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ds18s20
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Having a USB hub challenge with Pi Zero

Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:18 pm

Hello everyone,

I am having a USB hub challenge with Pi Zero. Any device (such as mouse/keyboard) works fine when connected directly to the micro USB port of the Zero via an OTG adapter but when I connect a powered USB hub using the same adapter nothing works.

Same exact hub with the same peripherals (keyboard/mouse) works fine when connected to a Windows laptop. Ok forget the Windows example although imho it is equally credible test. The hub works fine as-is with all of its peripherals when connected to a Pi 2...

This is NOT a USB 3.0 hub, it is an older Belkin F5U027 7-port powered hub.

Any ideas?
Thank you

Image

Image
Last edited by ds18s20 on Wed Dec 09, 2015 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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mikronauts
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Re: Having a USB hub challenge with Pi Zero

Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:39 pm

Let the hub back power the Pi 0 ... that worked for me with an Orico 9 port hub.

Alternately, disconnect the +5V on the USB cable connecting the hub to the Pi 0 (if you are powering the 0 with another power source, even if it is from the same hub)

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ds18s20
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Re: Having a USB hub challenge with Pi Zero

Wed Dec 09, 2015 9:17 pm

Thanks mikronauts, however I am confused now.

The root port of the USB hub can never power the Pi Zero (that's where the host would normally connect ergo a PC), how can I power the Pi from the HUB then? And yes I did try and the Pi Zero gets no power when I disconnect the other micro USB cable which powers the Pi from a dedicated 5v adapter.

Image

drgeoff
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Re: Having a USB hub challenge with Pi Zero

Wed Dec 09, 2015 11:47 pm

1. Is that Belkin Hub a USB1 hub? I have not had success with the only 4 port USB1 hub I have tried with a Zero and the latest Raspbian Jessie. A 2 port USB2 hub is working fine.

2. Although it is against the USB spec, many hubs - especially the ones which can be operated with or without their own power supply - do (when powered from their own supply) feed power out of that socket which connects to the host device.

3. There is nothing to stop you powering the Zero by connecting a standard USB to micro-USB between one of the Belkin's 7 sockets and the Zero's power input micro-USB.

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Re: Having a USB hub challenge with Pi Zero

Thu Dec 10, 2015 12:55 am

I know what you mean, and normally I'd agree with you 100%...

BUT

Image

The USB Eth adapter is plugged into the hub, as is the KVM's keyboard cable, and I checked, the Pi is NOT being powered from the HDMI connection, but from the connection to the root port on the hub!

(from page 5 of my Pi Zero review at http://www.mikronauts.com/raspberry-pi/ ... ro-review/ )

I plan on performing surgery on a USB A - USB B cable to cut the power so I can power the Pi 0 from the 1A or 2A charger port on the hub, but for now... it is working fine being powered by the root hub port :)
ds18s20 wrote:Thanks mikronauts, however I am confused now.

The root port of the USB hub can never power the Pi Zero (that's where the host would normally connect ergo a PC), how can I power the Pi from the HUB then? And yes I did try and the Pi Zero gets no power when I disconnect the other micro USB cable which powers the Pi from a dedicated 5v adapter.

Image
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Re: Having a USB hub challenge with Pi Zero

Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:49 am

ds18s20 wrote: ...
The root port of the USB hub can never power the Pi Zero (that's where the host would normally connect ergo a PC), how can I power the Pi from the HUB then? And yes I did try and the Pi Zero gets no power when I disconnect the other micro USB cable which powers the Pi from a dedicated 5v adapter.
...
Image
Given that's an "old?" 7-port hub you may be seeing the "known cascaded USB1.1 hubs issue"** with the OTG USB of the P0 (IIRC as seen with early B & A Pi's). What does lsusb -t report with the hub connected?
Trev.
** viewtopic.php?f=28&t=53832
Still running Raspbian Jessie or Stretch on some older Pi's (an A, B1, B2, B+, P2B, 3xP0, P0W, 2xP3A+, P3B+, P3B, B+, A+ and a B2) but Buster on the P4B's. See: https://www.cpmspectrepi.uk/raspberry_pi/raspiidx.htm

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Re: Having a USB hub challenge with Pi Zero

Thu Dec 10, 2015 12:50 pm

FTrevorGowen wrote: What does lsusb -t report with the hub connected?
That is a Catch-22. :(

The Zero has only one USB port so when you plug in a non-working hub you cannot have a working keyboard. :(

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Re: Having a USB hub challenge with Pi Zero

Thu Dec 10, 2015 12:54 pm

drgeoff wrote:
FTrevorGowen wrote: What does lsusb -t report with the hub connected?
That is a Catch-22. :(

The Zero has only one USB port so when you plug in a non-working hub you cannot have a working keyboard. :(
you can
sleep 60 ; lsusb -t
then swap the keyboard for the hub
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Re: Having a USB hub challenge with Pi Zero

Thu Dec 10, 2015 1:40 pm

RaTTuS wrote:
drgeoff wrote:
FTrevorGowen wrote: What does lsusb -t report with the hub connected?
That is a Catch-22. :(
The Zero has only one USB port so when you plug in a non-working hub you cannot have a working keyboard. :(
you can
sleep 60 ; lsusb -t
then swap the keyboard for the hub
Or run the command with it plugged into your Pi2 (that should still tell us whether the hub is a USB 1.1 device).
Trev.
Still running Raspbian Jessie or Stretch on some older Pi's (an A, B1, B2, B+, P2B, 3xP0, P0W, 2xP3A+, P3B+, P3B, B+, A+ and a B2) but Buster on the P4B's. See: https://www.cpmspectrepi.uk/raspberry_pi/raspiidx.htm

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ds18s20
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Re: Having a USB hub challenge with Pi Zero

Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:45 pm

Well I'm sad to share my experience that a usb hub working with Model B or Model 2 isn't indicative that it will work with Pi Zero. I have faced exactly the same situation with this Belkin 7 port hub. I'm trying to get a credible explanation as to why that might be by reading the forums but judging by how evasive everyone has been so far I would say there's some kind of incompatibility which the community isn't willing to acknowledge.. I've tried several "real" USB 1 powered hubs that I have working with other devices and none have worked.

Long story short; I had something laying around which kind of resembles a powered USB hub (Unitek SATA station) and that worked just fine with my Pi Zero. So the Belkin was good with Model 2 but no go with Zero while the Unitek SATA brick works fine with both models.

Image

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Re: Having a USB hub challenge with Pi Zero

Thu Dec 10, 2015 6:16 pm

ds18s20 wrote:Well I'm sad to share my experience that a usb hub working with Model B or Model 2 isn't indicative that it will work with Pi Zero.
...
That should not have been a "surprise" - only the A or A+ is directly comparable with the Zero since all three do not have the extra components that provide the additional USB ports and LAN on the B, B+ and P2B. Also many (low-to-medium cost?) USB hubs do not fully comply with the USB "specs." (eg. may "back-power").
Trev.
Still running Raspbian Jessie or Stretch on some older Pi's (an A, B1, B2, B+, P2B, 3xP0, P0W, 2xP3A+, P3B+, P3B, B+, A+ and a B2) but Buster on the P4B's. See: https://www.cpmspectrepi.uk/raspberry_pi/raspiidx.htm

java
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Re: Having a USB hub challenge with Pi Zero

Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:46 pm

ds18s20 wrote:Well I'm sad to share my experience that a usb hub working with Model B or Model 2 isn't indicative that it will work with Pi Zero. I have faced exactly the same situation with this Belkin 7 port hub. I'm trying to get a credible explanation as to why that might be by reading the forums but judging by how evasive everyone has been so far I would say there's some kind of incompatibility which the community isn't willing to acknowledge.. I've tried several "real" USB 1 powered hubs that I have working with other devices and none have worked.

Long story short; I had something laying around which kind of resembles a powered USB hub (Unitek SATA station) and that worked just fine with my Pi Zero. So the Belkin was good with Model 2 but no go with Zero while the Unitek SATA brick works fine with both models.

Image
Okay, I have a USB 3 powered Hub, which works perfectly with my RPi B, and RPi 2 B, my ATOM Intel box and my WIN7 64 box, it is a j5create.

Plug it into my RPi Zero, and mouse and keyboard, are not detected, but the DWA 125 ( Firmware from SYSLOG rt2870 ) flashes and goes mad, while plugged into the hub, with, keyboard, and mouse, which also work well, with my other RPi's

Now just a bit more than 5 hours trying to get this to work ...

HDMI to VGA, connector works well, Raspbian boots to desktop, just no keyboard or mouse - need both to get Wi-Fi networking up and running, then it can run headless.

Methinks Raspbian Jessie is borked somewhere ... - and Wheezy will not run on RPi Zero, at least, not that I am aware of ...

Makes no difference, if the RPi Zero, is powered, from the USB Hub, or a 2 Amp, Element 14 power supply, new, or any of the 2 other identical power supplies, I have for my other RPi's

So, if I put the RPi Zero, SD card, in my RPi B, will it boot, and allow me to setup Wi-Fi, so I can then put it back in the RPi Zero, and have a headless box I can at least SSH into.

Edit:

This Hub does not back power, my other RPi's

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Re: Having a USB hub challenge with Pi Zero

Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:52 am

ds18s20 wrote:... by reading the forums but judging by how evasive everyone has been so far I would say there's some kind of incompatibility which the community isn't willing to acknowledge..
I don't think people here are being "evasive" - more likely you're the first person to travel this particular road, and we're watching you with bated breath!

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Re: Having a USB hub challenge with Pi Zero

Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:02 am

is it detected OK ?

try the
sleep 60 ; lsusb -t
and swap from keybaord to hub
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Re: Having a USB hub challenge with Pi Zero

Sat Jan 09, 2016 2:45 am

OK, I'm having the same problem with usb hubs not working. Here's the result of lsusb:

/: Bus 01.Port 1: Dev 1, Class=root_hub, Driver=dwc_otg/1p, 480M
|__ Port 1: Dev 13, If 0,Class=Hub, Driver=hub/4p, 480M

The hub is an Inland USB 3.0 powered hub. I also have a funky unpowered hub that returns:

/: Bus 01.Port 1: Dev 1, Class=root_hub, Driver=dwc_otg/1p, 480M

Hope this helps!

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Re: Having a USB hub challenge with Pi Zero

Sat Jan 09, 2016 5:24 pm

johnzbesko wrote:OK, I'm having the same problem with usb hubs not working. Here's the result of lsusb:

/: Bus 01.Port 1: Dev 1, Class=root_hub, Driver=dwc_otg/1p, 480M
|__ Port 1: Dev 13, If 0,Class=Hub, Driver=hub/4p, 480M

The hub is an Inland USB 3.0 powered hub. I also have a funky unpowered hub that returns:

/: Bus 01.Port 1: Dev 1, Class=root_hub, Driver=dwc_otg/1p, 480M

Hope this helps!
W.r.t. to the USB 3.0 hub - what does lsusb (as opposed to lsusb -t) report?
W.r.t. to the "funky unpowered hub" - that appears to be "undetectable" (or broken/dead) ie. it has no lsusb entry**.
Trev.
** the first "Bus 01.Port 1: Dev 1, Class=root_hub, Driver=dwc_otg/1p, 480M" entry is the Pi Zero's "hub".
Still running Raspbian Jessie or Stretch on some older Pi's (an A, B1, B2, B+, P2B, 3xP0, P0W, 2xP3A+, P3B+, P3B, B+, A+ and a B2) but Buster on the P4B's. See: https://www.cpmspectrepi.uk/raspberry_pi/raspiidx.htm

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Re: Having a USB hub challenge with Pi Zero

Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:47 pm

More information. I have an old Raspberry Pi (2011.12?) that has been updated in the last year. It also does not detect either hub. The devices work perfectly fine on my recent Ultrabook running Windows.

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Re: Having a USB hub challenge with Pi Zero

Sun Jan 10, 2016 4:12 am

Yet more info:
My kubuntu desktop reports for the powered hub:

$ sudo lsusb
Bus 004 Device 005: ID 2109:2812 VIA Labs, Inc. VL812 Hub
$ sudo lsusb -t
/: Bus 10.Port 1: Dev 1, Class=root_hub, Driver=uhci_hcd/2p, 12M
|__ Port 1: Dev 2, If 0, Class=Human Interface Device, Driver=usbhid, 1.5M
/: Bus 09.Port 1: Dev 1, Class=root_hub, Driver=uhci_hcd/2p, 12M
/: Bus 08.Port 1: Dev 1, Class=root_hub, Driver=uhci_hcd/2p, 12M
/: Bus 07.Port 1: Dev 1, Class=root_hub, Driver=uhci_hcd/2p, 12M
/: Bus 06.Port 1: Dev 1, Class=root_hub, Driver=uhci_hcd/2p, 12M
/: Bus 05.Port 1: Dev 1, Class=root_hub, Driver=uhci_hcd/2p, 12M
/: Bus 04.Port 1: Dev 1, Class=root_hub, Driver=ehci-pci/6p, 480M
|__ Port 1: Dev 7, If 0, Class=Hub, Driver=hub/4p, 480M
|__ Port 4: Dev 2, If 0, Class=Mass Storage, Driver=usb-storage, 480M
|__ Port 6: Dev 4, If 0, Class=Audio, Driver=snd-usb-audio, 480M
|__ Port 6: Dev 4, If 1, Class=Audio, Driver=snd-usb-audio, 480M
|__ Port 6: Dev 4, If 2, Class=Video, Driver=uvcvideo, 480M
|__ Port 6: Dev 4, If 3, Class=Video, Driver=uvcvideo, 480M
/: Bus 03.Port 1: Dev 1, Class=root_hub, Driver=ehci-pci/6p, 480M
/: Bus 02.Port 1: Dev 1, Class=root_hub, Driver=xhci_hcd/2p, 5000M
/: Bus 01.Port 1: Dev 1, Class=root_hub, Driver=xhci_hcd/2p, 480M

The pi zero simply reports the device ID without the description.
For the funky hub:

$ sudo lsusb
Bus 008 Device 002: ID 03eb:0902 Atmel Corp. 4-Port Hub
$ sudo lsusb -t
/: Bus 10.Port 1: Dev 1, Class=root_hub, Driver=uhci_hcd/2p, 12M
|__ Port 1: Dev 2, If 0, Class=Human Interface Device, Driver=usbhid, 1.5M
/: Bus 09.Port 1: Dev 1, Class=root_hub, Driver=uhci_hcd/2p, 12M
/: Bus 08.Port 1: Dev 1, Class=root_hub, Driver=uhci_hcd/2p, 12M
|__ Port 1: Dev 2, If 0, Class=Hub, Driver=hub/4p, 12M
/: Bus 07.Port 1: Dev 1, Class=root_hub, Driver=uhci_hcd/2p, 12M
/: Bus 06.Port 1: Dev 1, Class=root_hub, Driver=uhci_hcd/2p, 12M
/: Bus 05.Port 1: Dev 1, Class=root_hub, Driver=uhci_hcd/2p, 12M
/: Bus 04.Port 1: Dev 1, Class=root_hub, Driver=ehci-pci/6p, 480M
|__ Port 4: Dev 2, If 0, Class=Mass Storage, Driver=usb-storage, 480M
|__ Port 6: Dev 4, If 0, Class=Audio, Driver=snd-usb-audio, 480M
|__ Port 6: Dev 4, If 1, Class=Audio, Driver=snd-usb-audio, 480M
|__ Port 6: Dev 4, If 2, Class=Video, Driver=uvcvideo, 480M
|__ Port 6: Dev 4, If 3, Class=Video, Driver=uvcvideo, 480M
/: Bus 03.Port 1: Dev 1, Class=root_hub, Driver=ehci-pci/6p, 480M
/: Bus 02.Port 1: Dev 1, Class=root_hub, Driver=xhci_hcd/2p, 5000M
/: Bus 01.Port 1: Dev 1, Class=root_hub, Driver=xhci_hcd/2p, 480M

And the pi zero doesn't report anything back at all.

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Re: Having a USB hub challenge with Pi Zero

Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:03 am

In the early days of the the original RPi's issues were flagged up about some USB3 Devices causing issues.

With the upgrading of hardware and software this generally on the RPi1 B+ / RPi 2B is now a non-issue, as the USB BUS goes via a LAN9514 Chipset to the Ethernet/USB..

Unfortunately until the RPi ZERO only the A / A+ had a single USB BUS brought out and therefore unlikely much testing of various USB3 Devices have taken place......

It would seem sticking to USB2 devices which are actually USB2 is the answer :(
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Re: Having a USB hub challenge with Pi Zero

Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:30 am

java wrote: Methinks Raspbian Jessie is borked somewhere ... - and Wheezy will not run on RPi Zero, at least, not that I am aware of ...
Wheezy will run on zero if fully updated first (in another pi)
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Re: Having a USB hub challenge with Pi Zero

Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:37 am

mikerr wrote:
java wrote: Methinks Raspbian Jessie is borked somewhere ... - and Wheezy will not run on RPi Zero, at least, not that I am aware of ...
Wheezy will run on zero if fully updated first (in another pi)
It was recommended to me that starting with the Wheezy May 2015 Release running on another RPi:

Code: Select all

sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get dist-upgrade
sudo reboot
..then

Code: Select all

sudo rpi-update
sudo reboot
This does actually work :D
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Re: Having a USB hub challenge with Pi Zero

Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:55 am

Yes, the above sequence enabled my old raspberry pi (2011.12) to recognize the Atmel hub but not the Via 3.0 hub. I tried to perform the same sequence on the micro sd card I have for the pi zero (using the old pi), but I got an "out of space" error on the 8GB micro (the old pi has a 16GB sd card.) The old pi still recognizes the Atmel hub (I assume because the firmware had already been updated) but the zero, booted with this micro sd does not recognize the hub.

How do I update the firmware on the zero?

BTW, the original sd card for the old pi had Wheezy, and the zero pi had NOOB, i.e. Jessie.

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Re: Having a USB hub challenge with Pi Zero

Mon Jan 11, 2016 6:25 am

johnzbesko wrote:Yes, the above sequence enabled my old raspberry pi (2011.12) to recognize the Atmel hub but not the Via 3.0 hub. I tried to perform the same sequence on the micro sd card I have for the pi zero (using the old pi), but I got an "out of space" error on the 8GB micro (the old pi has a 16GB sd card.) The old pi still recognizes the Atmel hub (I assume because the firmware had already been updated) but the zero, booted with this micro sd does not recognize the hub.

How do I update the firmware on the zero?

BTW, the original sd card for the old pi had Wheezy, and the zero pi had NOOB, i.e. Jessie.
rpi-update is both Firmware and Kernel, but is only needed in Wheezy (Kernel 4.1.15) with regards the ZERO


As stated earlier you can not compare USB compatibility between the models with a LAN9512/4 and the ones without, though my Belkin Hub has no issues with the ZERO.


Regards NOOBS installer / chooser you need version 1.5 or later for the ZERO, but the latest will always be backward compatible.:

http://thepihut.com/blogs/raspberry-pi- ... berry-pi-2


Wheezy and Jessie are also backward compatible if installed standalone and fully updated, but would not recommend Wheezy any more, Jessie is aok...
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Re: Having a USB hub challenge with Pi Zero

Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:56 am

johnzbesko wrote:The old pi still recognizes the Atmel hub (I assume because the firmware had already been updated) but the zero, booted with this micro sd does not recognize the hub.

How do I update the firmware on the zero?
All RPis have no updateable onboard "firmware". It is loaded from the card every time the RPi boots. So you don't "update the firmware on the Zero". If the card is updated in any one RPi, it is up to date for all RPis.

johnzbesko
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Re: Having a USB hub challenge with Pi Zero

Tue Jan 12, 2016 3:52 am

As stated earlier you can not compare USB compatibility between the models with a LAN9512/4 and the ones without, though my Belkin Hub has no issues with the ZERO.
So, my old raspberry (2011.12), after the update procedure, now recognizes the Atmel hub, but when I boot this micro sd in the zero, it doesn't work. After getting the zero for free, I've purchased a mini-hdmi to hdmi cable, a 3,0 powered usb hub and a female to female hdmi adaptor (so I can use an old monitor), and I still can't do anything useful with the zero. Reminds me of trying to print from Red Hat Linux in 1999.

Short of throwing more money at it, what should I do?

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