rcfa
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8GB Version?

Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:51 pm

It's a bit odd, IF any RasPi needs 8GB, then one that's specifically designed to be a desktop system, rather than one designed for various embedded projects. So, the 400 not being available in an 8GB version is, well, astounding. Is that coming anytime soon?

Also, in that keyboard would be the perfect amount of space for a USB3-NVMe/mSATA interface and card, so we wouldn't have to boot that thing from these fragile and slow microSD cards.

Just saying...

trejan
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Re: 8GB Version?

Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:58 pm

Both have been already suggested in the big Pi 400 thread.
rcfa wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:51 pm
So, the 400 not being available in an 8GB version is, well, astounding. Is that coming anytime soon?
No. Guaranteed long wait and it hasn't even been prototyped.
rcfa wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:51 pm
Also, in that keyboard would be the perfect amount of space for a USB3-NVMe/mSATA interface and card, so we wouldn't have to boot that thing from these fragile and slow microSD cards.
There is a single PCIe connection and that is already used by the USB 3 controller. No NVMe or SATA possible without it getting expensive and making the Pi 400 thicker than it is now.

fruitoftheloom
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Re: 8GB Version?

Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:02 pm

rcfa wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:51 pm
It's a bit odd, IF any RasPi needs 8GB, then one that's specifically designed to be a desktop system, rather than one designed for various embedded projects. So, the 400 not being available in an 8GB version is, well, astounding. Is that coming anytime soon?

Also, in that keyboard would be the perfect amount of space for a USB3-NVMe/mSATA interface and card, so we wouldn't have to boot that thing from these fragile and slow microSD cards.

Just saying...

Just saying, you have a fundamental lack of understanding about hardware inside the RPi 400:

https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2020/ ... and-review
The information is out there....you just have to let it in.

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jahboater
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Re: 8GB Version?

Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:04 pm

rcfa wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:51 pm
so we wouldn't have to boot that thing from these fragile and slow microSD cards.
I personally don't find them fragile at all (vaguely remember one problem, long ago, in many years of using countless Pi's on a daily basis), and not slow enough to be a problem (8GB of memory means most stuff ends up in the cache).
Pi4 8GB and Pi4 4GB running Raspberry Pi OS 64-bit

alphanumeric
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Re: 8GB Version?

Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:23 pm

Use a name brand quality A1 SD card and I think you will be surprised at how fast a Pi 4B or 3B boots up.
It seems a far amount of people cheap out on the SD card, or buy from questionable sources. Just my 2 cents.

jamesh
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Re: 8GB Version?

Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:26 pm

rcfa wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:51 pm
It's a bit odd, IF any RasPi needs 8GB, then one that's specifically designed to be a desktop system, rather than one designed for various embedded projects. So, the 400 not being available in an 8GB version is, well, astounding. Is that coming anytime soon?

Also, in that keyboard would be the perfect amount of space for a USB3-NVMe/mSATA interface and card, so we wouldn't have to boot that thing from these fragile and slow microSD cards.

Just saying...
In our testing there was no real benefit to 8gb over 4gb when used as the average desktop. It's only when doing real power stuff that it started to make a difference.

Adding nvme etc would increase the price a considerable amount, for something a lot of people would not use. And takes up a usb3 port.
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Imperf3kt
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Re: 8GB Version?

Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:17 pm

trejan wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:58 pm
Both have been already suggested in the big Pi 400 thread.
rcfa wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:51 pm
So, the 400 not being available in an 8GB version is, well, astounding. Is that coming anytime soon?
No. Guaranteed long wait and it hasn't even been prototyped.
I, personally, do not believe these linked posts.
There have been too many instances where a product is denied and then only days later is released.
This is typical NDA behaviour of the RPT guys, and is becoming predictable.

I could be wrong, time will tell.
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jamesh
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Re: 8GB Version?

Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:08 am

Imperf3kt wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:17 pm
trejan wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:58 pm
Both have been already suggested in the big Pi 400 thread.
rcfa wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:51 pm
So, the 400 not being available in an 8GB version is, well, astounding. Is that coming anytime soon?
No. Guaranteed long wait and it hasn't even been prototyped.
I, personally, do not believe these linked posts.
There have been too many instances where a product is denied and then only days later is released.
This is typical NDA behaviour of the RPT guys, and is becoming predictable.

I could be wrong, time will tell.
You are wrong.

Also, can you quote any of us denying a product and it appearing days later?
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ash73
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Re: 8GB Version?

Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:40 am

Just curious, why did RPF decide not to use onboard eMMC flash? Not as fast as a SSD but at least it would stopped kids in class stealing the SD cards.

AndrewPiEater
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Re: 8GB Version?

Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:50 am

ash73 wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:40 am
Just curious, why did RPF decide not to use onboard eMMC flash? Not as fast as a SSD but at least it would stopped kids in class stealing the SD cards.
Mess up your OS and brick your PI, switch SD cards, Pi unbricked.

cleverca22
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Re: 8GB Version?

Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:52 am

AndrewPiEater wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:50 am
ash73 wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:40 am
Just curious, why did RPF decide not to use onboard eMMC flash? Not as fast as a SSD but at least it would stopped kids in class stealing the SD cards.
Mess up your OS and brick your PI, switch SD cards, Pi unbricked.
yeah, if it has onboard flash, you would have to go thru the relatively complicated CM4 flashing procedure to unbrick it

it would also explode the number of variants, every flash size, times the number of keyboard tops

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jahboater
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Re: 8GB Version?

Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:29 am

AndrewPiEater wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:50 am
ash73 wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:40 am
Just curious, why did RPF decide not to use onboard eMMC flash? Not as fast as a SSD but at least it would stopped kids in class stealing the SD cards.
Mess up your OS and brick your PI, switch SD cards, Pi unbricked.
If the onboard eMMC dies of old age then its buy a new Pi time, if an SD card dies just switch cards.
Pi4 8GB and Pi4 4GB running Raspberry Pi OS 64-bit

fanoush
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Re: 8GB Version?

Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:34 am

ash73 wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:40 am
Just curious, why did RPF decide not to use onboard eMMC flash?
To bring the cost down. BTW the Samsung Evo+ or Sandisk Extreme cards are quite fast and cheap.
Just removed card from my 2GB pi4, put to 400 and had everything as before and better, it was that easy.

hippy
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Re: 8GB Version?

Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:03 pm

jahboater wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:29 am
If the onboard eMMC dies of old age then its buy a new Pi time, if an SD card dies just switch cards.
The solution to that would be to fit eMMC and an SD Card socket. Wear the eMMC out and you simply move to using SD Card. PcDuino and other boards already offer that; the SD Card takes precedence when used.

trejan
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Re: 8GB Version?

Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:21 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:08 am
Also, can you quote any of us denying a product and it appearing days later?
It wasn't days later but the closest was a 6 week gap between a denial and the surprise 512MB upgrade for the Pi 1. I'm still assuming that the Pi 400 8GB doesn't exist though.
hippy wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:03 pm
jahboater wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:29 am
If the onboard eMMC dies of old age then its buy a new Pi time, if an SD card dies just switch cards.
The solution to that would be to fit eMMC and an SD Card socket. Wear the eMMC out and you simply move to using SD Card. PcDuino and other boards already offer that; the SD Card takes precedence when used.
You'd need to rework the SoC to add another set of GPIOs to dedicate to this extra card/eMMC. There is 1 spare controller but no spare GPIOs to map it to without shrinking the GPIO header.

hippy
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Re: 8GB Version?

Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:25 pm

trejan wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:21 pm
hippy wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:03 pm
jahboater wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:29 am
If the onboard eMMC dies of old age then its buy a new Pi time, if an SD card dies just switch cards.
The solution to that would be to fit eMMC and an SD Card socket. Wear the eMMC out and you simply move to using SD Card. PcDuino and other boards already offer that; the SD Card takes precedence when used.
You'd need to rework the SoC to add another set of GPIOs to dedicate to this extra card/eMMC. There is 1 spare controller but no spare GPIOs to map it to without shrinking the GPIO header.
Or use the existing GPIO expander, or add another, and add whatever switching were needed. I am sure some way would be found if they wanted to implement it along with plenty of reasons why they would choose not to.

The main point is that things could be designed in such a way that a Pi doesn't need to be thrown away when its eMMC wears out. I suppose it already is given one could go to USB boot rather than SD Card.

trejan
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Re: 8GB Version?

Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:37 pm

hippy wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:25 pm
Or use the existing GPIO expander, or add another, and add whatever switching were needed.
You can't connect SD/eMMC to a GPIO expander. A mux chip would do it but it needs to be designed for the SD interface and be able to handle the voltage switching. There are problems with the dual SD card adapters being sold for the Pi because they're permanently wired for 3.3V operation and don't work on a Pi 4. You need to disable UHS.

hippy
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Re: 8GB Version?

Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:21 pm

trejan wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:37 pm
A mux chip would do it but it needs to be designed for the SD interface and be able to handle the voltage switching.
Yup. If it were done I would assume they would do that.

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