karadev
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is the arduino support for RPI2040 better then CMAKE ????

Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:36 pm

hello mates, i found a video in tube that tells that arduino make a support for RPI PICO 2040. link is here >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YOEauk9bLo
video says that the support is oficial and can be used for all apps with RPI PICO original board. my question is this one =

1. IF use a arduino ide with them driver and lib support for my RPI PICO BOARD, have i risk to make software worst then CMAKE and NOTEPAD++ way like all normal programmers. video is from april this year and this mate that make this video is good programmer, but not say which way is better. and i want to understand which way to programm is better and what is differences between them if any.

2. have here a anyone to tell me or someone who is try it already this arduino libs suport in arduino ide for RPI PICO better or worst from standart C++ CMAKE way to program RPI PICO ????

3. when RASPBERRY COMPANY WILL MAKE A FULL INSTALL IDE with all CMAKE setings, global paths to be a SIMPLE download and install for all users of RPI PICO 2040 for dummyes like me ??? and are they planning to do this in general ???

thanks for all you who answer to my questions :) best regards in front of all of you
http://www.karadev.net - electronic systems hardware, software, programming, LINUX, PICO and more :)

jamesh
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Re: is the arduino support for RPI2040 better then CMAKE ????

Sun Jul 25, 2021 3:44 pm

In answer to your subject title, no, we don't think so.

As for installation, we have very comprehensive instructions for the three major platforms (Linux, Mac and Windows). Are you having problems with one of them?
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karadev
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Re: is the arduino support for RPI2040 better then CMAKE ????

Sun Jul 25, 2021 3:54 pm

jamesh wrote: In answer to your subject title, no, we don't think so
so you know that the Cmake programig is better way to program pico and have better performance ???
jamesh wrote: As for installation, we have very comprehensive instructions for the three major platforms (Linux, Mac and Windows). Are you having problems with one of them?
i use windows mostly, but have and raspberry 3b+ for ftp ssh server for local storage. i have not problems with install, seting or using cmake , but want to use a simple ide development like arduino ide for some students that talk to me for help making software and hardware with pico. need a easy way to explane to them how to install or setup seting for cmake envirment. ardu ide is simplem that i want to use directly from you :) own ide with raspberry pico icon on top left corner ;)
http://www.karadev.net - electronic systems hardware, software, programming, LINUX, PICO and more :)

drgeoff
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Re: is the arduino support for RPI2040 better then CMAKE ????

Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:55 pm

Which one is better depends on the criteria used to assess them. Those criteria will not be constant, but depend on the relative importance of the various factors to whoever is choosing.

The Arduino method may be "Arduino official" but it is certainly not "RaspberryPi official".
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

jamesh
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Re: is the arduino support for RPI2040 better then CMAKE ????

Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:31 pm

CMake is just a build system, nothing to do with the programming side really. As long as you write decent code, the build system is(mostly) irrelevant.

We recommend using VSCode as the IDE, that's what I use. Sometimes on a Pi itself, usually on a Linux box. I tend to run builds from the command line (make), usually in the terminal window in VSCode. Drag and drop the results on to the Pico if in storage boot mode, but often I just run code via the SWD debug from a Pi. Pretty quick and easy.

All our examples and documentation is based around the CMake build system.
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hippy
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Re: is the arduino support for RPI2040 better then CMAKE ????

Sun Jul 25, 2021 6:36 pm

karadev wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 3:54 pm
i have not problems with install, seting or using cmake , but want to use a simple ide development like arduino ide for some students that talk to me for help making software and hardware with pico. need a easy way to explane to them how to install or setup seting for cmake envirment. ardu ide is simplem that i want to use directly from you :) own ide with raspberry pico icon on top left corner ;)
There isn't an official Raspberry Pi IDE as simple as the classic Arduino IDE, Mu or Thonny, but it would be simple enough to create such an IDE.

Python-based was my route for Proof of Concept because it's cross-platform and includes TkInter pre-installed. Python is available on a Pi and Linux, and is a prerequisite for installing the Pico development environment on Windows.

It wasn't so much an IDE as a text editor with a click to "save and launch cmake / make" option. In fact there are existing text editor apps which can do exactly that.

What I created worked well enough except on Windows where I ran into problems because the recommended build tools need to be run within the Developer Command Prompt. Replacing the recommended build tools with MingW overcame that. I am sure someone willing to invest time and effort could make it work with the recommended build tools.

I never pursued creating a simple IDE for Pico SDK further but someone easily could.

I am a little surprised no one has done it. I guess those who want it don't know how to while those who easily could haven't because they aren't interested in doing that or have other priorities.

jamesh
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Re: is the arduino support for RPI2040 better then CMAKE ????

Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:05 pm

hippy wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 6:36 pm
karadev wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 3:54 pm
i have not problems with install, seting or using cmake , but want to use a simple ide development like arduino ide for some students that talk to me for help making software and hardware with pico. need a easy way to explane to them how to install or setup seting for cmake envirment. ardu ide is simplem that i want to use directly from you :) own ide with raspberry pico icon on top left corner ;)
There isn't an official Raspberry Pi IDE as simple as the classic Arduino IDE, Mu or Thonny, but it would be simple enough to create such an IDE.

Python-based was my route for Proof of Concept because it's cross-platform and includes TkInter pre-installed. Python is available on a Pi and Linux, and is a prerequisite for installing the Pico development environment on Windows.

It wasn't so much an IDE as a text editor with a click to "save and launch cmake / make" option. In fact there are existing text editor apps which can do exactly that.

What I created worked well enough except on Windows where I ran into problems because the recommended build tools need to be run within the Developer Command Prompt. Replacing the recommended build tools with MingW overcame that. I am sure someone willing to invest time and effort could make it work with the recommended build tools.

I never pursued creating a simple IDE for Pico SDK further but someone easily could.

I am a little surprised no one has done it. I guess those who want it don't know how to while those who easily could haven't because they aren't interested in doing that or have other priorities.
Doesn't Thonny work with the Pico Micropython? Or did I dream that?

And there is always the project generator to create new projects, which generates CMake and VSCode projects for you. Could probably do with some features for pulling in third party libraries at some point.
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hippy
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Re: is the arduino support for RPI2040 better then CMAKE ????

Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:58 pm

jamesh wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:05 pm
hippy wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 6:36 pm
karadev wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 3:54 pm
i have not problems with install, seting or using cmake , but want to use a simple ide development like arduino ide for some students that talk to me for help making software and hardware with pico. need a easy way to explane to them how to install or setup seting for cmake envirment. ardu ide is simplem that i want to use directly from you :) own ide with raspberry pico icon on top left corner ;)
There isn't an official Raspberry Pi IDE as simple as the classic Arduino IDE, Mu or Thonny, but it would be simple enough to create such an IDE.
Doesn't Thonny work with the Pico Micropython? Or did I dream that?
That's correct . It was just an example of a "simple IDE", something one might replicate for C / Pico SDK programming.
jamesh wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:05 pm
And there is always the project generator to create new projects, which generates CMake and VSCode projects for you. Could probably do with some features for pulling in third party libraries at some point.
It's the "simple IDE" part which those wanting exactly that mostly find lacking, something which allows the 'edit, compile, upload, test, repeat' model from within the IDE. They mostly do just want a lightweight editor with 'click to compile it', 'click to upload' options. Though "it would be great if..." soon follows.

I found my original Pi proof of concept code but it's rather incomplete - though more complete than I recalled. However one can run it with "python3 picoide.py" from within a Pico SDK C project directory and click Compile->CMake or Compile->Make and it will. Recommended to run from a Terminal shell because it prints output there, I never added a console shell capture area on screen. Also, best to clone a project directory because it builds in that, not in './build/' and it's "as is" and I'm accepting no responsibility for any bugs or unanticipated behaviour.

Doing it properly is on my To Do list but hasn't percolated towards the top. I might be convinced to make it at least a bit better if there is any interest.

picoide.zip
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pidd
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Re: is the arduino support for RPI2040 better then CMAKE ????

Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:27 am

I used geany initially which I had setup to do the cmake/make, it is handy that it has a projects to have all the project files at the ready - it is possibly capable of much more than I've realised.

However I tend to use nano now and cmake/make manually - its hardly a chore. I quite like nano, its quirky enough to make it interesting but solid and capable stable at the same time.

Cmake I pare down to the minimum and put includes in the code, that way I hardly edit Cmakelists.txt ...... what a Munster cmake is!

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Gavinmc42
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Re: is the arduino support for RPI2040 better then CMAKE ????

Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:36 am

I use Geany on all my platforms as my default editor/IDE for most languages.

But anyone who can add Boards to the Arduino IDE will have minimal problems with Pico.
Anyone familiar with cmake on Linux will also find that solution works.

Just use the method you are familiar with.
"Better " is just an opinion.

Anyone got Rust running on Pico yet? :lol:
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Re: is the arduino support for RPI2040 better then CMAKE ????

Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:56 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:36 am
Anyone got Rust running on Pico yet? :lol:
You might be surprised how little it would take.

https://github.com/rust-lang/rust-bindgen.git

matiasilva
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Re: is the arduino support for RPI2040 better then CMAKE ????

Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:39 am

I've used both the Pico C SDK and the Arduino IDE in my embedded programming, starting with the Arduino IDE first.

1. Neither is inherently better or worse. In my view, they're just two options you have to do the same thing. The Arduino ecosystem is set up so that getting started is super easy and "standard" across a range of micro-controllers while the Pico C SDK might allow you to take advantage of Pico/RP2040-specific things that the Arduino ecosystem can't due to its generality. The code you write with the C SDK will probably have a smaller footprint but will have greater portability if written in Arduino. Try both! As you mention education in your later comment, the Arduino IDE might be a good place to start and then your students could "graduate" onto the C SDK once they're hooked onto the Pico :D

2. Same answer as above! If the goal is to get a program or sketch running on the Pico, both do the job.

3. There really is no need to! The flexibility of the C SDK (what you refer to as cmake) is what's so great about it. You can use ANY editor you wish. Anything built on top of the C SDK will inevitably be limited in some way or some choices will have to be made about its design.

Hope this helps and feel free to follow up!

hippy
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Re: is the arduino support for RPI2040 better then CMAKE ????

Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:43 am

pidd wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:27 am
I tend to use nano now and cmake/make manually - its hardly a chore.
Me too but that's because we have a good idea of what we are doing and are comfortable doing it.

That's not so for D&T students and similar when they start out, particularly under Windows where the notion of anything but a GUI Editor or IDE is alien to them.

The success of Arduino comes down to the Arduino IDE. Being as simple as it is it allows people who don't really know what they are doing to copy and paste code, tweak it, and get things to run without having to worry about the IDE itself or build system at all. They find VS Code and similar too intimidating, daunting, and over-whelming, 'too complicated'.

One would not usually put a student who wants to learn to fly in a cockpit with hundreds of instruments and expect them not to be fazed. Some may even throw in the towel right there and then. That's why the basics are taught on trainers with a stick and a few important gauges and indicators. Start simple and lead them to the more complicated.

And that's why people keep on asking about Arduino IDE, whether there is a similar offering for Pico SDK development. They want that simple option they feel comfortable using.

jamesh
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Re: is the arduino support for RPI2040 better then CMAKE ????

Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:58 am

I would argue that the Pico SDK is simple and easy to use, a page or two of instructions gets you up and running. It's certainly not like dropping a new pilot in to the seat of an A380, the flight manual certainly has more than one page.
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hippy
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Re: is the arduino support for RPI2040 better then CMAKE ????

Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:43 am

jamesh wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:58 am
I would argue that the Pico SDK is simple and easy to use, a page or two of instructions gets you up and running. It's certainly not like dropping a new pilot in to the seat of an A380, the flight manual certainly has more than one page.
If 'what there is' is good enough I am not sure why people keep asking for something else.

There's obviously a disconnect somewhere.
Last edited by hippy on Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

jamesh
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Re: is the arduino support for RPI2040 better then CMAKE ????

Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:48 am

About ten people have asked for something else, one at least a major PlatformIO fan, so somewhat biased.

Considering the number of Pico's sold, that's not a huge reason to change anything, but like I said, we'll look at the instructions to see if they can be improved.
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pidd
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Re: is the arduino support for RPI2040 better then CMAKE ????

Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:07 pm

Despite the sdk and the documentation not being the way I'd have done it (you can please some of the people etc), learning and using both have been a breeze compared to other systems, I feel confident that given the motivation I could tackle most things with a Pico. Normally that level of comfort takes me very much longer to achieve.

The speed that complicated programs came out from non-insiders was incredible.

It gets a thumbs-up from me.

hippy
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Re: is the arduino support for RPI2040 better then CMAKE ????

Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:41 pm

I am happy with it all - installation and use. I hit a few hurdles, have a few more to overcome, but it's been far easier than other environments I have encountered.

But that doesn't mean everyone else finds it that way, or that things couldn't be made easier for those who do want it even easier. And, just because people may not be demanding something easier, doesn't mean they wouldn't like something easier, wouldn't be happier with something easier.

Perhaps those who are in that position are simply too shy to speak out because they know they will be told that what there is is easy enough, millions have been sold, millions are on backlog, so their minority opinion isn't particularly relevant.

A simple IDE would make my life easier on Windows. I don't like VS Code so I'm currently switching between Notepad and Command Prompt and that quickly becomes a PITA. Despite that I can still say I am happy with what there is but that doesn't mean I can't be happier still.

That is what drove me down the path of considering a simple IDE. I also figured others would be in the same situation as me, that others might like the same for the Raspberry Pi Desktop. I would.

It would be better IMO if Raspberry Pi could produce such a simple IDE but it has been clearly stated that they have no intention of doing so; thus it falls to the community to create such a thing.

Pico SDK also gets a thumbs-up from me.

A simple cross-platform IDE would get a thumbs-up as well.

matiasilva
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Re: is the arduino support for RPI2040 better then CMAKE ????

Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:18 pm

Perhaps those who are in that position are simply too shy to speak out because they know they will be told that what there is is easy enough, millions have been sold, millions are on backlog, so their minority opinion isn't particularly relevant.
There is also the vast majority for whom the current SDK works completely fine on all platforms and haven't spoken out because there is no need to.

There is a working solution offered (multiple now, with the Arduino IDE) but if one dislikes a part of that or wishes to use their own tool, the SDK has that flexibility, but in my opinion, one should then "keep both pieces" not ask for a different solution.

jamesh
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Re: is the arduino support for RPI2040 better then CMAKE ????

Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:37 pm

hippy wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:41 pm
A simple IDE would make my life easier on Windows. I don't like VS Code so I'm currently switching between Notepad and Command Prompt and that quickly becomes a PITA. Despite that I can still say I am happy with what there is but that doesn't mean I can't be happier still.

That is what drove me down the path of considering a simple IDE. I also figured others would be in the same situation as me, that others might like the same for the Raspberry Pi Desktop. I would.

It would be better IMO if Raspberry Pi could produce such a simple IDE but it has been clearly stated that they have no intention of doing so; thus it falls to the community to create such a thing.

Pico SDK also gets a thumbs-up from me.

A simple cross-platform IDE would get a thumbs-up as well.
In its basic installation,. VSCode IS a pretty simple IDE. Editor, terminal etc. It just works.


As for doing our own simple IDE, that's a multi man year project, just not cost effective for us. And seems little point in reinventing the wheel. People cry out for standardisation, so we went with VSCode, and look what happens!
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dbrion06
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Re: is the arduino support for RPI2040 better then CMAKE ????

Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:02 pm

Why, oh why did opencv devloppers , dlib developper and tons of others forget Arduino and use CMake?

(oh: seems that arduino cannot work easily in CLI mode; seems they have a limited number of developpers, and they develop an editor (I prefer vim) , a slow package manager and a very slow building system... reinventing 3 wheels ...at least...).

hippy
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Re: is the arduino support for RPI2040 better then CMAKE ????

Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:18 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:37 pm
In its basic installation,. VSCode IS a pretty simple IDE. Editor, terminal etc. It just works.
Indeed it does and I am sure plenty are happy with it. I simply think there are better alternatives for me and like-minded others.
jamesh wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:37 pm
As for doing our own simple IDE, that's a multi man year project, just not cost effective for us.
That surprises me because I was thinking it would be a couple of all-nighters for a bedroom programmer, maybe a month to create a genuinely useful and usable 0.1 release. Certainly a lot less than years.

I guess it depends on how simple one makes one's simple IDE.

hippy
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Re: is the arduino support for RPI2040 better then CMAKE ????

Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:41 pm

dbrion06 wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:02 pm
Why, oh why did opencv devloppers , dlib developper and tons of others forget Arduino and use CMake?
My guess would be it was because they aimed for a particular target audience and did not care so much if that did not suit other sections of their potential audience ?

One should also ask why the Arduino IDE was created when there were perfectly good tools already out there ?

My explanation would be that they sought to cater for the audience which preferred something else.

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Re: is the arduino support for RPI2040 better then CMAKE ????

Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:46 pm

hippy wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:18 pm
I guess it depends on how simple one makes one's simple IDE.
Never mind what, there is always going to be "why didn't you do it this way instead".

I guess I'll have to look at using VScode to find if it does offer me anything above and beyond (oozing my usual pessimism).

WestfW
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Re: is the arduino support for RPI2040 better then CMAKE ????

Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:00 am

The Official Arduino support uses MBedOS in between your sketch and the Pico SDK code, and it looks like it mostly uses a pre-compiled mbed/rp2040 library (I don't see cmake included anywhere, so I don't think it can re-build the Mbed library "from scratch")
That means it has extra overhead and less flexibility compared to using the SDK with CMake.
OTOH, it means you also have access to MBed features, and it has the Arduino "ease of install and use."

So it's a toss-up. I was sort-of hoping for more of a bare-metal implementation, using minimal SDK code.

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