alphanumeric
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F10 Power On not reliable?

Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:21 am

More often than not, pressing F10 on my Pi 400 just gets me a short flash of the power LED and that's it? Press it a second time and it boots up normally. I also have an issue where Fn F10 doesn't do a shutdown first time tried. I have to do Fn F10, Fn F10. Or F10 then Fn F10.
Official Power Supply, I've tried two. Could this be a keyboard issue? My caps lock key also doesn't work.

cleverca22
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Re: F10 Power On not reliable?

Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:22 am

for shutdown, you must hold fn+f10 for just the right amount of time

if too short, it does absolutely nothing
if too long, it hard-cuts power

and it only reacts upon release, so you dont know if you held it long enough, until after you have already let go

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AkulaMD
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Re: F10 Power On not reliable?

Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:00 am

cleverca22 wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:22 am
for shutdown, you must hold fn+f10 for just the right amount of time

if too short, it does absolutely nothing
if too long, it hard-cuts power

and it only reacts upon release, so you dont know if you held it long enough, until after you have already let go
Perhaps RPT should make it more definitive for the end users.
Raspberry Pi OS (32-bit) with desktop and recommended software
Raspberry Pi 4 Model B 8GB at stock speed (never overclock)

Never overclock your Pi.
Encourage optimization instead.

thradtke
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Re: F10 Power On not reliable?

Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:14 am

alphanumeric wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:21 am
I also have an issue where Fn F10 doesn't do a shutdown first time tried. I have to do Fn F10, Fn F10. Or F10 then Fn F10.
Official Power Supply, I've tried two. Could this be a keyboard issue? My caps lock key also doesn't work.
No, those are seperated, well known problems. The shutdown procedure requires repeating the sequence most of the time (sometimes you even need a triple). Keyboard problems are also common.

No solutions thus far.
Rocket Scientist.

alphanumeric
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Re: F10 Power On not reliable?

Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:40 am

I've already posted my Fn F10 issue in another thread. Only mentioned it again in case it may be related to my F10 power up issue.
I can press and hold Fn F10 for as long as I want, (the first time) and nothing happens. No hard power down, nothing.
Do it the second time and it works as advertised. A 1 sec or so press gets me a shutdown. Hold it down and it kills power.
In my case the first press of F10 is ignored, its as if I only pressed Fn. If I do F10, Fn F10 I can shutdown.
Fn F10 never works first time pressed.

My F10 to boot up seems to be hit or miss? Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't? When it doesn't the Power Led does one blink.
I'm thinking this is a firmware issue, but not the firmware that's updated by apt?

thradtke
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Re: F10 Power On not reliable?

Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:50 am

alphanumeric wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:40 am
My F10 to boot up seems to be hit or miss? Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't?
That does always work for me.

I fear the keyboard firmware is seperated and won't see any updates, else there would have been at least a debouncing fix by now.
Rocket Scientist.

alphanumeric
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Re: F10 Power On not reliable?

Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:25 am

I manually updated the Pi 400's firmware, and it made no difference. :(

cleverca22
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Re: F10 Power On not reliable?

Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:06 am

alphanumeric wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:25 am
I manually updated the Pi 400's firmware, and it made no difference. :(
because its the holtek firmware that decides how the button works, and there is no publicly known way to update that firmware

thradtke
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Re: F10 Power On not reliable?

Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:50 am

The positive side of this: It's very difficult to shutdown the computer accidentally. Maybe this was even intended?
Rocket Scientist.

alphanumeric
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Re: F10 Power On not reliable?

Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:55 am

It's two keys, Fn + F10 so you can't accidentally shutdown by pressing just F10. It worked fine on my first Pi 400. That one had a defective keyboard and was replaced with this one. Which is even worse keyboard wise. Doubt I'll ever buy another one.

thradtke
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Re: F10 Power On not reliable?

Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:50 pm

alphanumeric wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:55 am
It worked fine on my first Pi 400.
Wow. I guess the Holtek µC comes from the keyboard manufacturer? What does it? Reading matrix and sending HID-codes?
Rocket Scientist.

alphanumeric
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Re: F10 Power On not reliable?

Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:39 pm

thradtke wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:50 pm
alphanumeric wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:55 am
It worked fine on my first Pi 400.
Wow. I guess the Holtek µC comes from the keyboard manufacturer? What does it? Reading matrix and sending HID-codes?
That I don't know? The chip / controller for the keyboard is on the main board, and eventually feeds into the onboard USB controller / Hub. That's why there is only one USB 2 port on the back, the second one is given up for the keyboard.

cleverca22
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Re: F10 Power On not reliable?

Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:14 am

thradtke wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:50 pm
alphanumeric wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:55 am
It worked fine on my first Pi 400.
Wow. I guess the Holtek µC comes from the keyboard manufacturer? What does it? Reading matrix and sending HID-codes?
it appears to handle ~4 main jobs

1: it scans the keyboard matrix and generates the HID codes
2: if fn+f10 is held for just the right amount of time, it sends an HID code for the power button, upon release
3: if fn+f10 is held too long, i suspect it activates a gpio pin, which the bcm2711 firmware will then react to, and hard-cut power, causing an improper shutdown
4: to boot back up, it seems to only need f10, and somehow talks to the PMIC chip, to turn things back on

you can observe 1/2 by just running `evtest` in a terminal, but you may need `evtest --grab` to stop the power key from doing anything, to let you actually observe it

3 definitely comes from start4.elf, because before loading something from an sd card, its not capable of turning itself off


all of that implies that the firmware was customized to suit the needs of the pi400

alphanumeric
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Re: F10 Power On not reliable?

Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:32 am

Just a FYI post. On the official Pi Keyboard, F10 is scroll lock. And the Power Led is a scroll lock indicator. Mechanically it's the same keyboard as in the Pi 400, just the key labeling is changed. You can even swap the top part, the keyboard part into a Pi 400. F10 will be labeled incorrectly but F10 power on, Fn F10 shutdown, (if it worked before ;) ) will work with the swapped keyboard. A few here on the forums have done it to get their preferred language layout. Too impatient to wait for an official release of their language version.

cleverca22
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Re: F10 Power On not reliable?

Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:40 am

alphanumeric wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:32 am
Mechanically it's the same keyboard as in the Pi 400, just the key labeling is changed. You can even swap the top part, the keyboard part into a Pi 400.
i think the firmware on the holtek chip is also different, but thats on the main board, so you cant really swap it

https://al.zerostem.io/~al/dzi/xray.html has pretty good images of the pi keyboard, so you can compare that to the pi400 board

alphanumeric
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Re: F10 Power On not reliable?

Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:55 am

It's been done, the light pipes also have to be swapper over. Electronically, the actual keyboard and ribbon cable are identical between the Pi 400 keyboard and the Official keyboard. The only real difference is the labeling of the F10 key and power LED. What the ribbon cable connects too is obviously different electronically. I'd think its the same chip, just different firmware for the Pi 400.

alphanumeric
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Re: F10 Power On not reliable?

Wed Jun 23, 2021 4:30 pm

What ever is going on with my Pi 400 is getting progressivly worse. I just had to press F10 four times before it would boot up. :(

alphanumeric
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Re: F10 Power On not reliable?

Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:32 pm

Ok, I have no idea what this means but?
If I shut down from the Menu Bar, no pressing Fn F10.
The first press of F10 gets me one quick flash on the power LED but no boot up.
A second press gets me nothing? The power LED stays off and no boot up.
On the third press it boots up.

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