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Pulsar33
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STICKY: New Ubuntu sub-forum

Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:23 pm

Good evening, despite the fact that the "Ubuntu 19.10 (Eoan Ermine) released" subject has been closed,

I will not offend Jamesh by counting the off-topic posts he committed as well as a few others in the subject dedicated to Ubuntu, despite several reminders from users who wanted to keep talking about Ubuntu. This is not a reason to close this subject under the pretext that he and some others have drifted into a 32/64-bit debate. It is not our doing and we are the ones who are being robbed.

People who buy an RPi4 have the right to want to install the OS of their choice. And as it is not necessarily simple, they also have the right to discuss it here, because this forum is a Raspberry Pi forum, not a Raspbian forum.

It is incomprehensible that in the Other sub-forum, there is no Ubuntu and/or Mint sub-forum when these OSs represent a huge majority of the Linux OSs installed, and this for years. Many new users recently buy the RPi4 and this SBC is a great success. These new users have nothing to do with your old decisions about which OS you support or not. They don't even ask your support for this OS, they only want to discuss HERE of what concern the Raspberry Pi. That's all.

This evening, there are already 3 new subjects about Ubuntu in this section. If you don't create a sub-forum for Ubuntu, you will be invaded by topics about Ubuntu in all sub-forums, because it is an obvious need. Think to it ...

Regards
Pulsar33
Last edited by Pulsar33 on Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Claim for an Ubuntu sub-forum

Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:25 pm

+100

This has puzzled me for some time. There's a bunch of stale forums and nothing for Ubuntu which appears to be trying to support running on a Raspberry.
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Re: Claim for an Ubuntu sub-forum

Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:32 pm

+1000

Ubuntu is different enough from Debian I think it warrants a sub-forum.

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Re: Claim for an Ubuntu sub-forum

Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:03 pm

Once again, people wanting us to provide a support structure for someone else's distro, someone else who has loads of cash to provide their own support forum, and, actually do!

Not only that, but having a pop at a mod at the same time! Risky business, that. I suggest not doing it, ever again.


So it will come as quite the surprise when I write that I will look in to it. Perhaps I also ought to ask Canonical to pay for some of our bandwidth costs.

By the way, the best and most robust OS is Raspbian. You should use it!
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Re: Claim for an Ubuntu sub-forum

Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:18 pm

people just ask ubuntu sub-forum not ask [email protected] help.
although, ubuntu-OS for Pi is dead end.

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Re: Claim for an Ubuntu sub-forum

Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:35 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:03 pm
Not only that, but having a pop at a mod at the same time! Risky business, that. I suggest not doing it, ever again.
Sorry but English isn't my mother language. I don't understand this sentence.

However, I think that I write enough clearly in English for you to understand what I said in my first post above and I suggest you to read it again.
We don't ask your support but only the right to discuss HERE about a software that is able to run on YOUR board.

I've read somewhere that you were at the third place in the world for CPU sales.
This is a very nice success for you and many of us are very happy to use this magical hardware.
However, this gives you responsibilities because this board addresses the Linux Open World !
YOU have to face it and sorry but with so many boards sold, you certainly can.
If you are so few to develop and support your board, it's time to ask your financial managers to recruit engineers.
If you have bandwidth problems, it's time to upgrade your servers as MANY, MANY new users are coming.
Denying this to your customers is a suicidal approach.

Sorry but this is the truth.
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Re: Claim for an Ubuntu sub-forum

Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:45 pm

Pulsar33 wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:35 pm
Sorry but English isn't my mother language. I don't understand this sentence.
The tone of your posts is very aggressive with the emphasis on YOU/YOUR etc... You specifically call out jamesh for writing off-topic posts in Ubuntu threads. It isn't surprising that your suggestion wasn't taken very well.

You're a guest on somebody elses forum. Demanding a subforum because you claim it is your right to discuss it here is not how you convince the forum administrators. Be polite with your requests.

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Re: Claim for an Ubuntu sub-forum

Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:54 pm

Thank you for explanation, but the exact translation of pop isn't clear for me

I was the first to be attacked in the subject that Jamesh closed and I more than once kindly asked to return to the subject which was Ubuntu, while Jamesh and some others were drifting. That is why, after having experienced the closure of the subject as an aggression to which I could not respond, I opened this new subject. And obviously, there are other people who feel the same way I do.

Best regards
Pulsar33

PS : emphasis is just a way to highlight important things as it seems that some sentences don't reach the reader. If emphasis exists, it's to be used.
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Re: Claim for an Ubuntu sub-forum

Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:59 pm

jamesh wrote:I will look in to it.
Did you guys miss this or what?
Pulsar33 wrote:Sorry but this is the truth my personal opinion.
Fixed that for you. From day one there have been heralds of doom on this forum trying to dictate how to run Raspberry Pi and what they're entitled to. None of them have been right yet, but maybe you're the one. Unfortunately, we already have a CEO to make those decisions.

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Re: Claim for an Ubuntu sub-forum

Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:05 am

Thank you for the answer ShiftPlusOne, and sorry if I've not understood this :

I will look in to it.

I didn't understand into what Jamesh was supposed to look in after the other sentence I didn't understand.
Sorry if this made a confusion

Best regards
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Re: Claim for an Ubuntu sub-forum

Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:38 am

Pulsar33 wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:35 pm
jamesh wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:03 pm
Not only that, but having a pop at a mod at the same time! Risky business, that. I suggest not doing it, ever again.
Sorry but English isn't my mother language. I don't understand this sentence.
have a pop at = To attack or start a fight with something or someone.
Thank you for the answer ShiftPlusOne, and sorry if I've not understood this :

I will look in to it.
meaning, "I will consider it".

In the idiomatic scale between "We'll see" (= never gonna happen, nope nope nope) to "Consider it done" (= I will very likely do this), "I will look in to it" tends to be slightly on the negative side. It's almost definitely not James's highest priority, and it will likely depend on other people's opinion/response. Don't expect anything tomorrow.

Personally, I think the underused 'raspberrypi' tag in Ask Ubuntu is where these questions about Ubuntu should go. Canonical is rolling in cash. Raspberry Pi have made the decision to support Raspbian with their limited resources. It is, as they say, what it is.
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Re: Claim for an Ubuntu sub-forum

Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:01 am

Many thanks scruss for this detailed definitions and meanings. It's very much clear like this and I've to say that it wasn't a personal attack, but just a factual reminder of what happened in the subject that was closed.

Moreover, since august, I've bought 2x RPi4 with PSU, one DVB TV pHAT, 2x cases, some other stuff, and 4x 32Gb SDcards. I made experiments with several OS and Desktop and have discussion with friends and family about what works or not. This is why I don't feel involved in each OS I tried on this board, but I feel involved in this board development and success. The result is that I tend to discuss of all this on the RPi board forum, which is the most logical and simple (and justified in my opinion).

Good night to all
Pulsar33
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Re: Claim for an Ubuntu sub-forum

Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:31 am

I think there should now be a Ubuntu forum place.
For some reason people still like Ubuntu, but I prefer Mint :D
It could be a long time before mainstream bother to have their own arm32/64 forum places.
Gentoo has one :D

Particular OS's on Pi's are different enough from mainstream that here would be a good place to start.
OS's that run on Pi's, the more the merrier.

But RPF/RPT should not feel the need to support them and no one should expect that support.
Just a place for people to support each other without waiting for mainstream to catch up, if they even bother.

One thing I have noticed is other Distributions will have a champion or two with considerable skills.
They can help solve/test bug fixes etc that might be Pi/kernel related and not OS related.
These champions might even be ahead of RPT in some areas and serve as trail blazers.

Lumping everything else into "other" is ok if there was a Ubuntu sub forum.
Die hards will go to that particualr OS's forums anyway, eventually?
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Re: Claim for an Ubuntu sub-forum

Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:07 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:31 am
I think there should now be a Ubuntu forum place.
For some reason people still like Ubuntu, but I prefer Mint :D
It could be a long time before mainstream bother to have their own arm32/64 forum places.
Gentoo has one :D

Particular OS's on Pi's are different enough from mainstream that here would be a good place to start.
OS's that run on Pi's, the more the merrier.

But RPF/RPT should not feel the need to support them and no one should expect that support.
Just a place for people to support each other without waiting for mainstream to catch up, if they even bother.

One thing I have noticed is other Distributions will have a champion or two with considerable skills.
They can help solve/test bug fixes etc that might be Pi/kernel related and not OS related.
These champions might even be ahead of RPT in some areas and serve as trail blazers.

Lumping everything else into "other" is ok if there was a Ubuntu sub forum.
Die hards will go to that particualr OS's forums anyway, eventually?

Whether or not we have a Ubuntu Forum is one I am not going into.....

...but IF it was created it would need sub forums, as there are several flavours of Ubuntu.


Even Ubuntu themselves have at least two main Raspberry Pi Web Pages.

Then there is Ubuntu-Mate and Ubuntu flavor maker and no doubt others.


It needs Canonical to pull all the Raspberry Pi related material together, once that is done, then a General Ubuntu Forum could be created here.


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Re: Claim for an Ubuntu sub-forum

Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:16 am

Does it really, as soon as someone's post starts to need something special you can politely tell them where in the Canonical forums they should take their questions. Canonical can look after their own stuff.

The illogical problem that James & ShiftPlusOne should consider is why did Gentoo, Plano & Puppy win and Ubuntu lost when the forums were initially created and at the last reshuffle. They should also consider why Ubuntu should or shouldn't deserve slightly better focus on here.

Plan 9 and Puppy can go, those two are dead on Raspberries.
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Re: Claim for an Ubuntu sub-forum

Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:10 am

DougieLawson wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:16 am
Does it really, as soon as someone's post starts to need something special you can politely tell them where in the Canonical forums they should take their questions. Canonical can look after their own stuff.

The illogical problem that James & ShiftPlusOne should consider is why did Gentoo, Plano & Puppy win and Ubuntu lost when the forums were initially created and at the last reshuffle. They should also consider why Ubuntu should or shouldn't deserve slightly better focus on here.

Plan 9 and Puppy can go, those two are dead on Raspberries.
For the reasons outlined; canonical have their own well funded forums, those other distros don't. We were doing those other ones a favour. Still not convinced we should be doing well funded distros a favour, but have passed on the request.

Don't expect multiple Ubuntu sub forums though.
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Re: Claim for an Ubuntu sub-forum

Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:21 am

Perhaps a sticky to the real Ubuntu forum should be the first thing?
If real support was on there would a Pi forum be needed?

I see a post about a "new" Pi OS, I go there, spend ages finding the image and it does not work.
Could have saved some trouble if someone just said on the Pi forum, "not working yet".

But real support generally needs champians
If Ubuntu does not get at least one then it probably will be a second rate supported Pi OS.
A near thankless role requiring endless patience and considerable knowledge and skills.

Have a Ubuntu section, if nothing happens it is not RPF/RPT's fault.
And if a champian appears then it will be the first contact point?
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Re: Claim for an Ubuntu sub-forum

Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:10 am

DougieLawson wrote: The illogical problem that James & ShiftPlusOne should consider is why did Gentoo, Plano & Puppy win and Ubuntu lost when the forums were initially created and at the last reshuffle.
I haven't actually commented on whether we should have an Ubuntu forum. There are some reasons it may be a bad idea, but I still think we should have one. I was just surprised by how rude some people were. If James is willing to take time out of his day to look into it despite his own disagreement, acting rude and entitled is just working against your own cause.

I have some suspicion that it would contain a lot of cargo cult solutions, answers from people who don't have the answers and that bug reports won't reach the developers.

As far as I know, we only have one regular user who's also a Canonical employee working on pi support for Ubuntu and that's not his primary role there. I think it would better serve the users to seek support where developers of the operating system can be found. It would also help the developers get feedback and address issues users are having directly.

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Re: Claim for an Ubuntu sub-forum

Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:19 am

ShiftPlusOne wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:10 am
DougieLawson wrote: The illogical problem that James & ShiftPlusOne should consider is why did Gentoo, Plano & Puppy win and Ubuntu lost when the forums were initially created and at the last reshuffle.
I haven't actually commented on whether we should have an Ubuntu forum. There are some reasons it may be a bad idea, but I still think we should have one. I was just surprised by how rude some people were. If James is willing to take time out of his day to look into it despite his own disagreement, acting rude and entitled is just working against your own cause.

I have some suspicion that it would contain a lot of cargo cult solutions, answers from people who don't have the answers and that bug reports won't reach the developers.

As far as I know, we only have one regular user who's also a Canonical employee working on pi support for Ubuntu and that's not his primary role there. I think it would better serve the users to seek support where developers of the operating system can be found. It would also help the developers get feedback and address issues users are having directly.
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Re: Claim for an Ubuntu sub-forum

Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:00 pm

I think it's a good idea to have an own sub-forum in the "other OS" section for Ubuntu related topics, here on this highly frequented Raspberry Pi Foundation forum. Then Ubuntu things will probably be discussed calmer.

I also agree with Dougie's arguments. (And I love the Mame emulator on the Pi4 from the apt-get package, which finally emulates an Amstrad CPC 100% out of the box.)
jamesh wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:03 pm
So it will come as quite the surprise when I write that I will look in to it.
jamesh wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:10 am
We were doing those other ones a favour. Still not convinced we should be doing well funded distros a favour, but have passed on the request.
ShiftPlusOne wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:10 am
I haven't actually commented on whether we should have an Ubuntu forum. There are some reasons it may be a bad idea, but I still think we should have one.
Thank you both moderators for passing on the suggestion.
jamesh wrote:By the way, the best and most robust OS is Raspbian. You should use it!
That's true indeed.
But like the liberal Prussian king said: "Each to his own." („Jedem Tierchen sein Pläsierchen.“)

P.S. On our Pi's I'm using Raspbian, and on our x86-boxes I use Ubuntu. I like both a lot.
Last edited by Fidelius on Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Claim for an Ubuntu sub-forum

Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:14 pm

Fidelius wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:00 pm
I think it's a good idea to have an own sub-forum in the "other OS" section for Ubuntu related topics, here on this highly frequented Raspberry Pi Foundation forum. Then Ubuntu things will probably be discussed calmer.

I also agree with Dougie's arguments. (And I love the Mame emulator on the Pi4 from the apt-get package, which finally emulates an Amstrad CPC 100% out of the box.)
jamesh wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:03 pm
So it will come as quite the surprise when I write that I will look in to it.
jamesh wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:10 am
We were doing those other ones a favour. Still not convinced we should be doing well funded distros a favour, but have passed on the request.
ShiftPlusOne wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:10 am
I haven't actually commented on whether we should have an Ubuntu forum. There are some reasons it may be a bad idea, but I still think we should have one.
Thank you both moderators for passing on the suggestion.
jamesh wrote:By the way, the best and most robust OS is Raspbian. You should use it!
That's true indeed.
But as the liberalist saying goes: "Each to his own."

P.S. On our Pi's I'm using Raspbian, and on our x86-boxes I use Ubuntu. I like both a lot.

What flavor of Ubuntu do you need a forum for ??
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Re: Claim for an Ubuntu sub-forum

Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:25 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:14 pm
What flavor of Ubuntu do you need a forum for ??
Well, I don't need one, since on the Pi I use Raspbian only.

However I like the idea that those Pi users who (try to) use Ubuntu have their own "other OS" Ubuntu forum here, where they can discuss their experiences. And out of interest I would read there, too, at least occasionally.

One Ubuntu forum would be enough, since all the Ubuntu flavours use the very same Ubuntu apt repository. For example to enable an Ubuntu installation with my preferred XFCE aka Xubuntu desktop, the following does the trick: sudo apt install xubuntu-desktop

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Re: Claim for an Ubuntu sub-forum

Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:42 pm

Fidelius wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:25 pm
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:14 pm
What flavor of Ubuntu do you need a forum for ??
Well, I don't need one, since on the Pi I use Raspbian only.

However I like the idea that those Pi users who (try to) use Ubuntu have their own "other OS" Ubuntu forum here, where they can discuss their experiences. And out of interest I would read there, too, at least occasionally.

One Ubuntu forum would be enough, since all the Ubuntu flavours use the very same Ubuntu apt repository. For example to enable an Ubuntu installation with my preferred XFCE aka Xubuntu desktop, the following does the trick: sudo apt install xubuntu-desktop

Then where does Ubuntu Core get discussed ??

Will say again Canonical need to sort out their Raspberry Pi related pages, that is more of a priority than argueing the toss about whether or not this Board has a dedicated section.
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Re: Claim for an Ubuntu sub-forum

Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:02 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:42 pm
Then where does Ubuntu Core get discussed ?
All things related to Ubuntu on the Pi could be discussed in the one Ubuntu sub-forum in the "other OS" section. No need to complicate matters.

By now I've said what I wanted to say, it's just suggestions anyway, since the decision will be made elsewhere. Thanks to all who maintain these fine Pi forums.

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Re: Claim for an Ubuntu sub-forum

Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:53 pm

perhaps just a 'forum' that is actually a link to the one given above https://askubuntu.com/questions/tagged/raspberrypi
I think Phpbb can do that (could do the same to WinIOT, but they probably support its setup)

Maybe Canonical could support a section AND actually provide support in there ?
https://www.raspberrypi.org/about/supporters/

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