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chrisoh
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Pi 3 in shutdown state draws 220mA

Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:48 pm

This was brought to my attention by the Pi 3 status LEDs thread, that after performing a shutdown by GUI or sudo halt/sudo shutdown -h now, the Pi 3 continues to draw ~220mA whilst in it's 'power-off' state.

Some context of previous Pi current draws are:
All of these are bare-bone (does not have any peripherals/accessories attached)

*** Fun Fact ***
Any turned-off Raspberry Pi that's still plugged in: 15mA to 30mA

*** Idle ***
Raspberry Pi 2 B: 420mA
Raspberry Pi B+: 200-230mA
Raspberry Pi B: 320-330mA
Raspberry Pi A+: 100-110mA
Raspberry Pi A: 120-140mA
Raspberry Pi Zero: 60-70mA
Raspberry Pi 3 B: 280-320mA

*** Under Load/Max ***
Raspberry Pi 2 B: 450-650mA
Rasbperry Pi B+: 300-600mA
Raspberry Pi B: 380-450mA
Raspberry Pi A+: 200-300mA
Raspberry Pi A: 170-300mA
Raspberry Pi Zero: 140-150mA
Raspberry Pi 3 B: 800-1400mA
Quoted from PandaLion98 in this stackoverflow post.

This will scupper many a battery powered project I'm sure... can the devs shed some light on the matter?
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Re: Pi 3 in shutdown state draws 220mA

Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:50 pm

make a circuit that removes the power to the board after a shutdown
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chrisoh
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Re: Pi 3 in shutdown state draws 220mA

Mon Mar 14, 2016 2:09 pm

RaTTuS wrote:make a circuit that removes the power to the board after a shutdown
You're not wrong, that is a work-around. I'll add it the the other Pi 3 work-arounds shall I... SSH/ARP, WiFi power saving, SoC temperature... continual power draw

I'm more interested in why the Pi 3 has diverged from the norm. When you shutdown a device, you expect it to draw the minimum possible, basically enough to be ready to startup again, as previous Pi's have done (15-30mA for PWR LED or what-have-you). This is common sense for other devices too: turn off your TV and it draws minimum etc. But the Pi 3 is drawing almost the same as when it is powered on and in an idle state without any peripherals (~250mA).

It'd be nice to hear from the RPF. I've invested a lot in the RPF ecosystem over the years but the Pi 3 is beginning to tire me. :cry:
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Re: Pi 3 in shutdown state draws 220mA

Mon Mar 14, 2016 2:53 pm

chrisoh wrote:
RaTTuS wrote:make a circuit that removes the power to the board after a shutdown
You're not wrong, that is a work-around. I'll add it the the other Pi 3 work-arounds shall I... SSH/ARP, WiFi power saving, SoC temperature... continual power draw

I'm more interested in why the Pi 3 has diverged from the norm. When you shutdown a device, you expect it to draw the minimum possible, basically enough to be ready to startup again, as previous Pi's have done (15-30mA for PWR LED or what-have-you). This is common sense for other devices too: turn off your TV and it draws minimum etc. But the Pi 3 is drawing almost the same as when it is powered on and in an idle state without any peripherals (~250mA).

It'd be nice to hear from the RPF. I've invested a lot in the RPF ecosystem over the years but the Pi 3 is beginning to tire me. :cry:
The RaspberryPi has never had a powermanagement circuit taht allows it to power off. What you call power off is actually HALT.
Comparable to pre ATX PCs, which you had to manually switch off at the mains switch after "sutdown".
Only very few SBCs have something like this, and there is no norm for this either. Comparing it to a PC is just wrong.

Regards
Aydan

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chrisoh
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Re: Pi 3 in shutdown state draws 220mA

Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:05 pm

Aydan wrote:The RaspberryPi has never had a powermanagement circuit taht allows it to power off. What you call power off is actually HALT.
Comparable to pre ATX PCs, which you had to manually switch off at the mains switch after "sutdown".
Only very few SBCs have something like this, and there is no norm for this either. Comparing it to a PC is just wrong.

Regards
Aydan
I think you've got the wrong thread. No one is comparing the Pi to a PC :?:
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Re: Pi 3 in shutdown state draws 220mA

Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:27 pm

chrisoh wrote:
RaTTuS wrote:make a circuit that removes the power to the board after a shutdown
You're not wrong, that is a work-around. I'll add it the the other Pi 3 work-arounds shall I... SSH/ARP, WiFi power saving, SoC temperature... continual power draw

I'm more interested in why the Pi 3 has diverged from the norm. When you shutdown a device, you expect it to draw the minimum possible, basically enough to be ready to startup again, as previous Pi's have done (15-30mA for PWR LED or what-have-you). This is common sense for other devices too: turn off your TV and it draws minimum etc. But the Pi 3 is drawing almost the same as when it is powered on and in an idle state without any peripherals (~250mA).

It'd be nice to hear from the RPF. I've invested a lot in the RPF ecosystem over the years but the Pi 3 is beginning to tire me. :cry:
Can I advise not buying one then? The Pi2 might be more your cup of tea. Or the Zero, much lower power consumption.
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chrisoh
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Re: Pi 3 in shutdown state draws 220mA

Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:56 pm

jamesh wrote:Can I advise not buying one then? The Pi2 might be more your cup of tea. Or the Zero, much lower power consumption.
I already have one, hence the post ;) If that's aimed at potential Pi customers, then eek!

I'm not questioning the general power consumption, it's the shutdown state consumption I'm highlighting. On all previous models it drops to a bare minimal, but with the Pi 3 it remains almost the same as when it is up and running. I'm wondering why this is? a design choice? a deisgn compromise? a design flaw?

Is this a permanent characteristic of the Pi going forward? If it is, I can forsee it being an issue in the maker community atleast, as power consumption will have to be externally controlled for mobile applications if you want to implement the latest Pi release, adding complexity and cost and possibly rendering some projects unrealistic.

Maybe no one else cares, but one of the main pet-loves of the Pi for me is the low power consumption which I captilise on in projects, and the only two solutions provided to what I see as a fundamental underlying change are 'add extra hardware' and 'don't buy it'. Which doesn't fill me with hope for the Pi in the future :?

Mods:
I'll hazard a guess that it's a deisgn choice so maybe this is better suited to General Discussion rather than Troubleshooting forum, feel free to move it over :lol:
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Re: Pi 3 in shutdown state draws 220mA

Mon Mar 14, 2016 4:05 pm

chrisoh wrote:I'm not questioning the general power consumption, it's the shutdown state consumption I'm highlighting. On all previous models it drops to a bare minimal, but with the Pi 3 it remains almost the same as when it is up and running. I'm wondering why this is? a design choice? a deisgn compromise? a design flaw?
Probably a firmware bug. It's not high on the list of things to look at right now, but since there's a commonality in power domains between 2835/6/7 I find it hard to believe that the SoC itself can't be put into a lower-power state.
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Re: Pi 3 in shutdown state draws 220mA

Mon Mar 14, 2016 4:11 pm

this is not the first time i see a idle power consumption lower on pi3 than on pi2
is this true?

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chrisoh
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Re: Pi 3 in shutdown state draws 220mA

Mon Mar 14, 2016 4:13 pm

jdb wrote:
chrisoh wrote:I'm not questioning the general power consumption, it's the shutdown state consumption I'm highlighting. On all previous models it drops to a bare minimal, but with the Pi 3 it remains almost the same as when it is up and running. I'm wondering why this is? a design choice? a deisgn compromise? a design flaw?
Probably a firmware bug.
Great, thanks for the message! It's nice to get a qualified response and to know that it's 'on the radar' now atleast. I'll know who to prod in the future :mrgreen:
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Re: Pi 3 in shutdown state draws 220mA

Mon Mar 14, 2016 8:14 pm

I would be curious if there is a difference in the power consumption of a Pi3 that has never booted (plugged in without an SD card) and one that has had the OS halted. Make sure there are no peripherals (USB, etc..) drawing power when you do this test. I don't have a Pi 3 yet.

For comparison I just ran a test on a Pi 2, either never booted or halted from the OS uses the same power, approx 65ma @ 5v. All the Pis draw a bit of current in this state, this is normal. What is not, is the Pi3 drawing almost the same as when running. Has anyone else confirmed this?

Regards,
-Moses
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Re: Pi 3 in shutdown state draws 220mA

Mon Mar 14, 2016 9:04 pm

RPi3 @ ~52mA, & barely noticable increase with the VC4 blinking the dimmest of LEDs too.

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Re: Pi 3 in shutdown state draws 220mA

Mon Mar 14, 2016 9:09 pm

gregeric wrote:RPi3 @ ~52mA, & barely noticable increase with the VC4 blinking the dimmest of LEDs too.
Very interesting to hear. I've never noticed a dimming of the LEDs, thought they were on or off jobbies. Can you elaborate on your setup?
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Re: Pi 3 in shutdown state draws 220mA

Mon Mar 14, 2016 9:13 pm

LED + 6k8 resistor on GPIO16, Herman Hermitage's blinker01 loaded as bootcode.bin from uSD.

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Re: Pi 3 in shutdown state draws 220mA

Mon Mar 14, 2016 9:16 pm

gregeric wrote:LED + 6k8 resistor on GPIO16, Herman Hermitage's blinker01 loaded as bootcode.bin from uSD.
So not a standard setup ;)
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Re: Pi 3 in shutdown state draws 220mA

Mon Mar 14, 2016 9:24 pm

Just interesting to see how power-efficient the VC4 is. With no SD card inserted, it's still running bootrom & looking in turn for one of the other vectors to load bootcode from.

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Re: Pi 3 in shutdown state draws 220mA

Tue Mar 15, 2016 2:54 am

jdb wrote:
chrisoh wrote:I'm not questioning the general power consumption, it's the shutdown state consumption I'm highlighting. On all previous models it drops to a bare minimal, but with the Pi 3 it remains almost the same as when it is up and running. I'm wondering why this is? a design choice? a deisgn compromise? a design flaw?
Probably a firmware bug. It's not high on the list of things to look at right now, but since there's a commonality in power domains between 2835/6/7 I find it hard to believe that the SoC itself can't be put into a lower-power state.
i can confirm this is a firmware bug: i flashed the latest raspbian image to a fresh sd card and rpi2 has the same high power draw after shutdown. so although very annoying this is not a rpi 3 issue

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Re: Pi 3 in shutdown state draws 220mA

Tue Mar 15, 2016 3:03 am

mcduman wrote:
jdb wrote:
chrisoh wrote:I'm not questioning the general power consumption, it's the shutdown state consumption I'm highlighting. On all previous models it drops to a bare minimal, but with the Pi 3 it remains almost the same as when it is up and running. I'm wondering why this is? a design choice? a deisgn compromise? a design flaw?
Probably a firmware bug. It's not high on the list of things to look at right now, but since there's a commonality in power domains between 2835/6/7 I find it hard to believe that the SoC itself can't be put into a lower-power state.
i can confirm this is a firmware bug: i flashed the latest raspbian image to a fresh sd card and rpi2 has the same high power draw after shutdown. so although very annoying this is not a rpi 3 issue
What is your current draw on the Pi 2 when shutdown? Mine is about 65ma and it has been that way since the release.
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Re: Pi 3 in shutdown state draws 220mA

Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:47 am

mosespi do you use the 2016-02-26 image released for the pi 3?

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Re: Pi 3 in shutdown state draws 220mA

Tue Mar 15, 2016 5:09 am

I don't have a Pi 3 unfortunately. My results were for a Pi 2, no OS, no sdcard power consumption approx 65ma, which I consider normal since it has been this way since the beginning. I'll try the newer version of Raspbian and see if it makes a difference, although I'm not sure if any part of the firmware persists on the broadcom chip if you remove the sd card and power cycle.

Do we have a confirmed 220ma+ shutdown power usage on another Pi 3 (other then the initial report?), or greater then 65ma power usage on a Pi 2?

Regards,
-Moses
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Re: Pi 3 in shutdown state draws 220mA

Tue Mar 15, 2016 5:38 am

mosespi wrote:. I'll try the newer version of Raspbian and see if it makes a difference, although I'm not sure if any part of the firmware persists on the broadcom chip if you remove the sd card and power cycle.



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Re: Pi 3 in shutdown state draws 220mA

Tue Mar 15, 2016 6:28 am

Clean install of 2016-02-26-raspbian-jessie.img on a Pi 2, same result, still 65ma shutdown idle power.

I updated it as well.. raspberrypi-bootloader upgraded to 1.20160309-1 from 1.20160225-1, if it matters, again no difference.

Rebooted, shutdown, powered off a few times to be sure, no change, its still doing what it has always done, 65ma shutdown current.

If you are indeed seeing higher usage, then there must be a difference somewhere between my setup and yours, as I don't see this issue on the Pi 2 at least. Note mine is as basic a setup as can be, the only things plugged in are power, SD card and network.

You sure you guys don't have some USB device or something taking up all that additional power you are seeing?

Regards,
-Moses
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Re: Pi 3 in shutdown state draws 220mA

Tue Mar 15, 2016 6:56 am

thanks for taking all the trouble. i only have a hifiberry digi+ s/pdif interface connected. nothing else. and neither the rpi2 nor the 3 shut down as rpi2 did prior to the latest image.

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Re: Pi 3 in shutdown state draws 220mA

Tue Mar 15, 2016 7:00 am

my Pi3 draws ~100mA after shutdown.,140mA with hdmi2vga converter attached and it was always like that. Did apt-get update/upgrade yesterday.
chrisoh wrote:On all previous models it drops to a bare minimal, but with the Pi 3 it remains almost the same as when it is up and running.
In fact all models are like that more or less, the
*** Fun Fact ***
Any turned-off Raspberry Pi that's still plugged in: 15mA to 30mA
is not true (at least at 5V). My model B draws 110mA after sudo poweroff with nothing attached except power (i.e. more than pi3).
Actually the model B can idle at 100mA with HDMI off and usb disabled and after sudo poweroff the power draw goes up :-)

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Re: Pi 3 in shutdown state draws 220mA

Tue Mar 15, 2016 10:53 pm

So looks like a non issue, the Pi has acted this way since first release years ago (some power usage when in HALT / non OS mode). The way the LED acts might have changed in recent firmware.. and this resulted in someone investigating.

To chrisoh: forum user fanoush reported a HALTED PI3 draws ~100mA after shutdown, so I am guessing your 220mA number has something to do with additional components (USB peripherals or HATS or ?) drawing power.

All Pis that I have used have always drawn some power when the OS is stopped/shutdown/halted/not loaded. I know because I spent hours staring at lab power supplies while developing a UPS for the Pi. You were never able to get the consumption to *BATTERY* level low unless you threw some more hardware at the Pi, even just a simple switch.

Maybe the foundation can decrease this power usage with a firmware/software update.. I don't know enough about the broadcom chip to tell you, but if it was easily possible with software I'm sure they would have already done it during the last few years.

Regards,
-Moses
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