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rin67630
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Is the raspberry foundation flipping blue?

Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:16 am

The Pico really looks very Arduino-like (which website is blue).
Unfortunately the new Pico stages no Wi-Fi network...
What are its unique selling points?

cleverca22
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Re: Is the raspberry foundation flipping blue?

Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:20 am

i think the PIO is the biggest feature, everything else looks like fairly standard MCU features

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Gavinmc42
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Re: Is the raspberry foundation flipping blue?

Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:35 am

Don't remember an Arduino doing this.
https://github.com/Wren6991/picodvi

Could it do three DVI?
Just a standard micro?
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rin67630
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Re: Is the raspberry foundation flipping blue?

Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:47 am

Why would one want to do video stuff with a microcontroller?
Just to prove you can?
You probably have better usage of your time...

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Re: Is the raspberry foundation flipping blue?

Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:27 am

rin67630 wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:16 am
The Pico really looks very Arduino-like (which website is blue).
Unfortunately the new Pico stages no Wi-Fi network...
What are its unique selling points?

When Arduino release their RP2040 Board you will be able to compare features and pricing:

https://blog.arduino.cc/2021/01/20/welc ... ntrollers/
The information is out there....you just have to let it in.

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Re: Is the raspberry foundation flipping blue?

Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:39 am

rin67630 wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:47 am
Why would one want to do video stuff with a microcontroller?
Just to prove you can?
You probably have better usage of your time...
Wrong question. Why would someone want to some highspeed realtime i/o on a microcontroller?
There are lots of answers to that. DVI is just one exampls of capability.

Search this forum for "realtime". Lot's of people want that. It seems the Pico can do so much more that an ATMega Arduino or most other MCUs.
Gavinmc42 wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:35 am
Don't remember an Arduino doing this.
https://github.com/Wren6991/picodvi

Could it do three DVI?
Just a standard micro?
With some of the core-local hardware on RP2040, and a neat encoding trick, I could do pixel-doubled TMDS encode on-the-fly using around 60% of an M0+ (running at 252 MHz, for 640x480p 60 Hz DVI)
PIO can yeet out data streams at system clock frequency, and drive a 1/10th rate clock on the side, with pretty minimal programming
Some of the DMA features are help with putting together the sync/blanking patterns on the fly, rather than having the patterns flat in memory
With the second processor utterly unencumbered, you can render some pretty graphics to put on your DVI display. There is even enough RAM for a QVGA framebuffer!

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Re: Is the raspberry foundation flipping blue?

Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:54 am

PiGraham wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:39 am
rin67630 wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:47 am
Why would one want to do video stuff with a microcontroller?
Just to prove you can?
You probably have better usage of your time...
Wrong question. Why would someone want to some highspeed realtime i/o on a microcontroller?
There are lots of answers to that. DVI is just one exampls of capability.

Search this forum for "realtime". Lot's of people want that. It seems the Pico can do so much more that an ATMega Arduino or most other MCUs.
Gavinmc42 wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:35 am
Don't remember an Arduino doing this.
https://github.com/Wren6991/picodvi

Could it do three DVI?
Just a standard micro?
With some of the core-local hardware on RP2040, and a neat encoding trick, I could do pixel-doubled TMDS encode on-the-fly using around 60% of an M0+ (running at 252 MHz, for 640x480p 60 Hz DVI)
PIO can yeet out data streams at system clock frequency, and drive a 1/10th rate clock on the side, with pretty minimal programming
Some of the DMA features are help with putting together the sync/blanking patterns on the fly, rather than having the patterns flat in memory
With the second processor utterly unencumbered, you can render some pretty graphics to put on your DVI display. There is even enough RAM for a QVGA framebuffer!
Exactly this. To have a $4 MC board do this means you have a LOT of performance for your money. That performance doesn't have to be for DVI....

No-one has yet commented on the overclocking that was needed, which is odd.
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Re: Is the raspberry foundation flipping blue?

Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:55 am

Most non-simple uses I can think of would need Wifi.

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Re: Is the raspberry foundation flipping blue?

Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:02 am

Next Pi should have a socket for the chip :mrgreen:
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Re: Is the raspberry foundation flipping blue?

Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:14 am

piglet wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:55 am
Most non-simple uses I can think of would need Wifi.
Think harder. ;)

This chip would work well in a low cost PLC.

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Re: Is the raspberry foundation flipping blue?

Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:15 am

I can think of plenty of datalogging applications where data is written to the flash. There's also USB connectivity for reading data back, or for permanent connection. Or any sort of driving of LED displays or Neopixels. Christmas light etc. The PWM block makes this very easy.

You can use a UART cable over larger distances, that should work fine for remote sensors (After all, that how we used to do it before wireless comms!), so the lack of Wifi should not be a problem for many applications.
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Re: Is the raspberry foundation flipping blue?

Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:31 am

" lack of Wifi should not be a problem for many applications"
Yup. In a lot of industrial applications Wifi is a non starter. RS485 bus with modbus or EtherNet/IP.

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Re: Is the raspberry foundation flipping blue?

Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:42 am

RichardUK wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:31 am
" lack of Wifi should not be a problem for many applications"
Yup. In a lot of industrial applications Wifi is a non starter. RS485 bus with modbus or EtherNet/IP.
Cannot remember if we have a PIO program to do RS485. Doubt it would be too hard, but obviously need some voltage shifters.
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Re: Is the raspberry foundation flipping blue?

Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:46 am

piglet wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:55 am
Most non-simple uses I can think of would need Wifi.
You can do that by mating a Pico with an ESP. The ESP can work as a serial WiFi adapter.
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Re: Is the raspberry foundation flipping blue?

Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:58 am

rin67630 wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:47 am
Why would one want to do video stuff with a microcontroller?
Why do anything?

I personally think it's a cool idea. Looks like the Pico would make a great retro computer.

I can see that the Pico would be a good platform for building OSs. OberonOS, AmigaOS clone, perhaps? FreeRTOS with VGA display? Lots of cool possibilities.
rin67630 wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:47 am
You probably have better usage of your time...

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Re: Is the raspberry foundation flipping blue?

Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:59 am

jamesh wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:15 am
I can think of plenty of datalogging applications..
I'm already looking at the PIO as a way to grab the serial bit streams used in the vintage computer that I look after at The National Museum of Computing.

It's a serial machine with a 6µS bit time and 48 bits in a "word time" so 2x24bit transfers needed. I've previously grabbed the words with a PIC and some very optimal machine code but that could only manage to grab 2 bit streams. With a Pico I should be able to grab 8 (or maybe 7 if I need to use one PIO for a sync pulse).

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Re: Is the raspberry foundation flipping blue?

Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:13 pm

jamesh wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:54 am
No-one has yet commented on the overclocking that was needed, which is odd.
Noticed yesterday in readme something about 252MHz but then guessed it may not be cpu clock but some pixel clock
I could do pixel-doubled TMDS encode on-the-fly using around 60% of an M0+ (running at 252 MHz, for 640x480p 60 Hz DVI)
but when re-checking this now
https://github.com/Wren6991/picodvi/blo ... main.c#L64
I don't see any divisor set for cpu clock, does it mean the Cortex M0+ clock is 252MHz?

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Re: Is the raspberry foundation flipping blue?

Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:38 pm

fanoush wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:13 pm
jamesh wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:54 am
No-one has yet commented on the overclocking that was needed, which is odd.
Noticed yesterday in readme something about 252MHz but then guessed it may not be cpu clock but some pixel clock
I could do pixel-doubled TMDS encode on-the-fly using around 60% of an M0+ (running at 252 MHz, for 640x480p 60 Hz DVI)
but when re-checking this now
https://github.com/Wren6991/picodvi/blo ... main.c#L64
I don't see any divisor set for cpu clock, does it mean the Cortex M0+ clock is 252MHz?
yes.
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Re: Is the raspberry foundation flipping blue?

Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:52 pm

Amazing.

Maybe it could do 480MHz to do USB 2.0 high speed in software then ? :lol:
it is not even twice that much

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Re: Is the raspberry foundation flipping blue?

Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:54 pm

piglet wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:55 am
Most non-simple uses I can think of would need Wifi.
+1

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Re: Is the raspberry foundation flipping blue?

Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:06 pm

rin67630 wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:54 pm
piglet wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:55 am
Most non-simple uses I can think of would need Wifi.
+1
-1

Lots of uses don't need WiFi.
Data loggers, robot/CNC control, HMI, controllers. Look at how many application there are for no-Wi-Fi Arduino.
Many that might use Wi-Fi could use LORA or other RF modules. Pico is much more capable than ESP8266 but could use one of those for Wi-Fi if needed and still be crazy cheap.

Adding Wi-Fi & BLE would probably have doubled the cost and not doubled the utility of the board.

No doubt there will be boards that come out using the mcu and adding various comms features.


If you can't think of a use for a Pico don't buy one.

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rin67630
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Re: Is the raspberry foundation flipping blue?

Fri Jan 22, 2021 2:07 pm

PiGraham wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:06 pm
Adding Wi-Fi & BLE would probably have doubled the cost
An ESP board has WiFI and costs LESS.

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Re: Is the raspberry foundation flipping blue?

Fri Jan 22, 2021 2:18 pm

rin67630 wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 2:07 pm
An ESP board has WiFI and costs LESS.
sure, so just connect it to pico over UART and problem solved, ESP8266 chip with AT commands firmware or SLIP would do - depending on whether you want to handle tcp/ip stack on pico or not.

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Re: Is the raspberry foundation flipping blue?

Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:04 pm

rin67630 wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 2:07 pm
PiGraham wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:06 pm
Adding Wi-Fi & BLE would probably have doubled the cost
An ESP board has WiFI and costs LESS.
Can I suggest then, that the Pico is not for you, and you should buy the ESP board? Sounds like it would be a better fit.

Just because you cannot see a use for something , doesn't mean that thing doesn't have a use, as I am sure you will find out in the coming weeks as we blog about the projects that have already been done on the Pico.
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Re: Is the raspberry foundation flipping blue?

Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:01 pm

rin67630 wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 2:07 pm
PiGraham wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:06 pm
Adding Wi-Fi & BLE would probably have doubled the cost
An ESP board has WiFI and costs LESS.
Some basic ESP8266 boards costs less, some many cost more, but they DO LESS. They are no alternative to a pico, but they are a cheap option to add wifi to a pico if you want it.

Of course I'm only guessing at the doubling, but I bet it would be substantially more than the £1 price of noname clone 8266 board. Even if was there are many such boards on eBay for >£4.
Last edited by PiGraham on Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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