juggle
Posts: 9
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Re: USB - the Elephant in our Room

Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:10 pm

ledow wrote: Because, for some things, the USB DOES NOT WORK. Simple as that. No matter how much power you throw it at, what firmware you use, what distro you run, how short your cables are, or any other factor whatsoever. I can provide examples of both keyboards and 3G modems that do not work. Ever. At all. Others have found the same with wireless sticks, webcam and custom devices that are FULLY USB COMPLIANT. They just don't work.

The USB might work for you, if you're lucky and using it only on certain devices. But it doesn't "just work".
*snip*
I agree. I am a hobbyist on a limited budget and I bought a USB-to-dual-PS/2 adapter cable so I can use my existing keyboard and mouse.

The adapter works fine when I plug it in to my desktop PC or my notebook.
It doesn't work with the Pi.

I don't care whether the problem is current limiting on the USB or interrupt latency - to me this means I have wasted money on a piece of junk that doesn't work.
Last edited by juggle on Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jamesh
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Re: USB - the Elephant in our Room

Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:30 pm

ledow wrote:
pygmy_giant wrote:I don't understand the grumblers.
Because, for some things, the USB DOES NOT WORK. Simple as that. No matter how much power you throw it at, what firmware you use, what distro you run, how short your cables are, or any other factor whatsoever. I can provide examples of both keyboards and 3G modems that do not work. Ever. At all. Others have found the same with wireless sticks, webcam and custom devices that are FULLY USB COMPLIANT. They just don't work.

The USB might work for you, if you're lucky and using it only on certain devices. But it doesn't "just work". It's not a question of working better, but at all on those devices (which have no compatibility issues with Linux or anything else).
This does appear to be the case, but I see no problems on my system, so for me it does 'just work'
ledow wrote: It was not acknowledged for months after reporting (check my thread history if you like). It isn't being rectified. There's one guy looking at it in his spare time and even the people who designed and built their own custom USB devices and who spotted the problem first can't help that much (they have provided full USB logs using expensive USB analyzers, that PROVE that USB packets sometimes just drop out of existence after being acknowledged by the RPi and still nothing close to a fix has surfaced because the "community" contains the same number of kernel hackers as any other project - i.e. very, very, very, very few, and even fewer with in-depth knowledge of the RPi and/or USB).
The problem appears to be with the Synopsis driver and additionally high interrupt latency on Linux, not anything provided by the Foundation or indeed the SoC supplier.
ledow wrote:
This non-acknowledgement of the problem and not having enough people "in the know" able to fix these things is the source of the complaints. Hell, I still haven't heard back if the perfectly-working 2Gb SD card that *I* had to send to the guy at Broadcom who sent it onto their driver-writer in Taiwan ever had any success in getting it to work on the RPi. It worked on DOZENS of other devices and has for years, but the RPi didn't even recognise it one time in 20 of trying. Without that card, I can't say that the problem it experienced was "fixed", because the other cards I have always worked.
The problem, as shown by the thread above and others, is acknowledged. Who did you send the card to at Brcm? There has been an SD card patch I believe. Whether it fixed that card I do no know.
ledow wrote:
It's certainly a big deal when you plan projects around having a USB-compatible device that actually isn't. When you set up whole electronics projects of your own that just need the RPi to sit into the middle and it doesn't recognise the hardware you're using (despite EVERYTHING else doing so). It's also a problem if, say, you're a school and randomly 10% of the things you try (or buy) to use with the RPi just don't work at all.
You planned (important?) projects around a new bleeding edge product released in order to find out bugs exactly like the ones being seen here prior to the full educational release?
ledow wrote:
This is a problem, that's been present on the forums and the kernel bug-tracker for months, and we're no closer to a fix *today* than we were when they were first reported. My RPi is in a box until there's a firmware update which states that this problem may be improved / fixed. It has been for weeks now. Without USB it's a bit useless for my projects. Hell, last week I put it into the attic because I can't do anything with it yet and all the associated hardware was in my way.
We are considerably closer to a solution than before. Not there yet though.
ledow wrote:
This is a problem. It's now been admitted. One person "on the team" has now said unofficially what they think the cause is. There's still no sign of a fix or even a suggestion as to what form the fix could take (reducing interrupt latency is a bit of a dark-art, especially in custom systems). In the meantime, people like me have been asking for months for someone to look into it and had non-working hardware in that time. Sure, if you want a device that views SD card contents on a HDMI TV, you could knock one up with a RPi. I have, after various faffing about with reporting SD card compatibility problems, done just that - including using a USB mouse and keyboard (of a particular model that *did* work). But USB is present on both models and still does not work for everyone, or for all the devices it should. As far as my project and some of the hardware I need to use are concerned, the USB port on the RPi doesn't exist, which brings everything to a grinding halt. And if the RPi had been sold without a USB port, I wouldn't have touched it for my project because of that.
How many months have you had you device? Two? Saying 'asking for months' seems an exaggeration given how long the devices have actually been available.

This device is not for you. Sell it. We are sorry its not for you, and the best people to fix the problem are working on it, and hopefully things will improve for the minority who are seeing problems. I'm finding it quite difficult to see what else can be done.
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jamesh
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Re: USB - the Elephant in our Room

Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:34 pm

juggle wrote:
ledow wrote: Because, for some things, the USB DOES NOT WORK. Simple as that. No matter how much power you throw it at, what firmware you use, what distro you run, how short your cables are, or any other factor whatsoever. I can provide examples of both keyboards and 3G modems that do not work. Ever. At all. Others have found the same with wireless sticks, webcam and custom devices that are FULLY USB COMPLIANT. They just don't work.

The USB might work for you, if you're lucky and using it only on certain devices. But it doesn't "just work".
*snip*
I agree. I am a hobbyist on a limited budget and I bought a USB-to-dual-PS/2 adaptor cable so I can use my existing keyboard and mouse.

The adapter works fine when I plug it in to my desktop PC or my notebook.
It doesn't work with the Pi.

I don't care whether the problem is current limiting on the USB or interrupt latency - to me this means I have wasted money on a piece of junk that doesn't work.
It's not a piece of junk. You are exaggerating. It most certainly does work in many/most circumstances as shown by the many thousands of people who are more than happy with them.

Many USB keyboards and mice work. I suggest scrounging some, perhaps your desktop PC uses a USB mouse and keyboard you can try?
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Joe Schmoe
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Re: USB - the Elephant in our Room

Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:34 pm

juggle wrote: I don't care whether the problem is current limiting on the USB or interrupt latency - to me this means I have wasted money on a piece of junk that doesn't work.
Note that the typical snotty forum answer is "Well, you'll have no problem selling it on eBay".

Which is true, of course, but totally misses the point.

As I like to say about these sorts of snotty answers: I'll take "Totally missing the point" for $600, Alex. (*)

(*) Game show historians will note that the original quote referred to "Jack", not "Alex", but most people here are too young to have ever heard of "The Joker's Wild", so we've updated the quote to refer to the only game show most people have ever heard of.
And some folks need to stop being fanboys and see the forest behind the trees.

(One of the best lines I've seen on this board lately)

jamesh
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Re: USB - the Elephant in our Room

Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:38 pm

Joe Schmoe wrote:
juggle wrote: I don't care whether the problem is current limiting on the USB or interrupt latency - to me this means I have wasted money on a piece of junk that doesn't work.
Note that the typical snotty forum answer is "Well, you'll have no problem selling it on eBay".

Which is true, of course, but totally misses the point.

As I like to say about these sorts of snotty answers: I'll take "Totally missing the point" for $600, Alex. (*)

(*) Game show historians will note that the original quote referred to "Jack", not "Alex", but most people here are too young to have ever heard of "The Joker's Wild", so we've updated the quote to refer to the only game show most people have ever heard of.
Well, he can always sell it on Ebay..

And what is the point? That there is a USB problem, which was only noticed once many boards hit the field. Which has been acknowledged and is being worked on. It's a difficult problem to fix which is why it's taking time. Is that the point you are getting at? Or something else.
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juggle
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Re: USB - the Elephant in our Room

Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:48 pm

jamesh wrote:...
You planned (important?) projects around a new bleeding edge product released in order to find out bugs exactly like the ones being seen here prior to the full educational release?
If it was clearly stated that the Pi was being sold for people to debug, I would have saved my money.
:(

sulge
Posts: 21
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Re: USB - the Elephant in our Room

Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:51 pm

jamesh wrote: Well, he can always sell it on Ebay..

And what is the point? That there is a USB problem, which was only noticed once many boards hit the field. Which has been acknowledged and is being worked on. It's a difficult problem to fix which is why it's taking time. Is that the point you are getting at? Or something else.
Even if the keyboard and mouse work for you, it does not mean that the USB packets are not lost. Do you understand this? And what happens when packets are lost during recording to disk, can you imagine? Do you will pay for loss of data?

PaulCheffus
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Re: USB - the Elephant in our Room

Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:54 pm

sulge wrote:Even if the keyboard and mouse work for you, it does not mean that the USB packets are not lost. Do you understand this? And what happens when packets are lost during recording to disk, can you imagine? Do you will pay for loss of data?
Hi

You've made it quite obvious you arn't happy with the product so sell it and quit moaning. :roll:

One person is working on the problem in his spare time.

Cheers

Paul
Procrastination - The Thief of Time.

Joe Schmoe
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Re: USB - the Elephant in our Room

Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:56 pm

PaulCheffus wrote:You've made it quite obvious you arn't happy with the product so sell it and quit moaning. :roll:

One person is working on the problem in his spare time.

Cheers

Paul
Alex? $600?
And some folks need to stop being fanboys and see the forest behind the trees.

(One of the best lines I've seen on this board lately)

jamesh
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Re: USB - the Elephant in our Room

Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:59 pm

sulge wrote:
jamesh wrote: Well, he can always sell it on Ebay..

And what is the point? That there is a USB problem, which was only noticed once many boards hit the field. Which has been acknowledged and is being worked on. It's a difficult problem to fix which is why it's taking time. Is that the point you are getting at? Or something else.
Even if the keyboard and mouse work for you, it does not mean that the USB packets are not lost. Do you understand this? And what happens when packets are lost during recording to disk, can you imagine? Do you will pay for loss of data?
FFS. I've said, MULTIPLE TIMES that there is a problem and it's acknowledged, and someone is working on it. What more do you want me to say? Or are you just trying to wind me up - because it working (although that might the the trouble I'm having with multiple git repositories and android porting).

And as a slight aside - if you are using a $35 device for critical data storage you need your head examined.
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jamesh
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Re: USB - the Elephant in our Room

Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:00 pm

Joe Schmoe wrote:
PaulCheffus wrote:You've made it quite obvious you arn't happy with the product so sell it and quit moaning. :roll:

One person is working on the problem in his spare time.

Cheers

Paul
Alex? $600?
Give it a rest.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Please direct all questions to the forum, I do not do support via PM.

sulge
Posts: 21
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Re: USB - the Elephant in our Room

Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:01 pm

PaulCheffus wrote:
sulge wrote:Even if the keyboard and mouse work for you, it does not mean that the USB packets are not lost. Do you understand this? And what happens when packets are lost during recording to disk, can you imagine? Do you will pay for loss of data?
Hi

You've made it quite obvious you arn't happy with the product so sell it and quit moaning. :roll:

One person is working on the problem in his spare time.

Cheers

Paul

If anything, the RPi should return the money!

I complain because they did not inform about this problem on http://www.raspberrypi.org/.
They fear a drop in sales! This is unfair!

sulge
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:08 pm

Re: USB - the Elephant in our Room

Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:04 pm

jamesh wrote:
sulge wrote:
jamesh wrote: Well, he can always sell it on Ebay..

And what is the point? That there is a USB problem, which was only noticed once many boards hit the field. Which has been acknowledged and is being worked on. It's a difficult problem to fix which is why it's taking time. Is that the point you are getting at? Or something else.
Even if the keyboard and mouse work for you, it does not mean that the USB packets are not lost. Do you understand this? And what happens when packets are lost during recording to disk, can you imagine? Do you will pay for loss of data?
FFS. I've said, MULTIPLE TIMES that there is a problem and it's acknowledged, and someone is working on it. What more do you want me to say? Or are you just trying to wind me up - because it working (although that might the the trouble I'm having with multiple git repositories and android porting).

And as a slight aside - if you are using a $35 device for critical data storage you need your head examined.
Maybe not critical but the family movies, etc. What if someone loses this data watching them on TV using RPI?

jamesh
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Re: USB - the Elephant in our Room

Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:04 pm

sulge wrote:
PaulCheffus wrote:
sulge wrote:Even if the keyboard and mouse work for you, it does not mean that the USB packets are not lost. Do you understand this? And what happens when packets are lost during recording to disk, can you imagine? Do you will pay for loss of data?
Hi

You've made it quite obvious you arn't happy with the product so sell it and quit moaning. :roll:

One person is working on the problem in his spare time.

Cheers

Paul

If anything, the RPi should return the money!

I complain because they did not inform about this problem on http://www.raspberrypi.org/.
They fear a drop in sales! This is unfair!
You didn't buy the device from the Foundation, so they don't owe you any money. Ask for a refund from RS or Farnell.

Please desist from any more unsubstantiated comments like that. You have made your point, it's been noted.
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pygmy_giant
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Re: USB - the Elephant in our Room

Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:09 pm

“Propose to an Englishman any principle, or any instrument, however admirable, and you will observe that the whole effort of the English mind is directed to find a difficulty, a defect, or an impossibility in it. If you speak to him of a machine for peeling a potato, he will pronounce it impossible: if you peel a potato with it before his eyes, he will declare it useless, because it will not slice a pineapple. “. ~ Charles Babbage quoted in Richard H. Babbage (1948) “The Work of Charles Babbage“, Annals of the Computation Laboratory of Harvard University, vol. 16.
Last edited by pygmy_giant on Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jamesh
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Re: USB - the Elephant in our Room

Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:12 pm

sulge wrote:
Maybe not critical but the family movies, etc. What if someone loses this data watching them on TV using RPI?
Watching a movie is a read only task - you shouldn't get corruption. On the other hand, are you really watching the *only* copy of a family movie on a HD/SD card attached to a Raspi? You should ALWAYS have multiple copies of critical data. My backups of family pictures etc are triple redundant with offsite storage. USB HDs are cheap enough.
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jamesh
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Re: USB - the Elephant in our Room

Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:12 pm

pygmy_giant wrote:“Propose to an Englishman any principle, or any instrument, however admirable, and you will observe that the whole effort of the English mind is directed to find a difficulty, a defect, or an impossibility in it. If you speak to him of a machine for peeling a potato, he will pronounce it impossible: if you peel a potato with it before his eyes, he will declare it useless, because it will not slice a pineapple. “. ~ Charles Babbage quoted in Richard H. Babbage (1948)
:-)
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pygmy_giant
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Re: USB - the Elephant in our Room

Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:15 pm

The rest of the quote is:

"... Impart the same principle or show the same machine to an American or to one of our Colonists, and you will observe that the whole effort of his mind is to find some new application of the principle, some new use for the instrument“

I'm not racist but ... it reminds me of the joke about the Englishman with an inferiority complax - he thought he was the same as everybody else!

(I'm English so enjoy self-depricating)
Last edited by pygmy_giant on Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

sulge
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Re: USB - the Elephant in our Room

Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:17 pm

pygmy_giant wrote:“Propose to an Englishman any principle, or any instrument, however admirable, and you will observe that the whole effort of the English mind is directed to find a difficulty, a defect, or an impossibility in it. If you speak to him of a machine for peeling a potato, he will pronounce it impossible: if you peel a potato with it before his eyes, he will declare it useless, because it will not slice a pineapple. “. ~ Charles Babbage quoted in Richard H. Babbage (1948) “The Work of Charles Babbage“, Annals of the Computation Laboratory of Harvard University, vol. 16.
First of all
I am not an Englishman.

Reliability of USB communication is a basic functionality of each device with an USB. So I can see you have problems with thinking.
Last edited by sulge on Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Joe Schmoe
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Re: USB - the Elephant in our Room

Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:19 pm

That is a great quote - and so dead-on-the-money.
And some folks need to stop being fanboys and see the forest behind the trees.

(One of the best lines I've seen on this board lately)

jamesh
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Re: USB - the Elephant in our Room

Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:23 pm

sulge wrote:
pygmy_giant wrote:“Propose to an Englishman any principle, or any instrument, however admirable, and you will observe that the whole effort of the English mind is directed to find a difficulty, a defect, or an impossibility in it. If you speak to him of a machine for peeling a potato, he will pronounce it impossible: if you peel a potato with it before his eyes, he will declare it useless, because it will not slice a pineapple. “. ~ Charles Babbage quoted in Richard H. Babbage (1948) “The Work of Charles Babbage“, Annals of the Computation Laboratory of Harvard University, vol. 16.
First of all
I am not an Englishman.

Reliability of USB communication is a basic functionality of each device with an USB. So I can see you have problems with thinking.
One more insult and you are banned. Whilst I accept argument for and against (hence this continuing thread), I do not accept insults of any form. English or not.
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p4trykx
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Re: USB - the Elephant in our Room

Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:24 pm

I have tried the posted kernel but no improvement ;-(
I'm using latest Raspbian with the supplied kernel. I followed other instructions too.
uname -a

Code: Select all

Linux raspberrypi 3.1.9-cutdown+ #4 PREEMPT Tue Aug 7 21:20:50 CEST 2012 armv6l GNU/Linux
I occasionally get those errors and mouse and keyboard frezes. It occurs under load for instance when starting Chrome or Midori. I make circles with mouse and when I see it stops responding this shows on the dmesg

Code: Select all

Aug  9 15:53:20 raspberrypi kernel: usb 1-1.2: reset low speed USB device number 4 using dwc_otg
Aug  9 15:55:37 raspberrypi kernel: usb 1-1.2: reset low speed USB device number 4 using dwc_otg
Aug  9 15:56:02 raspberrypi kernel: usb 1-1.2: reset low speed USB device number 4 using dwc_otg
Aug  9 15:57:40 raspberrypi kernel: usb 1-1.2: reset low speed USB device number 4 using dwc_otg
Aug  9 15:57:55 raspberrypi kernel: usb 1-1.2: reset low speed USB device number 4 using dwc_otg
I use Logitech, Inc. LX710 Cordless Desktop Laser it's a cordless keyboard and mouse. It rated 55mA so the voltage drop on polyfuse shouldn't be an issue. To rule that out I even shorted the plyfuse. I'm using Farnell power adapter that I ordered with Raspi I also tried one more powerful 2A from Kindle Fire.

I hope the model A would be free from those bugs at the price of Ethernet.
I wonder if there is a way to disconnect the eth/hub chip and just use the one USB output directly with a HUB.
Last edited by p4trykx on Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

sulge
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Re: USB - the Elephant in our Room

Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:27 pm

jamesh wrote: One more insult and you are banned. Whilst I accept argument for and against (hence this continuing thread), I do not accept insults of any form. English or not.
So, why you smile responding to this quote?
pygmy_giant wrote:“Propose to an Englishman any principle, or any instrument, however admirable, and you will observe that the whole effort of the English mind is directed to find a difficulty, a defect, or an impossibility in it. If you speak to him of a machine for peeling a potato, he will pronounce it impossible: if you peel a potato with it before his eyes, he will declare it useless, because it will not slice a pineapple. “. ~ Charles Babbage quoted in Richard H. Babbage (1948) “The Work of Charles Babbage“, Annals of the Computation Laboratory of Harvard University, vol. 16.

jamesh
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Re: USB - the Elephant in our Room

Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:30 pm

sulge wrote:
pygmy_giant wrote:“Propose to an Englishman any principle, or any instrument, however admirable, and you will observe that the whole effort of the English mind is directed to find a difficulty, a defect, or an impossibility in it. If you speak to him of a machine for peeling a potato, he will pronounce it impossible: if you peel a potato with it before his eyes, he will declare it useless, because it will not slice a pineapple. “. ~ Charles Babbage quoted in Richard H. Babbage (1948) “The Work of Charles Babbage“, Annals of the Computation Laboratory of Harvard University, vol. 16.

So, why you smile responded to this quote?
Because I'm English, and see the funny/truthful side of the quote?
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
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sulge
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Re: USB - the Elephant in our Room

Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:36 pm

jamesh wrote:
sulge wrote: Because I'm English, and see the funny/truthful side of the quote?
In my opinion, in my answer you also can see the funny/truthful side. So? But it does not matter.
USB communication should be reliable and it is not so at present RPI should goes to trash and not for sale. For this reason, I can not sell it, and expose a buyer for trouble.

It would be unfair.

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