fruitoftheloom
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:12 pm

Wrongway wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:53 pm
Does anyone know whats on the included micro SD card. Is it NOOBS, one of the three Raspberry Pi OS versions or is it a special thats been done for the Pi 400.

The NoobS installer / chooser is no longer a recommendation.


If you buy the full kit the SD Card has Raspberry Pi with Desktop Operating System.


It runs the same Operating Systems as the RPi 4B CM4 providing they include the latest kernel / firmware.
Last edited by fruitoftheloom on Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:13 pm

Does Broadcom continue to fabricate older revisions, or can we expect the Pi4 to eventually migrate to the C0 processor rev?

Also, where are these manufactured?
From the photos it looks like it's built in the UK. Excellent.
Last edited by lurk101 on Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:13 pm

rpiMike wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:59 am
I like the GPIO labelling:

Image
Thanks for sharing the picture! So a small GPIO Extension cable will be a nice addon) if HATs can't be connected directly .Image

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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:27 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:06 pm
bomblord wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:03 pm
The blog post he uses and bolds the words "Faster, cooler" Raspberry Pi 4.

Is this actually running faster than a stock Pi 4? And is cooler just describing it being neat/interesting as opposed to operating temperature?

Edit: I seen the discussion on this page now (only went through the first page and didn't see anyone talking about it)

https://www.tomshardware.com/amp/news/r ... r-thermals
Thanks I appreciate the detail!

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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:34 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:00 pm
cleverca22 wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:26 pm
but which peripherals are even unused enough to reduce the heat generation when gated?
is it just things like DSI/CSI being turned off, since the pi400 lacks those connectors?
or is it features the public doesn't even know of, that you cant name?
Remember this gating can turn on and off many times per second. So it's not a turn this block off because we are not using for 10s type of thing. You could turn something off for 10ms every 20 milliseconds and save 50% ! TBH, the savings are less than that, you might turn a block off for only 10% or less over its duty cycle, but that is still an appreciable saving.

Blocks like 3D, HVS, codecs could all be turned off for perhaps a few milliseconds every frame, and even sub parts of those blocks perhaps - I do not know the details.
Exactly this. There's also "power-gating" which is not quite the same thing as clock-gating. Power-gating reduces leakage power by basically turning off the power to unused parts of the circuits. Normally done to large areas and sometimes statically, sometimes dynamically but at a relatively slow rate. This sounds more like what @cleverca22 was describing. I doubt they are doing this. Clock-gating reduces the dynamic power by dynamically (on a per-clock basis) disabling a flip-flop's actual clock signal or using a flip-flops clock enable signal. The former saves more power (just the clock toggle can generate a surprising amount of power on modern high-speed chips). You can make large power improvements with relatively little work by clock-gating wide internal data-buses. The gains entirely depend on the design.

Part binning is not useful when you have a single product and it is *not* something every chip manufacture does. But something that's kind of similar and more common is static voltage scaling. The speed of silicon varies across a wafer and between wafers. When a chip is tested during manufacturing the speed of the silicon is measured using a special circuit to identify the faster ones. The faster chips can then be statically (i.e. always) configured to run at a lower than normal voltage which reduces power while still functioning as normal. There's also dynamic voltage scaling which is different and design-dependent, not sure if they'd be using that - again, not everyone does.
Last edited by kingosticks on Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:39 pm

kingosticks wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:34 pm
You can make large power improvements with relatively little work by clock-gating wide internal data-buses. The gains entirely depend on the design.
I guess like Intel turning off the power to the unused portions of large registers.
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:40 pm

WIll there be some key caps available for changing the keyboard to Swedish/Finnish?

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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:50 pm

is the GPIO header "keyed" on the Raspberry Pi 400?

if not then the ribbon cable shown may need some "TLC" to fit.... ;)
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:53 pm

Could you connect this wirelessly, either via WIFI or Bluetooth to an iPad for a display?

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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:00 pm

Paul Webster wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:03 am
I see from Jeff's teardown video (at 4:40) that the new Ethernet controller supports POE+ - so I presume the issue is the lack of wiring inside the Pi400 to take power from there.
Supporting the new controller is interesting though ... perhaps it means that the next RPi release has built-in POE using it.
That isn't a controller. You're looking at the Ethernet transformer. The model B Pi has an equivalent transformer integrated into the RJ45 socket so this isn't a hint at a future Pi with built-in PoE.
LTolledo wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:50 pm
is the GPIO header "keyed" on the Raspberry Pi 400?
Yes. You can see the notch.

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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:07 pm

LTolledo wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:50 pm
is the GPIO header "keyed" on the Raspberry Pi 400?

if not then the ribbon cable shown may need some "TLC" to fit.... ;)

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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:09 pm

paulhothersall wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:19 am
please sell just the board as a SKU, perhaps with stick on heat sinks.

Its a pi with all IO on one side. this is a huge win for many many projects. I can already see me getting a bunch of these, especially with the higher clocked CPU helps, and it will be eWaste just to toss the keyboard for them.
I agree. Would be very nice if the bare PCB was available.
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:15 pm

trejan wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:00 pm
LTolledo wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:50 pm
is the GPIO header "keyed" on the Raspberry Pi 400?
Yes. You can see the notch.
oh goodie yes! :D

so just stay away from those 80-wire ribbon cables... just to be sure.... :mrgreen:
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:20 pm

Candyjet wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:53 pm
Could you connect this wirelessly, either via WIFI or Bluetooth to an iPad for a display?
VNC over WIFI to the iPad should be possible.

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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:21 pm

trejan wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:00 pm
That isn't a controller. You're looking at the Ethernet transformer. The model B Pi has an equivalent transformer integrated into the RJ45 socket so this isn't a hint at a future Pi with built-in PoE.
Thanks

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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:33 pm

jdb wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:09 pm
jamesh wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:00 pm
cleverca22 wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:26 pm
but which peripherals are even unused enough to reduce the heat generation when gated?
is it just things like DSI/CSI being turned off, since the pi400 lacks those connectors?
or is it features the public doesn't even know of, that you cant name?
Remember this gating can turn on and off many times per second. So it's not a turn this block off because we are not using for 10s type of thing. You could turn something off for 10ms every 20 milliseconds and save 50% ! TBH, the savings are less than that, you might turn a block off for only 10% or less over its duty cycle, but that is still an appreciable saving.

Blocks like 3D, HVS, codecs could all be turned off for perhaps a few milliseconds every frame, and even sub parts of those blocks perhaps - I do not know the details.
Clock gating in hardware operates at a much finer granularity than that. It's at the microarchitectural level, and operates on a cycle-to-cycle basis. Chip synthesis tools can recognise conditions where inputs to a logic block are static, and outputs don't change, and choose to combinatorially disconnect the clock at a high level in the hierarchy. This saves dynamic power while operating *as well as* idle power.
Thanks JDB, I knew it was fined grained, just not that fine grained!
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:37 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:20 pm
I wondered when people would notice the gap in the revision codes. The CM4 has been on there for a week...

Online page has now updated.
"b" is missing as well ...

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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:43 pm

Really excited about this product, but don't understand why they would not use full size HDMI connectors. If the purpose is for education and on something that gets moved around, I expect the display cables are going to be a big problem. I've broken a few and I am extremely careful, now imagine the same with a room full of 3rd graders.

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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:04 pm

LimboMan wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:37 pm
I really like the GPIO pins on the back- seems perfect for plugging in a monitor like this: https://www.waveshare.com/product/displ ... for-pi.htm
I have two of these (>40$) 1024x600 7" DPMI displays, this is the one of my LightStandPi:
viewtopic.php?p=1709675#p1709628
https://stamm-wilbrandt.de/en/forum/20201102_154601.jpg
20201102_154601.15%.jpg
20201102_154601.15%.jpg
20201102_154601.15%.jpg (78 KiB) Viewed 1044 times

According Pi400 GPIO numbering
viewtopic.php?f=63&t=289934&start=75#p1752581

that hat would go up from the GPIO port of the Pi400, and there seems to be nothing on the RGB LCD HAT that could collide with Pi400 enclosure.
I will test when I will have received my Pi400 (they said in at most 10 work days on order).


I would prefer to use my 26$ 1024x600 9" HDMI display though with Pi400 if not near to a bigger display.
Not only because its bigger, but also becuase 9" display is rgb888 while the Waveshare displays are only rgb666, see direct comparison:
viewtopic.php?p=1709675#p1716452

I have powered Pi4B with lots of stuff attached without issues from Anker 13000mAh power bank:
viewtopic.php?f=45&t=222525#p1721926

I will post photo of "Pi400 laptop" when the small wireless keyboard and Pi4B will be replaced by Pi400:
Image
https://stamm-wilbrandt.de/2wheel_balancing_robot
https://stamm-wilbrandt.de/en#raspcatbot
https://github.com/Hermann-SW/Raspberry_v1_camera_global_external_shutter
https://github.com/Hermann-SW/raspiraw
https://stamm-wilbrandt.de/en/Raspberry_camera.html

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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:19 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:29 am
PoE , no transformer small enough to fit in the case.(Note, I never mentioned PoE in my post)
Audio jack - no room on back of case (also not mentioned in my post)
(...)
Of course, if it doesn't suit your use case, that's fine, use something else.
If CM4 based solution is really out of target price, forget it... But if this may have been done close to 100$ with CM4 included & possible M.2 user added storage I'm quite sure of the success, even at current SoC frequencies as running fast between two SD storage red lights in many desktop use cases is IMO not very useful. Such device may just replace many never moved basic laptops users lacking space buy for their small size!

Looking at some very small ip cameras (and switches that can be cascaded this way using a single cable) that can be PoE powered (have a look at Dahua IPC-HUM4231 for instance, that's a very very small & feature loaded case, with PoE) & not HW specialist, I did not expected a technical issue. But PI4 is more power hungry...

For audio jack, that's really small and adding a few millimeters in the design would not have been a deal breaker for most customers I presume. Many ways to cope with this, indeed, but with an added cost (monitor with sound output or BT headphones to avoid using all available USB) on the whole system bill.

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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:29 pm

lost wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:19 pm
jamesh wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:29 am
PoE , no transformer small enough to fit in the case.(Note, I never mentioned PoE in my post)
Audio jack - no room on back of case (also not mentioned in my post)
(...)
Of course, if it doesn't suit your use case, that's fine, use something else.
If CM4 based solution is really out of target price, forget it... But if this may have been done close to 100$ with CM4 included & possible M.2 user added storage I'm quite sure of the success, even at current SoC frequencies as running fast between two SD storage red lights in many desktop use cases is IMO not very useful. Such device may just replace many never moved basic laptops users lacking space buy for their small size!

Looking at some very small ip cameras (and switches that can be cascaded this way using a single cable) that can be PoE powered (have a look at Dahua IPC-HUM4231 for instance, that's a very very small & feature loaded case, with PoE) & not HW specialist, I did not expected a technical issue. But PI4 is more power hungry...

For audio jack, that's really small and adding a few millimeters in the design would not have been a deal breaker for most customers I presume. Many ways to cope with this, indeed, but with an added cost (monitor with sound output or BT headphones to avoid using all available USB) on the whole system bill.
The top of the design is the same as our keyboard, deliberately so as it makes everything much cheaper - plastic injection moulds are expensive to get right. So making the whole thing bigger is a non-starter. It's not a deal breaker for the customer to be bigger, but it is for the manufacturer.

As for making it CM4 based, if that really is important to people, there appears to be a gap in the market, which anyone can fill - after all, that's the whole point of the CM4. Might squeeze in under $100. Might not.
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:30 pm

dahlgren wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:43 pm
Really excited about this product, but don't understand why they would not use full size HDMI connectors. If the purpose is for education and on something that gets moved around, I expect the display cables are going to be a big problem. I've broken a few and I am extremely careful, now imagine the same with a room full of 3rd graders.
Need two connectors because the corporate twin monitor setup is a BIG market, and the back panel is already full - which is why there is no 3.5mm jack.
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:37 pm

Saw this as thought nice! Then saw the HDMI. What?

So you see this device being used beyond the hobbyist , in business and education? Micro HDMI will be a non-starter for business. Virtually every corp office uses full size HDMI and all the monitors they purchase typically come with full size HDMI and/or VGA /Displayport.

So you would ask a corp and their users to buy 1-2 (for office) cables at a minimum. Even at say $3/pc in bulk that is hundreds to thousands of dollars for something they literally already have hundreds of.

Also no typical business is going to use a system with an exposed SD card for the OS. The security issues are numerous. Could have at least made it internal with access via a screw panel.

This is a cool product, but there is some serious flaws that will constrain its adoption.

Still want one though...

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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:39 pm

Just curious but any explanation for the name/number? I would have expected something more wordy like Raspberry Pi Compute Keyboard 4.

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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:43 pm

lost wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:19 pm
jamesh wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:29 am
PoE , no transformer small enough to fit in the case.(Note, I never mentioned PoE in my post)
Audio jack - no room on back of case (also not mentioned in my post)
(...)
Of course, if it doesn't suit your use case, that's fine, use something else.
If CM4 based solution is really out of target price, forget it... But if this may have been done close to 100$ with CM4 included & possible M.2 user added storage I'm quite sure of the success, even at current SoC frequencies as running fast between two SD storage red lights in many desktop use cases is IMO not very useful. Such device may just replace many never moved basic laptops users lacking space buy for their small size!

Looking at some very small ip cameras (and switches that can be cascaded this way using a single cable) that can be PoE powered (have a look at Dahua IPC-HUM4231 for instance, that's a very very small & feature loaded case, with PoE) & not HW specialist, I did not expected a technical issue. But PI4 is more power hungry...

For audio jack, that's really small and adding a few millimeters in the design would not have been a deal breaker for most customers I presume. Many ways to cope with this, indeed, but with an added cost (monitor with sound output or BT headphones to avoid using all available USB) on the whole system bill.
If they can squeeze you headphone socket and tap out a USB3 to m.2 adaptor* and whatever else you want, then it gives them scope for a Plus model at $150/200 just for you ;-)

* and make it a 2230 length just to annoy some people ;-)
and it has to be an M2 to usb3 interface otherwise everyone would loose usb3 capability.
Doubt they are the cheapest and smallest thing to add.

Just take it, this is what they have made. Use it if it suits you, don't if it doesn't. Easy :-)

Buy a laptop if you want a computer under a keyboard and has lots of extras. They come with a "free" screen and integrated 'mouse' and batteries.

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