?

I think I found your problem...
with soap....
to remove possible ramaining cooling paste (which is conductive)

the pi4b was unusable before that because of that 101-error
(which occured on 3 different booting cards)

So this washing was just a last desperate attempt.
The first boot after washing showed lots of errors/
Subsequent boots showed nothing with the 2 LED on permanently

-----------edit--------------------------
well, now I read it's not (electrically) conductive. And that's how I remember it when I buyed it.
But then after the boot-errors I read somewhere it were conductive.
And I had expected that it would dry out at the air, which it did not.
I'd never heard of error-101 until you mentioned it, so I typed 'error 101 debian' into a search engine and it returned this result.
https://unix.stackexchange.com/question ... dog-daemon

Seems like it's waiting for network booting?
What made you suspect the addition of a passive heatsink could cause issues with the MicroSD card?
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AndyStubbs
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:36 pm

pfletch101 wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:55 pm
lb wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:20 pm
I remember there were some plans to reduce (idle) power consumption with software changes to the DRAM controller or the graphics driver. Are we going to see anything in this regard any time soon? And what happened to the VLI firmware update, are there any further updates coming out?

If you have any kind of case - even a half-open one - the Raspberry Pi 4 in default configuration throttles really hard and quick after it has warmed up. This isn't really acceptable.
I don't minimize the issue, but 'any kind of case' isn't quite right (even ignoring the possibility of adding a fan). My Pi 4-4 is installed in a Flirc case, and the ambient temperature in my office is currently around 28 C. The Pi's CPU temperature stabilizes at just below 50 C when it is idling, and stays below 55 C doing routine things. Running stress with 16 CPU hogs gets it up to about 70 C, and even running cpuburn-a53 does not get it up to 80 C (after about 30 minutes it was at 76 C, and seemed to have almost levelled out) and/or provoke throttling.
I can verify these temps.
I have the kodi branded flirc case for the pi4 and with ambient temps of 28 degrees in my front bedroom running cpuburn-a53 it hits max of 74-76 degrees (with no throttling)

It's a pretty great case although you wouldn't want to pick it up whilst doing those benchmark runs!

gsgs
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:26 pm

I'm not 100% sure, that it was 101 , maybe 110 or I01.
"error 101 , error when initializing SD-card" (or similar)
It did show the 4 raspberries and the text below them on a black screen AFAIR.
Happened with 3 different cards, that worked fine in another pi4b.
Happened after I had fixed a heatsink with the paste on it, it did work fine
some days before.

I found it , I had written it down :
[0.995936]mmco: error - 110 whilst initialising SD card

the first number changes ... 0.998146 , 1.008072

seems that I had the same error some days before the heatpaste,
but it disappeared (?)

pfletch101
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:32 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:19 am
I'd say it was a regular case. Just a very well designed one. Looking at the one I have here, the LCD cable and camera cables have exits, and there is an available slot to get a GPIO ribbon cable out should you so wish.
Indeed, there is a slot provided for a GPIO ribbon cable, but do you know of a source for a cable/connector combo that fits into the case? The ends of the connectors on the (fairly standard) 40-pin cables I have foul the pillars on the case, so that you can't close it if a cable is attached to the GPIO header.

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Imperf3kt
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:59 pm

pfletch101 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:32 pm
jamesh wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:19 am
I'd say it was a regular case. Just a very well designed one. Looking at the one I have here, the LCD cable and camera cables have exits, and there is an available slot to get a GPIO ribbon cable out should you so wish.
Indeed, there is a slot provided for a GPIO ribbon cable, but do you know of a source for a cable/connector combo that fits into the case? The ends of the connectors on the (fairly standard) 40-pin cables I have foul the pillars on the case, so that you can't close it if a cable is attached to the GPIO header.
Old 40pin IDE cables work great and are shorter than Dupont cables.
Be careful NOT to get the newer 80 wire version - they look extremely similar but are fatal to your Pi.
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pfletch101
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:39 pm

Imperf3kt wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:59 pm
pfletch101 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:32 pm
jamesh wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:19 am
I'd say it was a regular case. Just a very well designed one. Looking at the one I have here, the LCD cable and camera cables have exits, and there is an available slot to get a GPIO ribbon cable out should you so wish.
Indeed, there is a slot provided for a GPIO ribbon cable, but do you know of a source for a cable/connector combo that fits into the case? The ends of the connectors on the (fairly standard) 40-pin cables I have foul the pillars on the case, so that you can't close it if a cable is attached to the GPIO header.
Old 40pin IDE cables work great and are shorter than Dupont cables.
Be careful NOT to get the newer 80 wire version - they look extremely similar but are fatal to your Pi.
Those (40pin IDE cables) are the ones I have - they fit neatly on the GPIO pins, but, as I noted, their sides foul the pillars on the case if you try to close it. I have a couple of them - it's been a long while since I used them for their original purpose - but all the connectors extend beyond the lateral wires by enough to be too much. :) I have also looked on-line. It is difficult to be 100% certain, but all the connectors on sale also seem to be of the same, too big for this purpose, width.

Brad Q
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:41 am

Another Flirc case user here. With Thunderbird and 2-3 Firefox windows(not tabs) open it idles (nothing going on in any of the windows) and holds in the 50-59c range in a 75F room. My particular Pi4-4gb seems to run a little warmer than most. However I can run 4 core sysbench (100% cpu) and never exceed 65C. Now that being said, I do not want to hold onto the case very long after this. Because of this, I have put my keyboard/mouse dongle on an extension as I was afraid it would get fried pretty quickly.

Which brings me to my real questions. How long is the SD card going to survive at a constant 55C(ish) temp? I have noticed that when the cpu temp is much higher than 55C youtube errors out a lot. 55C or lower it seems happier. This seems independent of the cpu load. As I run Ethernet(board plug-in) only (wifi and BT shut off at boot) I am wondering if the case is not acting as an oven for the USB chip (Ethernet runs through the USB chip?). Causing the connection to get "flaky". Other websites get "funny" under these same conditions. Before I ordered the case I had a three piece heat sink installed (cpu, usb, memory), the other two are still on the chips (cpu on the case). They did not appear to do much. I should add I HATE fans.

My intended use for the pi (my first) is as a light duty desktop. Typically Thunderbird, three Firefox windows parked on three specific websites, and then one Firefox window doing general browsing(youtube). The computer will be left on 24/7.

One of the "cures" I thought of to lower the temperature of the case a bit (hopefully 5C) would be to install m2.5 X 6mm stand offs between the motherboard and the plastic bottom of the case(no vents in the version for pi4). The theory being to allow the case to breath a little. I already removed the top plastic which gave me about 1C at idle but maybe 5C off the loaded temperature. Unfortunately no local vendor stocks any m2.5 stuff. As I will spend more on the shipping than I will for the stand offs, opinions on the viability of this suggestion are welcome( or any other hints). If I could find a decent case to go with it, I would switch to an Ice Tower cooler (without fan) pretty quickly.

Thanks

trejan
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:52 am

Brad Q wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:41 am
How long is the SD card going to survive at a constant 55C(ish) temp?
They're rated for operation up to 85C.
Brad Q wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:41 am
As I run Ethernet(board plug-in) only (wifi and BT shut off at boot) I am wondering if the case is not acting as an oven for the USB chip (Ethernet runs through the USB chip?).
Ethernet is separate on a Pi 4. I don't expect the Ethernet PHY or the USB controller to be operating higher than their maximum temperature. The PMIC gets very hot and that is only reading 55C on my Pi 4 inside a Flirc case.

Brad Q
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:20 am

The sad thing is I SHOULD have remember that as shortening the "wiring" was one of the reasons stated for relocating the Ethernet port.

Well it is good to know that I am well below the threshold for the SD card. Thanks for that.

snozzberry
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:47 am

Datapoint:

RPi4b with 4gb ram, Gigabit Ethernet, HDMI out (Full HD) in the Canakit Basic Case (top off) with CPU heatsink:

Idle: 63C
Browsing the web: 65-68C
Youtube: 69-71C

jamesh
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:25 am

We've got some SW changes coming that might help with idle temperatures (won't help with pathological cases like cpuburn, but that not something you encounter in general usage) but for general use will hopefully drop the average temperature. Not sure when they are due though, there will be something in announcements.
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lb
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:29 am

jamesh wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:25 am
We've got some SW changes coming that might help with idle temperatures (won't help with pathological cases like cpuburn, but that not something you encounter in general usage) but for general use will hopefully drop the average temperature. Not sure when they are due though, there will be something in announcements.
Yeah, I don't think anyone expects the Pi 4 w/o additional cooling to run sustained, heavy loads without throttling. But it should be able to endure "sprints", which it currently cannot reliable do as it sometimes already reaches throttle temperatures in idle. Better power management might also reduce peak power consumption for typical sustained CPU loads, which might improve power supply compatibility.

andrum99
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:46 pm

PhilE wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:09 am
By the way, if you run "sudo ./vl805" with no parameters it displays the version of the currently running firmware. Note that this may differ from what's in the EEPROM if you've just reprogrammed it but not rebooted.
Is there a similar tool available to check the version of the bootloader in the Pi 4's main EEPROM?

trejan
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:50 pm

andrum99 wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:46 pm
Is there a similar tool available to check the version of the bootloader in the Pi 4's main EEPROM?
vcgencmd bootloader_version

ProDigit
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:16 am

My Pi 3B with passive sink runs at 58C (63C with only CPU fin).
I've installed 2 additional heat fins, one of them at the bottom of the board, which helped seep 2-3C off of the main CPU while idling!
What helps, is to lower over_voltage_min (to setting -1 or -2), and lower the idle frequency arm_freq_min=500 should work.
It'll keep the Pi running cooler when passive.
You can also experiment with a stable over_voltage,
If your Pi is not overclocked, there's no reason why over_voltage=-1 shouldn't work.
Lower it until you can't boot, or get errors.
Then boot up again, holding the SHIFT button, and set over_voltage to one or two settings higher than what you've set it before.

andrum99
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:55 am

trejan wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:50 pm
andrum99 wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:46 pm
Is there a similar tool available to check the version of the bootloader in the Pi 4's main EEPROM?
vcgencmd bootloader_version
Thanks - I guess that should have been obvious :D

thatchunkylad198966
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Location: UK, Birmingham

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:42 pm

temp=59.0'C
*NO fan/heatsink.
One man's trash is another man's treasure! :) Pi's I have; Pi Zero, Pi Zero W, Pi 2 x2, Pi 3 x2, Pi 4 4GB x2.

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