Yeahthisisausername
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:04 am
Location: Norway

X11 vs Wayland - Wow!

Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:15 am

So I just updated Ubuntu to 21.04 on my RPi 4 (4GB) yesterday, and I'm shocked at how smooth and snappy it is now after the Wayland migration. Animations would stutter and freeze, and the system in general would feel sluggish on X11, while now it's so weirdly smooth with Wayland, that I'm kinda still in shock at how well it's all running. It doesn't make sense that a credit card sized PC can run 64-bit Ubuntu this well. Couple it with recently released Firefox 89 which seems to have gotten a performance boost, and I'm officially in heaven. This thing is now officially a (secondary) desktop computer.

It doesn't hurt that I'm also running it all from an SSD, but everything else is stock. Monitor is also set to 75Hz, which also helps a little.

Anyhow, how's your personal experience with Wayland? If you've tried it before, but not recently, I recommend you all to do so, especially if you're still on Ubuntu 20.10.

User avatar
pasman1
Posts: 203
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:01 pm
Location: Poland

Re: X11 vs Wayland - Wow!

Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:24 am

Wayland is cool but only supported by GNOME, KDE and sway
Pi4 RaspbOS 64+LXQT, linux 5.10.52-v8

Yeahthisisausername
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:04 am
Location: Norway

Re: X11 vs Wayland - Wow!

Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:20 am

Yeah, not the biggest fan of Gnome myself, due to how resource heavy it is on weaker hardware, and not really a fan of the design language, so I usually go for a minimal install with Openbox. However, I'd say that it's worth trying out now at least, especially for people who mainly use their RPi as a desktop computer. It's shockingly snappy, but be sure to run it from an SSD or else you'll have a bad time! :lol:


User avatar
manu2007
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:13 pm

Re: X11 vs Wayland - Wow!

Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:08 pm

Yeahthisisausername wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:15 am
...I recommend you all to do so, especially if you're still on Ubuntu 20.10.
How do you install / configure it?

https://ubuntu.com/download/raspberry-pi

It seems the Desktop image is for Raspberry Pi 400 and Raspberry Pi CM4, not RPi 4.

I assume I should install Ubuntu server and then install the desktop, I tried with the Desktop image anyway, it worked but it uses X11, not Wayland, so I'm missing some configuration, or I really need to Install Ubuntu server first.

fruitoftheloom
Posts: 27088
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:40 pm

Re: X11 vs Wayland - Wow!

Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:19 pm

manu2007 wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:08 pm
Yeahthisisausername wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:15 am
...I recommend you all to do so, especially if you're still on Ubuntu 20.10.
How do you install / configure it?

https://ubuntu.com/download/raspberry-pi

It seems the Desktop image is for Raspberry Pi 400 and Raspberry Pi CM4, not RPi 4.

I assume I should install Ubuntu server and then install the desktop, I tried with the Desktop image anyway, it worked but it uses X11, not Wayland, so I'm missing some configuration, or I really need to Install Ubuntu server first.

If it works on the 400 it will work with the 4B, the only caveat is you will need 4GB or 8GB memory versions, therefore Ubuntu are eering on side of caution, because users do not read anything and would try to install on 1GB & 2GB memory versions.
I am a volunteer, take what I advise as advice not the utopian holy grail.

User avatar
manu2007
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:13 pm

Re: X11 vs Wayland - Wow!

Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:24 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:19 pm
If it works on the 400 it will work with the 4B, the only caveat is you will need 4GB or 8GB memory versions, therefore Ubuntu are eering on side of caution, because users do not read anything and would try to install on 1GB & 2GB memory versions.
I see, I have 4GB version so that's why it worked. Thank you. :-P

User avatar
scruss
Posts: 4187
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:25 pm
Location: Toronto, ON
Contact: Website

Re: X11 vs Wayland - Wow!

Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:59 pm

Wayland handles the clipboard differently from X11, so some programs might not copy and paste as expected. Firefox is particularly bad for this.

Wayland also removes X11's client-server concept (usually for the better), but you might find that remote desktops don't work the way you're used to.
‘Remember the Golden Rule of Selling: “Do not resort to violence.”’ — McGlashan.
Pronouns: he/him

Yeahthisisausername
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:04 am
Location: Norway

Re: X11 vs Wayland - Wow!

Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:18 pm

manu2007 wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:08 pm
Yeahthisisausername wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:15 am
...I recommend you all to do so, especially if you're still on Ubuntu 20.10.
How do you install / configure it?

https://ubuntu.com/download/raspberry-pi

It seems the Desktop image is for Raspberry Pi 400 and Raspberry Pi CM4, not RPi 4.

I assume I should install Ubuntu server and then install the desktop, I tried with the Desktop image anyway, it worked but it uses X11, not Wayland, so I'm missing some configuration, or I really need to Install Ubuntu server first.
You're on the correct page. You need to download Ubuntu Desktop 21.04. I don't know how well Ubuntu 64-bit runs from an SD card, but I recommend you to get an SSD if you haven't yet. I'm using a cheap $20, 120GB SSD, and this SATA adapter: https://shop.pimoroni.com/products/sata ... sb-adapter

It's then plug-and-play. Use Pi Imager, write the OS to the SSD, plug it to the Pi, and voila! Done. No need to configure anything.

Giga_Pi
Posts: 224
Joined: Mon May 20, 2019 9:48 am

Re: X11 vs Wayland - Wow!

Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:25 pm

Whilst this is certainly not the same...

Wayland does suck on Raspberry Pi OS with GNOME.

Moving over to X11 makes it run much faster. Its quite noticable!

This said, it will probably be out of date, so optimisations and the like won't yet have been implemented, so maybe not a fair comparison?

Anyway, I will say that I have found that on my Desktop PC, a barely ever noticed using wayland until an application broke (OBS), so it's caught up mostly in performance on a "normal" PC.
GNOME for Pi

A project to get the popular GNOME desktop to run on Raspberry Pi OS.

Guide here: https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=276512

Yeahthisisausername
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:04 am
Location: Norway

Re: X11 vs Wayland - Wow!

Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:38 pm

Giga_Pi wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:25 pm
Whilst this is certainly not the same...

Wayland does suck on Raspberry Pi OS with GNOME.

Moving over to X11 makes it run much faster. Its quite noticable!

This said, it will probably be out of date, so optimisations and the like won't yet have been implemented, so maybe not a fair comparison?

Anyway, I will say that I have found that on my Desktop PC, a barely ever noticed using wayland until an application broke (OBS), so it's caught up mostly in performance on a "normal" PC.
Yeah, Wayland has been buggy for a long time, but 21.04 changes that. It's actually stable, and it's super smooth on Ubuntu Desktop 64 for Raspberry Pi. You know how everything just lags when there are ANY animations in Gnome? Like when you open the app launcher? It's silky smooth now. Lag, gone. Everything is silky smooth with zero lag. I'm not joking! I'll see if I manage to upload a short (and maybe watchable) video here of it in about 30 minutes.

Yeahthisisausername
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:04 am
Location: Norway

Re: X11 vs Wayland - Wow!

Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:52 pm

Well, here it is. Witness the smoothness and snappiness of Ubuntu, on a credit card sized computer with 4 GB of RAM. Yesterday it was crap, and ran like expected, today it's a new machine. I actually enjoy using it now. Watch in 1080p 60p for best result.

https://youtu.be/Jiu4XvVDkp4

User avatar
manu2007
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:13 pm

Re: X11 vs Wayland - Wow!

Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:43 am

The desktop is very smooth and there's no tearing anymore, on the other hand,
video playback is not very smooth, both in mpv and Firefox.

This test shows very choppy playback even in 480p :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuXsupMuik4

Also Firefox needs that fix :

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+sour ... ug/1930982
Set gfx.webrender.force-disabled to True
Apparently there's some problems with mpv and wayland :

https://github.com/mpv-player/mpv/wiki/ ... yz_problem

They say that ...
RPI userland is a mess
:mrgreen:

User avatar
Gavinmc42
Posts: 5873
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:31 am

Re: X11 vs Wayland - Wow!

Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:35 am

This is nice to know.
Might give it a try, if I get another SSD.
Wonder how it goes on a NVMe on a CM4?

The last time I tried Wayland on a Pi I was unimpressed.

I am hanging out for a Vulkan rendered Desktop.
ChamferWM uses Vulkan but it is still X11.
I'm dancing on Rainbows.
Raspberries are not Apples or Oranges

User avatar
Gavinmc42
Posts: 5873
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:31 am

Re: X11 vs Wayland - Wow!

Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:46 am

Hey, look what I found, it also has the only game I install on all my computers ;)
Worth watching, don't NEED Wine, but dual monitors is compulsory.
https://9to5linux.com/collaboras-waylan ... or-support

Eben did say 2021 is mostly a software year, its nearly half over.

Pi's have limited hardware on which Vulkan/Wayland should get better performance.
I'm dancing on Rainbows.
Raspberries are not Apples or Oranges

Yeahthisisausername
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:04 am
Location: Norway

Re: X11 vs Wayland - Wow!

Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:15 pm

manu2007 wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:43 am
The desktop is very smooth and there's no tearing anymore, on the other hand,
video playback is not very smooth, both in mpv and Firefox.
Yup! Video playback is broken on Firefox 89. Local videos play nicely though, so it's reassuring that it's not a system wide bug.

kazin08
Posts: 50
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:08 pm

Re: X11 vs Wayland - Wow!

Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:49 am

Is there a way to use X11 on ubuntu 21.04? because I'm always using remote connection to use my pi, and with wayland the experience is really bad and I can't use V3D, only the software renderer :(

User avatar
kerry_s
Posts: 2189
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:14 pm

Re: X11 vs Wayland - Wow!

Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:11 am

kazin08 wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:49 am
Is there a way to use X11 on ubuntu 21.04? because I'm always using remote connection to use my pi, and with wayland the experience is really bad and I can't use V3D, only the software renderer :(
logout & select your user, an icon will show up in the bottom right corner, select gnome xorg

thatchunkylad198966
Posts: 576
Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:21 am
Location: UK, Birmingham

Re: X11 vs Wayland - Wow!

Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:21 am

I'll wait until it's ported to more DE's.
Refuse to use Sway and GNOME is too heavy on RAM.
[NEW] Ubuntu - CM4/RPi4B custom image(s)! XFCE4, LXQt, i3-WM, WireGuard, Samba, Kodi, Latest MESA graphics drivers!

Code: Select all

https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=131&t=314419

User avatar
manu2007
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:13 pm

Re: X11 vs Wayland - Wow!

Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:48 am

I had performance regression with Manjaro / Sway / Firefox 89 ,
X11 gives better results, still Raspbian 64 bit with Firefox ESR is the best performance I had so far.

User avatar
kerry_s
Posts: 2189
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:14 pm

Re: X11 vs Wayland - Wow!

Mon Jul 12, 2021 11:40 am

manu2007 wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:48 am
I had performance regression with Manjaro / Sway / Firefox 89 ,
X11 gives better results, still Raspbian 64 bit with Firefox ESR is the best performance I had so far.
it's cause manjaro uses the rpi kernels & they work on x11 issues, as it's what raspberry uses.
wayland & plasma is pretty much untested.

you can use i3-wm to add tiling to raspberry.
just comment out the i3 statusbar & use lxpanel already there.
i comment out most of the settings in i3/config, it's up to you what you want to use.
i just wanted basic tiling.

forgot you need to comment out the desktop in autostart.
Attachments
2021-07-12-015349_1920x1080_scrot.png
2021-07-12-015349_1920x1080_scrot.png (188.74 KiB) Viewed 624 times
2021-07-12-013431_1920x1080_scrot.png
2021-07-12-013431_1920x1080_scrot.png (238.04 KiB) Viewed 636 times
Last edited by kerry_s on Mon Jul 12, 2021 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
manu2007
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:13 pm

Re: X11 vs Wayland - Wow!

Mon Jul 12, 2021 11:53 am

kerry_s wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 11:40 am
you can use i3-wm to add tiling to raspberry.
I tried i3, it gives better performance than Sway / Wayland, but Firefox 89 gives worst performance than Firefox ESR. The CPU usage is higher playing the same video. :-P

User avatar
kerry_s
Posts: 2189
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:14 pm

Re: X11 vs Wayland - Wow!

Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:06 pm

manu2007 wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 11:53 am
kerry_s wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 11:40 am
you can use i3-wm to add tiling to raspberry.
I tried i3, it gives better performance than Sway / Wayland, but Firefox 89 gives worst performance than Firefox ESR. The CPU usage is higher playing the same video. :-P
yeap, raspberry will always give the best performance. it just doesn't have all the bells & whistles some crave.

kazin08
Posts: 50
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:08 pm

Re: X11 vs Wayland - Wow!

Wed Jul 14, 2021 11:28 am

kerry_s wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:11 am
kazin08 wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:49 am
Is there a way to use X11 on ubuntu 21.04? because I'm always using remote connection to use my pi, and with wayland the experience is really bad and I can't use V3D, only the software renderer :(
logout & select your user, an icon will show up in the bottom right corner, select gnome xorg
Thanks!

There's a way to login automatically to XORG instead of wayland?

Best regards

User avatar
kerry_s
Posts: 2189
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:14 pm

Re: X11 vs Wayland - Wow!

Wed Jul 14, 2021 12:13 pm

kazin08 wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 11:28 am
kerry_s wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:11 am
kazin08 wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:49 am
Is there a way to use X11 on ubuntu 21.04? because I'm always using remote connection to use my pi, and with wayland the experience is really bad and I can't use V3D, only the software renderer :(
logout & select your user, an icon will show up in the bottom right corner, select gnome xorg
Thanks!

There's a way to login automatically to XORG instead of wayland?

Best regards
once you change it, it always uses the last selected.
so should always login with xorg if you selected it.

Return to “Ubuntu”