jamesh
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:48 pm

sdivx wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:37 pm
Saw this as thought nice! Then saw the HDMI. What?

So you see this device being used beyond the hobbyist , in business and education? Micro HDMI will be a non-starter for business. Virtually every corp office uses full size HDMI and all the monitors they purchase typically come with full size HDMI and/or VGA /Displayport.

So you would ask a corp and their users to buy 1-2 (for office) cables at a minimum. Even at say $3/pc in bulk that is hundreds to thousands of dollars for something they literally already have hundreds of.

Also no typical business is going to use a system with an exposed SD card for the OS. The security issues are numerous. Could have at least made it internal with access via a screw panel.

This is a cool product, but there is some serious flaws that will constrain its adoption.

Still want one though...
The money they save on buying the Pi400 dwarfs any $3 cable cost. Note the kit comes with the required cable and I am pretty sure that if a company wanted to buy a lot of these, then we could come to some deal! Every laptop or monitor I have had has come with a lot of cables I have NEVER used. I've paid for those, for nothing. At least like this you only pay for what you need.

Security of SD card is not a problem if handled right, we expect a lot of network based usage, so the SD card only contains something like VNC, or a browser interface. All security done off machine. Citrix would be a good example.

Or just have you own security cover screwed to the outside of the box I guess. Or super glue although that's a bit permanent, although at this price, you just replace the entire machine because corps are like that.
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:51 pm

Network boot completely invalidates the "SD cards are insecure" argument. In a thin-client corporate environment, you want to never have to physically *go* to a device to provision it, or have to track things like what software is on which SD card.

As James says, the client will typically run a web app (chromium) or a citrix terminal - loaded once, and run until the device is shut down or rebooted.
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:52 pm

Brilliant idea, its going to be a really hot seller.

Not for me though, a keyboard-less cased version (ie heatsinked) would be a consideration but it probably wouldn't be much cheaper.

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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:59 pm

sdivx wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:37 pm
Also no typical business is going to use a system with an exposed SD card for the OS.
They could seal the slot and/or permanently disable booting from USB or SD and allow only booting from ethernet making it into dumb thin client.
However for this use case power over ethernet would be nice too - one less cable.

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dickon
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:02 pm

I'm getting weird flashbacks to the late-'90s and the Network Computer...
As it is apparently board policy to disallow any criticism of anything, as it appears to criticise something is to criticise all the users of that something, I will no longer be commenting in threads which are not directly relevant to my uses of the Pi.

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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:05 pm

sdivx wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:37 pm
Saw this as thought nice! Then saw the HDMI. What?

So you see this device being used beyond the hobbyist , in business and education? Micro HDMI will be a non-starter for business. Virtually every corp office uses full size HDMI and all the monitors they purchase typically come with full size HDMI and/or VGA /Displayport.

So you would ask a corp and their users to buy 1-2 (for office) cables at a minimum. Even at say $3/pc in bulk that is hundreds to thousands of dollars for something they literally already have hundreds of.

Also no typical business is going to use a system with an exposed SD card for the OS. The security issues are numerous. Could have at least made it internal with access via a screw panel.

This is a cool product, but there is some serious flaws that will constrain its adoption.

Still want one though...
The market will decide, I guess!
If you think it can be done better, and you think there's a use case, be first to market and make a killing!
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:14 pm

karrika wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:40 pm
WIll there be some key caps available for changing the keyboard to Swedish/Finnish?
At the very least I'd like to see a kit with the UK keyboard and EU power supply. (The UK physical layout with the tall Enter key is close enough to all Nordic keyboards.)

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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:25 pm

I was wondering when something like this was coming out. The Pi keyboard looked suspect, it is also my favorite keyboard. A plastic plug for the exposed GPIO pins would be nice. My desk is a hostile place for exposed pins. I guess some tape would work or a modified ribbon cable connector.

I used a C64 for ten years, back in the day, and will love this machine. The problem I have now is - where to put all this PiWare ? ? ? :?

I hope this is the last product for 2020 ! ! ! - - - I can not keep up - - -

This product could end up going mainstream, like sold at Walmart. Too bad there are no longer any computer stores, at least not in my area. They were somewhat common.

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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:29 pm

Puffergas wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:25 pm
A plastic plug for the exposed GPIO pins would be nice.
I've been looking for a plug cap for my Pi Zeros, can't believe no one sells them - yet!

sdivx
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:32 pm

recantha2 wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:05 pm
sdivx wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:37 pm
Saw this as thought nice! Then saw the HDMI. What?

So you see this device being used beyond the hobbyist , in business and education? Micro HDMI will be a non-starter for business. Virtually every corp office uses full size HDMI and all the monitors they purchase typically come with full size HDMI and/or VGA /Displayport.

So you would ask a corp and their users to buy 1-2 (for office) cables at a minimum. Even at say $3/pc in bulk that is hundreds to thousands of dollars for something they literally already have hundreds of.

Also no typical business is going to use a system with an exposed SD card for the OS. The security issues are numerous. Could have at least made it internal with access via a screw panel.

This is a cool product, but there is some serious flaws that will constrain its adoption.

Still want one though...
The market will decide, I guess!
If you think it can be done better, and you think there's a use case, be first to market and make a killing!
Yup guess they will.
as to making own solution. Market research would have to be done first. as others stated tooling is an expensive thing - see kickstarter , hehe . Wonder would financial business gravitate to this if you offer ability to hook say 3-4 monitors (can Pi even support that?) hmmm

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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:41 pm

Will the newer BCM2711 version be in newer batches of the regular Pi 4? Considering that the Pi 4 runs rather hot with the older version the better thermal performance might make it run noticeably cooler.

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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:58 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:13 am
Why are people asking questions that seem to be asking to use the Pi 400 in a way that its really not intended to be used? This is a desktop version of the Pi4. That is the target market. If you want power over GPIO, or OTG boot or the PMIC ADC why not use the Pi4? There are trade offs, pick the right tool for the job!
Actually.... The lack of a CSI connector *is* related to a target market, specifically, "distance learning" (what with the current pandemic). For my grandson's system for that, I set it up with the PiCamera V2. The Pi400 can't do that. So with three USB ports, one would get one for a pointer device (mouse, trackball, touchpad...), one for audio I/O dongle (since *no* Pi has audio input anyway), and the remaining one would have to be used for some variety of webcam. That eliminates any other USB devices unless one adds a hub.

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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:02 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:25 am
fanoush wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:23 am
Will it be available in black color too?
Eventually, according to an Eben interview somewhere. No idea when. It's needed for commercial usage - call centres etc.
Never mind call centers. Some of us are "cool eyed" and while the RPT/RPFs color scheme is good branding, red just isn't a color I particularly like in my environment. Something at the other end of the spectrum is much preferred--blues, greens or gray and black.

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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:05 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:52 am
What soc did the 8GB pi use, I though that had a bump.. but I could have that confused with all the other board alteration and hence replied on the comment page wrongly. (to Jeff I think).
The Pi4B8 got a slightly upgraded PCB to handle extra power for the larger DRAM module. SoC is the same.

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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:07 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:56 am
bensimmo wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:52 am
c0 is on the CM4 but no hoohar made of it?
It's only a chip spin - some extra power gating to improve thermals, I think a fix for the ethernet DMA not being able to access all the memory (so gets rid of need for bounce buffers - should be a bit faster). Nothing that changes functionality to the end user.
Might one reasonably presume that, as time goes on, we'll be seeing the C0 stepping on the main line Pi4Bs? I can't imagine there is much point in producing two different steppings of the same SoC...

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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:16 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:07 pm
jamesh wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:56 am
bensimmo wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:52 am
c0 is on the CM4 but no hoohar made of it?
It's only a chip spin - some extra power gating to improve thermals, I think a fix for the ethernet DMA not being able to access all the memory (so gets rid of need for bounce buffers - should be a bit faster). Nothing that changes functionality to the end user.
Might one reasonably presume that, as time goes on, we'll be seeing the C0 stepping on the main line Pi4Bs? I can't imagine there is much point in producing two different steppings of the same SoC...

One would hope so, but the BCM2837 has 2 revisions depending on SBC / CM, so not a given.

JGeerling has a CM4 with CO Stepping SoC:

https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2020/ ... and-review
Last edited by fruitoftheloom on Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The information is out there....you just have to let it in.

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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:18 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:56 am
Analog Audio and Composite Output not needed it is a "Desktop Computer" and considering how cheap TVs are Audio over HDMi is sufficient.
I don't fault anyone on omitting those. Of all the Pis I have that are in daily use, only two do anything with audio. One of those is a Pi2Bv1.1 that is my "alarm clock". The other is the system my grandson uses for "distance learning" and general use, and that one handles audio through a USB dongle because it needs audio input, and no Pi has that. None of my Pis use composite video. I don't *have* anything that composite could be connected to (no TV).
Anyone who feels RPT have made a substandard product because of this or that feature is or is not included, go out and design / market an alternative product and come back here when you have made a profit.
I think the RPT has made a really spiffy product. Since they've actually stated that one intended use is "distance learning" (what with the current pandemic), I think there is a mild case to be made that exposing a CSI connector would have been beneficial. Possibly on one end of the case? The absence doesn't rise to the level of "substandard" though. It's just something that removes the option of using a PiCamera for (school) videoconferencing....which--as noted--is an *intended* use case.

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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:24 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:58 pm
jamesh wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:13 am
Why are people asking questions that seem to be asking to use the Pi 400 in a way that its really not intended to be used? This is a desktop version of the Pi4. That is the target market. If you want power over GPIO, or OTG boot or the PMIC ADC why not use the Pi4? There are trade offs, pick the right tool for the job!
Actually.... The lack of a CSI connector *is* related to a target market, specifically, "distance learning" (what with the current pandemic). For my grandson's system for that, I set it up with the PiCamera V2. The Pi400 can't do that. So with three USB ports, one would get one for a pointer device (mouse, trackball, touchpad...), one for audio I/O dongle (since *no* Pi has audio input anyway), and the remaining one would have to be used for some variety of webcam. That eliminates any other USB devices unless one adds a hub.

Many webcams have microphones in them, I think all of mine do. I wasn't expecting to have them. So just shop around or buy a Bluetooth headset and microphone thing.
or stick it on a TV and that's the sound out done. I'm sure most people have a TV.

The PiCameras are restricted by the cable setup they use, USB doesn't have that problem.

Just think differently, more a normal PC setup, than a specific Pi setup.

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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:29 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:18 pm
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:56 am
Analog Audio and Composite Output not needed it is a "Desktop Computer" and considering how cheap TVs are Audio over HDMi is sufficient.
I don't fault anyone on omitting those. Of all the Pis I have that are in daily use, only two do anything with audio. One of those is a Pi2Bv1.1 that is my "alarm clock". The other is the system my grandson uses for "distance learning" and general use, and that one handles audio through a USB dongle because it needs audio input, and no Pi has that. None of my Pis use composite video. I don't *have* anything that composite could be connected to (no TV).
Anyone who feels RPT have made a substandard product because of this or that feature is or is not included, go out and design / market an alternative product and come back here when you have made a profit.
I think the RPT has made a really spiffy product. Since they've actually stated that one intended use is "distance learning" (what with the current pandemic), I think there is a mild case to be made that exposing a CSI connector would have been beneficial. Possibly on one end of the case? The absence doesn't rise to the level of "substandard" though. It's just something that removes the option of using a PiCamera for (school) videoconferencing....which--as noted--is an *intended* use case.

The only issue I can foresee by including a Camera Connector is it would need a long cable if the Camera was sat atop a TV / Screen.


I purchased a USB Cam with Mic and a USB Sound Card for under fiver via fleabay, not great quality but was adequate.
The information is out there....you just have to let it in.

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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:29 pm

Heater wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:48 am
I find that a rather odd statement. Do they still have ethernet cables trailing around classrooms, let alone PoE cabability? I have hardly seen an ethernet cable anywhere in home or office for many years now. And none of them with PoE, unless it was something I rigged up myself.
No idea about classrooms, but I avoid WiFi where ever possible. There is *one* Pi in the house that uses a wireless data link because there's no way to run a cable to it, and I had to use an external AP to get a decent signal, at that, so as far as that Pi is concerned, it's a wired connection. To that end, I upgraded by old 16-port 10/100 switch this year to a 24-port Gb/s one. I'm also slowly accumulating CAT-6 cables in a variety of lengths and using them when anything gets modified or upgraded. I don't use PoE, though.

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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:32 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:13 am
Why are people asking questions that seem to be asking to use the Pi 400 in a way that its really not intended to be used? This is a desktop version of the Pi4. That is the target market. If you want power over GPIO, or OTG boot or the PMIC ADC why not use the Pi4? There are trade offs, pick the right tool for the job!
As a desktop, it would be nice if the Pi 400 comes with a cover for its GPIO as to avoid possibility of accidentally short-circuiting the GPIO and damage the Pi while using it as a desktop.
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Never overclock your Pi.
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:35 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:18 pm
lb wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:44 am
It's called binning and it's hardly new. Every chip manufacturer does it!
Actually, it's more of a better clock gating in the C0 chip means we can power down more parts of the chip not ins use, which means less heat, which means more ability for higher clocks, which is boosted when combined with the high capacity heat spreader in the Pi 400.

Not sure we do binning.
I'd be astonished if TSMC doesn't, even if the bins are "Pass" and "Fail". So long as the P400 defaults to 1.8GHz and other Pi4 variants don't, it only makes sense to bin the chips by whether they can handle 1.8 or only 1.5 and boost the yield. It is my expectation that the BCM2837 chips get binned for the Pi3B/Pi3B+ vs the Pi2Bv1.2, give the different default clock speeds. (And, should my "Pi in the sky" of a BCM2711 Pi2B with a reduced--1GHz?--default clock ever happen, that would boost the yield some more.)

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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:39 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:18 pm
lb wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:44 am
It's called binning and it's hardly new. Every chip manufacturer does it!
Actually, it's more of a better clock gating in the C0 chip means we can power down more parts of the chip not ins use, which means less heat, which means more ability for higher clocks, which is boosted when combined with the high capacity heat spreader in the Pi 400.

Not sure we do binning.
Hm, interesting. So does that mean if Raspberry Pi Trading doesn't do any binning and the regular Raspberry Pi 4 ends up shipping with the new SoC revision, it's guaranteed to achieve 1.8 GHz? I suspected binning needs to happen, since regular Raspberry Pi 4 boards in the future could get the "low quality" C0 silicon while Raspberry Pi 400 would get "high quality" C0 dice.

Or maybe we'll just see a new Raspberry Pi 4B+? :)
Last edited by lb on Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:42 pm

pidd wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:29 pm
Puffergas wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:25 pm
A plastic plug for the exposed GPIO pins would be nice.
I've been looking for a plug cap for my Pi Zeros, can't believe no one sells them - yet!
Just use a bare 40 pin header with the cable grip squeezed on but without any cable inside.

But agree if this is aimed at kids or offices, something needs to be shipped with it to stop people doing sillies. The 5V and 3.3V supplies are on some of those pins.

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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:45 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:29 pm
Heater wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:48 am
I find that a rather odd statement. Do they still have ethernet cables trailing around classrooms, let alone PoE cabability? I have hardly seen an ethernet cable anywhere in home or office for many years now. And none of them with PoE, unless it was something I rigged up myself.
No idea about classrooms, but I avoid WiFi where ever possible. There is *one* Pi in the house that uses a wireless data link because there's no way to run a cable to it, and I had to use an external AP to get a decent signal, at that, so as far as that Pi is concerned, it's a wired connection. To that end, I upgraded by old 16-port 10/100 switch this year to a 24-port Gb/s one. I'm also slowly accumulating CAT-6 cables in a variety of lengths and using them when anything gets modified or upgraded. I don't use PoE, though.
No idea about in the US, but in the UK many schools are Ethernet only to stop everybody using the school WiFi to download stuff to their phones. WiFi passwords soon get discovered and passed around.

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