mothzart
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Problem with "COLD" booting

Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:09 pm

Hi,

I have my RPi for a few weeks now - i fell in love with it :) All good ....but, but, but - one thing worries me.

When I start my RPi (3b+, fresh new SD card 32gb ADATA) for the first time during the day, or when the RPi isn't working for at least 3-4 hours when booting I get all sort of different errors (EXT4 errors ussually, sometimes just before the desktop should appear black screen and nothing for minutes, sometimes different errors, sometimes those errors appear on the second boot also, once i even had some weird noise from speekers [HDMI]).

But... when I reboot for the second or sometimes for the third time everything works like a charm, sometimes even for half a day (making many things), also making reboots when the RPi is "warmed up" never (or at least I don't recall) give me any errors. When Rpi is turned off for 15 min and then i start it up - no problem again.

What is wrong - might this be temperature related (tomorrow I'm going to make a test by warming it A LITTLE BIT with a hair dryer before my first start during the day).

Did someone had the same situation? Is it software or hardware related? (I would bet hardware because those errors are random)

What now? Help... :)

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KLL
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Re: Problem with "COLD" booting

Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:13 am

mothzart wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:28 am
And lastly I have a spare SD card - it's only 8GB and only class 6 - any suggestions?
use that and burn (with etcher ) a RASPBIAN desktop https://downloads.raspberrypi.org/raspbian_latest
/ update it /

this you can use
+ to cross check if you have board OR card problems
+ to new setup in minutes your big SD card by SD card copier tool ( after re update )( so call the 8GB card "MASTER" )
+ repair things on the other card ( what needs to be in the usb card reader) in an emergency

if this card never shows COLD BOOT problems
you know what to do with the 32GB card (windows tool: h2testw)
Last edited by KLL on Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

mothzart
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Re: Problem with "COLD" booting

Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:39 am

Firstly - I would like to confirm my suspicions - today i used the hair dryer (approx. 30 sec - from a distance), and NO ERROR for the first time in days. What I'm going to do next is heat only the SD card after a longer break.

@KLL - I may try your solution although I installed RetroPie and previously OSMC on the 8GB card, but when I run those there were no errors and that OS also boots. So 80-90% it's the card's fault - but now how to fix it without the full format and re-installing my Raspbian or even without (the darkest scenario) changing the card.

About your solution, to be honest I don't quite understand parts of it.
+ to new setup in minutes your big SD card by SD card copier tool ( after re update )( so call the 8GB card "MASTER" )
+ repair things on the other card ( what needs to be in the usb card reader) in an emergency
Are you suggesting that it is possible to repair the system I'm now running by using my 8GB card and somehow "transfer" what might be broken?

and also
you know what to do with the 32GB card (h2testw)
Now before anything else I'm going to try this (but i don't have a USB card reader - gotta buy it - i know it costs cents...) but I gotta run it under windows on a laptop with a card reader built-in - I don't know if that solution will work.

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KLL
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Re: Problem with "COLD" booting

Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:53 am

mothzart wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:39 am
Are you suggesting that it is possible to repair the system I'm now running by using my 8GB card and somehow "transfer" what might be broken?
you know what to do with the 32GB card (h2testw)
Now before anything else I'm going to try this (but i don't have a USB card reader - gotta buy it - i know it costs cents...) but I gotta run it under windows on a laptop with a card reader built-in - I don't know if that solution will work.
-a- a master is a installed system updated and customized
what can copy itself by piclone (desktop SD card copier ) / rpi-clone (CLI )
to a other (smaller) or bigger card while it is running

it would not repair your "target" card, it would overwrite it!

-b- yes h2testw is a windows utility

it would overwrite the card too. ( one step short of trashing it )

mothzart
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Re: Problem with "COLD" booting

Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:07 pm

Ok, so two things:

1. To put all of that plain and simple about what i should do:
a) copy via RPi card copier (BTW: i also have a 16gb card class10 for my sport camera [let's call it SPORT16] which should be better, as i don't want to "waste" all the configs on my 8GB RETROPIE)
b) that copied system on the SPORT16 card should run just like the one on RASPBERRY32 card (am i right?)
c) then i run all programs that can format/overwrite etc the RASPBERRY(32gb) card (see. point 2 - will it help??? ...simply - what program (even at the cost of formatting the card will check if all the clusters are OK?)
d) i copy the system back from my SPORT16 to RASPBERRY32
e) i check if that system that runs now back on RASPBERRY32 has the same issues?

The only thing i don't know is how to make a file system check - because all of those checks (fsck commands etc.) before gave no result :( Besides those error's are not always EXT4 errors.

2) I found something called GParted - might this help when I will be between steps B) and C)? Because it doesn't help when the card is mounted it cannot make a check (and there is that option embedded but it's inactive for the main (/root) partition and the key symbol appears.

P.S. What do you mean by "one step short of trashing it"?
P.S.2. Explain as simple as possible as i am still a beginner (maybe now a I promoted to "Novice" ;) )

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KLL
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Re: Problem with "COLD" booting

Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:59 am

no, what i think is, that the card is bad:
+ throw it away (as a new SanDisk Ultra Plus A1 microSDHC UHS-1 Card 32GB is about 13$ )
+ + run from windows PC a h2testw over it
+ + + from PC format it or burn new with etcher
- - - do not copy from it to a good card ( as a attempt to rescue your setup ) by sd card copier tool ( as you might copy damaged files )
+ + + + but try to save private files and settings first ( like with tar / xz from /home/pi/... to a usb stick )

yes, for file system check the card better is not running system
( so must be in a card reader on RPI while other SD card is system )
that is why you need to have that master SD card with a raspbian desktop on a 8GB SD card
( yes, updated and add installed gparted .. good )
and in furture use that (updated master) also to create new systems cards ( by sd card copier tool )
or to do repair work.

mothzart
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Re: Problem with "COLD" booting

Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:47 am

Ok, if that card is bad then i'm going to use the guarantee(throwing it away just like that is going overboard a little), because it's a fresh new bought card... and also, before I do that i would like to have some proof that there are really some bad sectors or something, because otherwise the seller won't approve my guarantee.

For HDD there's a great tool HDTune Pro, but I don't know any equivalent for SD cards - how to check it for bad sectors etc, to have some kind of proof?

And also I'm going to USE SPORT16 (card) to run the system as it is (copied from RASPBERRY32 when the card is warmed) to check if it really is damaged, because if it shows the same problems on SPORT16 then it is not the card's fault and it still might be fixable.

Hopefully today I'm going to do a little "fighting" with it if I find the time so I will come back with some more info soon...

And as for now - all I gotta do is use the hair drier for like 15sec before my first start during the day so it's not much of a problem ...for now (until it might evolve) ;P

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B.Goode
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Re: Problem with "COLD" booting

Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:54 am

For HDD there's a great tool HDTune Pro, but I don't know any equivalent for SD cards - how to check it for bad sectors etc, to have some kind of proof?


@kll has mentioned the h2testw utility three times...

mothzart
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Re: Problem with "COLD" booting

Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:24 pm

Yeah, I know but h2testw didn't detect all the partitions when I plugged my RASPBERRY32 into win7 laptop - it only scanned "recovery" sector or something like that. I tried other software that theoretically should make ext4 visible for win7 but it was only visible in those programs which gave me nothing. So as far as my problem goes h2testw would test the card but only if i formatted it and that's what i want to avoid.

I compared it with HD Tune Pro because that program shows everything possible regarding HDD health - and you really know what-is-what when using it.

Now... today I tried rpiclone and it stopped at copying (3rd partition, no led flashes, no CPU usage etc.) from RASPBERRY32 to SPORT16 for around an hour, and even if it copied everything i still wouldn't have the certainty that i didn't not copy any corrupted files which might put me in the start point.

For now:
1)i got the card reader and i run GParted on my SPORT16 (all good),
2) now i'm going to try installing a fresh version of Raspbian on SPORT16,
3) then install NTFS support (for HDD support),
4) then backup (manually) all my most important files (it should be easy as the WHOLE Raspbian is around 11GB) from RASPBERRY32 to a HDD (just the /home/pi i guess as the rest might be corrupted) and then
5) running on fresh raspbian on SPORT16 check with GParted my RASPBIAN32 (as far as I see it's the only tool that REALLY tested the card on RPi)

...it might seem like quite a hassle from your side but i just REALLY want to avoid installing all that stuff on RPi from the very beginning and if there is still a chance it might be file system related (I never really broke any microsd card in my life), so i have a little negative attitude towards the theory that it's a hardware problem (although every factor indicates so... :/)

Also one question - if I would want to return the card to the seller via guarantee option how would h2testw somehow prove her malfunctions? How to do that properly?

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KLL
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Re: Problem with "COLD" booting

Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:27 am

mothzart wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:24 pm
Yeah, I know but h2testw didn't detect all the partitions when I plugged my RASPBERRY32 into win7 laptop - it only scanned "recovery" sector or something like that. I tried other software that theoretically should make ext4 visible for win7 but it was only visible in those programs which gave me nothing. So as far as my problem goes h2testw would test the card but only if i formatted it and that's what i want to avoid.

...
...it might seem like quite a hassle from your side but i just REALLY want to avoid installing all that stuff on RPi from the very beginning and if there is still a chance it might be file system related (I never really broke any microsd card in my life), so i have a little negative attitude towards the theory that it's a hardware problem (although every factor indicates so... :/)

Also one question - if I would want to return the card to the seller via guarantee option how would h2testw somehow prove her malfunctions? How to do that properly?
extra for you i write today a little something

yes, there have to be considered also other hardware problems:
how to clean the contacts on the SD card? alcohol?
can the contacts in the card holder be damaged?
the temperature thing could implicate a bad card holder soldering to board

well, if it is the card holder... and not the SD card:
-a- you should have the same problems with other cards
-b- you could use USB boot ( on RPI3B+ anyway enabled )
*** a good test is to put the card in the card reader, the card reader usb in the RPI, ( NO SD card in internal card holder! ) powerup
as with all USB devices boot there is a 50% chance that the card reader is bootable ( with a bootable card )
like ANITECH RA410 boots, STRONTIUM mini card reader NOT.

mothzart
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Re: Problem with "COLD" booting

Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:09 pm

Wow, great thanks for the whole walk-trough - i will try it tomorrow :)

Before that I will also clean the card's connectors with some IPA. And i will make some more tests to exclude the card reader's fault.

I also think that i will just record a one-take video for the seller as proof to get my money back and buy a faster card (I was thinking about Samsung Evo+ 32GB ( http://allegro.pl/karta-pamieci-samsung ... 26442.html - "Polish Ebay", 54PLN = 26$, and that minus previous 15$ it's only 9 bucks more, and i think that the system would run a lot smoother on that card - it showed on top in many tests.

The SPORT16 will go back to the camera and the RETROPIE8 will be named OSMC8 (worked fine on class 6) :)

And when i will have some more money to invest i will buy another 32 Samsung Evo+ for building Retropie (as on class 6 card everything worked really slow :( )

I will post my progress. Once again thanks :)

P.S. If you would like some advice/help etc. regarding Fl Studio, Airsoft Gear (...real short = paintball w/o paint) or Graphic design (AI, PS) - i can help in exchange ;)

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KLL
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Re: Problem with "COLD" booting

Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:29 am

mothzart wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:09 pm
Samsung Evo+ 32GB ( http://allegro.pl/karta-pamieci-samsung ... 26442.html
good card, i have one too,

other option:
http://allegro.pl/pendrive-sandisk-32gb ... ml#thumb/4 see also en
  • is fast on any USB3 PC
  • can be also plug in a mobile phone for filetransfer
  • on RPI
    • can work as storage drive
    • can work as partial system drive using the PINN ( not NOOBS) install to USB drive option
      why is this a special case? well for this you can use USBstick types what refuse to boot
    • can be a bootable system drive ( i run it on RPI3B OTP USB boot enable )
      • created by Raspbian Desktop [Menu][Accessories][SD card copier] tool from a MASTER SD in card-holder
        ( and just shutdown, remove SD card, power up )
      • or PC: etcher burned RASPBIAN image
      • or PC: formated and unzip copy PINN or NOOBS
      • if you put in a SD card again, but not remove USB stick, it will boot from SD card
        • - by shutdown, power off, insert SD card, power on
        • - by hotplug SD card, reboot
        and you can copy/backup between the 2 drives (+1+)
      • to support this even better you can "gparted" reduce RASPBIAN partition, make a ext4 DATA partition
        ( will not be accessable by win PC / unless network SAMBA shared or SFTP )
        and mount that from the RASPBIANs ( setup as mount in USB stick AND SD card system )
      • if you boot from USB the SD card holder can be used as a card reader by hot plug a SD card after boot, like for systems check without ext card reader
      so the USB stick is always in ( and boot if no SD card),
      and you run any other system by use other SD card at boot

      but if get into conflict with having other USB drives connected see here

mothzart
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Re: Problem with "COLD" booting

Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:49 pm

Ok, things got worse and no matter cold or hot the system booted after about 4-6 attempts. Then it run ok... but occasionally it froze even w/o any special CPU usage.

Sooo... I had to do something and as KLL wrote in his great walk-trough i followed it. I did everything except testing for bad sectors etc. (POINT -e-)

BTW1: is using Gparted an option for not using all those CLI commands at the end of that article or is it another point? ...and also, for future use, how to scan with Gparted when a certain partition is mounted - is unmounting it gonna do any harm, OFC when i'm not running on that system and the card is in a card reader, and also how to mount it again?

...but for now everything went back to normal - no errors when booting (don't want to jinx it - as it's running for around 1h by now so I'm not 100% sure (made many boots, and breaks in usage between them - not a single error I HOPE IT WILL STAY THAT WAY :) ).

It looks like making an image, then formatting, [email protected] and reinstalling that image worked for me. Also h2testw showed NO ERRORS,

BTW2: is writing 17,7 MByte/s and reading 62,5 a good outcome? - that's my ADATA 32gb outcome on h2testw.

Everything went smooth, but don't close the topic just yet, we'll see in a day or two if everything is really ok, i will let you know and then it can be marked as SOLVED.

And once again many thanks for all the RPi community especially KLL :)

We'll be in touch, cya for now :)

mothzart
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Re: Problem with "COLD" booting

Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:04 am

Ok, RPi works like a charm :D ...not a single error, whole day many activities etc.

...but now what I want to do is to connect it to my home network, but not to make a mess I will ask that question in a different topic:

viewtopic.php?f=91&t=207945&hilit=simpl ... p&start=25

This topic CAN BE MARKED AS [SOLVED]

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davidcoton
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Re: Problem with "COLD" booting

Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:12 pm

mothzart wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:04 am
This topic CAN BE MARKED AS [SOLVED]
You can do that yourself. Edit your OP and add [SOLVED] to the title.
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