davewilk
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Universal Apps on Windows 10 IOT

Sat May 16, 2015 2:30 pm

I know that Windows 10 IOT on Raspi does not support Win32 apps, but can I install Windows Universal apps (metro/store/modern apps)? In particular the Plex client, which seems to run fine on regular Windows 10 (x86), and supposedly supports ARM.

I have purchased a Raspi 2 and was going to install RasPlex on it, but it uses OpenElec and for me Windows would be a more friendly environment.

Or is installing store apps just not the kind of thing Windows 10 IOT is meant for?

fruitoftheloom
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Location: Delightful Dorset

Re: Universal Apps on Windows 10 IOT

Sun May 17, 2015 10:12 pm

adieu

Asus CS10 Chromebit / HP Envy 4500 Wireless Printer / Raspberry Pi Model 2B v1.1 / RealVNC Software...

davewilk
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat May 16, 2015 2:12 pm

Re: Universal Apps on Windows 10 IOT

Mon May 18, 2015 10:04 am

This is a useful link about Universal Apps, but I'm not sure it answers my question.

If I have understood correctly, the intended use of Windows 10 IOT is to write a Universal app (using Visual Studio on another Windows 10 machine) and deploy it to (in the present context) the Raspi. But can you deploy a Universal app that you get from somewhere else (the Windows Store, say)?

Also, taking Plex for example, Plex currently has both a Windows 8 version and a Windows phone 8 version, but it is not (I would think) a Universal app. Might I expect that Plex will become a Universal app at some point in the not too distant future?

I am beginning to realize that Windows 10 IOT is not the platform to build a media center on. My goal was to build a Raspi machine that was (a) a Plex client, and (b) the host for a node.js web application that would control this Plex client, and also control other devices in my home entertainment system (using REST or CEC APi's, or maybe IR blasting). I have made some progress on (b) using a Raspi B+ running Raspbian, and if Plex could be installed on Raspbian, then I would just move this whole project to my Raspi 2 (which would give much better Plex performance). But currently, RasPlex only runs on OpenElec which is not so easy to work with as Raspbian, So I was wondering if Windows 10 IOT might be a possible platform for me.

Do we think there might in the future be a version of Windows 10 for Raspi that is more like Windows RT (full Win32 would be better, but I am sure that is not going to happen)? A Windows analog of Raspbian?

jtanner_msft
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Re: Universal Apps on Windows 10 IOT

Tue May 19, 2015 10:10 pm

Hi Dave,

You are correct that Universal Apps are intended to be able to run anywhere, but the developers will have to write them correctly to test if certain features or APIs are available. If not then that app should gracefully degrade.

This talk from //Build 2015 describes how someone writing a UAP app should handle this: http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2015/3-733

You are also correct that the current Windows 8 Store App is probably not fully a ‘UAP’ app. But if it is a Windows Store App then it should not require much effort for them to make it into a UAP app. For the if or when around that you’ll wanto to check with the Plex team as they might have a better idea in that regard.

You might well be able to use Windows 10 IoT for some if not all of the items you have listed. The main limitation currently though is that only a single UAP app can run as the UI on the device. Anything else that you would want running (such as a node.js web app) would have to run as a background task without any UI. A lot of what Windows 10 IoT Core can offer is still getting refined so it’s a little tricky to talk about it in terms of a completed platform, but you should be able to start to get an idea of what it can do as you play with some of the samples.

We do have support for C++ Win32 console apps, but not ALL of the desktop Win32 is present. To save space they have chosen a subset that attempts to offer the broadest set of features. If you do have an existing utility that you want to port we have this utility that should help you understand and change API calls: http://ms-iot.github.io/content/win10/t ... ngTool.htm

I hope that helps.
Jonathan Tanner | Microsoft | Windows 10 IoT Core Insider Preview Support | This posting is provided 'as is' with no warranties and confers no rights.

davewilk
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Joined: Sat May 16, 2015 2:12 pm

Re: Universal Apps on Windows 10 IOT

Wed May 20, 2015 1:52 pm

Jonathan, thanks for the info.

Suppose Plex was a universal app - how would I install it in Win10 IOT? Everything I see is about deploying apps from Visual Studio.

My node.js program is a web server, so it does not need a GUI. But I need to be able to install node.js itself (and various node packages) and also LIBCEC for HDMI-CEC control.

jtanner_msft
Posts: 105
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 7:12 pm

Re: Universal Apps on Windows 10 IOT

Wed May 20, 2015 6:58 pm

Hi Dave,

You can connect to your Rpi2 device by using the webB management portal – http://<ip address>

That management page has an option under ‘Apps’ to select an ‘Appx’ package to deploy to the device. Between that and the iotstartup commands via powershell you can deploy a package and set it as the app which gets launched:
http://ms-iot.github.io/content/win10/t ... eUtils.htm

If Plex does create a Universal App and follows the rules I mentioned for detecting unsupported APIs, then it should work. One thing that I will point out however is the graphics rendering on the Rpi2 is currently on the slower side since it’s using software rendering. This should improve over time, but for today you probably will not get the level of frame rate that you would need for this purpose..

The other apps you want to run would need to be registered as tasks or background services.

As we get closer to release a lot of these device management / configuration processes will get a little clearer.

I hope this helps.
Jonathan Tanner | Microsoft | Windows 10 IoT Core Insider Preview Support | This posting is provided 'as is' with no warranties and confers no rights.

jcoutch
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Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:27 pm

Re: Universal Apps on Windows 10 IOT

Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:29 pm

So people don't have to hunt down the info like I did, the URL to access your PI is actually:

http://<ip address>:8080

ricl
Posts: 657
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 11:55 am

Re: Universal Apps on Windows 10 IOT

Sun Nov 08, 2015 11:01 am

https://ms-iot.github.io/content/en-US/ ... s/Webb.htm for a complete example on how to use http to connect to the Pi (including the 8080 port).
ricl : F/gamma = ma : Law ii(a) : https://climatedatablog.wordpress.com/2016/01/02/an-energy-challenge-2016/ #AnEnergyChallenge2016

UndergroundFun
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Re: Universal Apps on Windows 10 IOT

Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:22 pm

It has to be a universal application to run on IoT, but not all universal applications will necessarily run on there.

The IoT version on the Pi does NOT support the full range of functionality that would be available on the desktop version of Windows 10. It's very stripped down. I can't say this is the case, but it looks like they started with the Windows phone OS when they developed this. Even there isn't a 1:1 correlation in what it supports.

ricl
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Re: Universal Apps on Windows 10 IOT

Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:40 pm

Not strictly true. You can run Win32 C/C++ headless applications as well. As to regards Windows 10 Core (which IoT actually extends), again partially true. There is only one screen/keyboard/mouse to which only one UWP foreground app can attach at any one time.

The capabilities that ARE available include just about everything other than the 'make my Desktop look like a Server' stuff which is not there.

So you have a full ARM Windows 10 Core NT kernel, with a complete UWP foreground/background layer overlaid on top of it.

You have IoT extensions for GPIO, I2C, SPI. And this is Windows 10, so async for EVERYTHING. Nothing that is non async will work.

Other than that..... :-)
ricl : F/gamma = ma : Law ii(a) : https://climatedatablog.wordpress.com/2016/01/02/an-energy-challenge-2016/ #AnEnergyChallenge2016

UndergroundFun
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Re: Universal Apps on Windows 10 IOT

Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:50 pm

I haven't tried to run any service apps on there.

But still, there are quite a few things that are not present in the included version of the .NET framework. If you're trying to reference one of those, it's not going to work.

Even writing a really simple application I ran into a number of missing classes, or things that simply weren't implemented that I had to try and work around.

ricl
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Re: Universal Apps on Windows 10 IOT

Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:21 pm

I'll bet that most/all of the missing items are to do with them not being available in Windows 8 as well.
ricl : F/gamma = ma : Law ii(a) : https://climatedatablog.wordpress.com/2016/01/02/an-energy-challenge-2016/ #AnEnergyChallenge2016

UndergroundFun
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Re: Universal Apps on Windows 10 IOT

Fri Nov 13, 2015 2:06 pm

I think it has more to do with them using the Windows phone OS as a starting point for that. At least that's the impression I get, and it would make sense.

You get a very cut down (understandably) version of what would be available on a server or desktop.

ricl
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Re: Universal Apps on Windows 10 IOT

Fri Nov 13, 2015 7:49 pm

Almost everything people are complaining about not being present are to do with trying to use Windows 7 (or before) APIs.

Windows 10 IoT is based on an ARM NT Kernel. Something that has not been freely available before now. Previous Kernels for non desktop stuff have either been CE or special adaptions of, i.e. cut down, NT.

On top of that has been placed a modern UWP layer which provides a much more robust application experience because it's all async. No more blocking calls locking the UI.

So tell me, what exactly is that you want to do and can't do now?
ricl : F/gamma = ma : Law ii(a) : https://climatedatablog.wordpress.com/2016/01/02/an-energy-challenge-2016/ #AnEnergyChallenge2016

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kusti8
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Re: Universal Apps on Windows 10 IOT

Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:17 pm

ricl wrote:Almost everything people are complaining about not being present are to do with trying to use Windows 7 (or before) APIs.

Windows 10 IoT is based on an ARM NT Kernel. Something that has not been freely available before now. Previous Kernels for non desktop stuff have either been CE or special adaptions of, i.e. cut down, NT.

On top of that has been placed a modern UWP layer which provides a much more robust application experience because it's all async. No more blocking calls locking the UI.

So tell me, what exactly is that you want to do and can't do now?
What people are saying is that it is not a Windows environment. You can't download any EXE and expect to run it, because it's been compiled for x86 and you need the source. There is no desktop that you see on for example Windows 7. People need to know it's limitations, just like anything, it has limitations.
There are 10 types of people: those who understand binary and those who don't.

ricl
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Re: Universal Apps on Windows 10 IOT

Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:18 pm

kusti8 wrote:What people are saying is that it is not a Windows environment. You can't download any EXE and expect to run it, because it's been compiled for x86 and you need the source. There is no desktop that you see on for example Windows 7. People need to know it's limitations, just like anything, it has limitations.
It's a Windows environment to run stuff YOU have written, not stuff you found on your Desktop/Internet Source/Attic.

But no one has ever claimed it was. Certainly not Microsoft.
ricl : F/gamma = ma : Law ii(a) : https://climatedatablog.wordpress.com/2016/01/02/an-energy-challenge-2016/ #AnEnergyChallenge2016

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kusti8
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Re: Universal Apps on Windows 10 IOT

Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:20 pm

Exactly. There's nothing wrong with that. The problem is that people hear Windows and automatically think they can get their favorite software on the Pi.
There are 10 types of people: those who understand binary and those who don't.

nameyousay
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Re: Universal Apps on Windows 10 IOT

Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:07 am

The problem is that people hear Windows and automatically think they can get their favorite software on the Pi.
Actually, the problem is that you can run any other operating system that can run on the PI and get a fully fledged operating system. If I can run a browser and access the internet on Jessie, why not W10 LoT? Expectations have not been set very well.

Also, if we say it's an Environment for running stuff you've written in Visual Studio, well most of the stuff I write on VS requires a database and a webserver (IIS). You can host a webserver on any flavour of Raspbian, install MySQL / Postgree.

The problem is not that people hear Windows and think they can get their favourite software on the PI, the problem is that they should rightly be able to as they already can with Raspbian or any of the others. It's a computer!

Personally, I think Linux and Python, PHP etc is the dark side of the force. I have been developing the Microsoft Stack since C++ and VB were in their infancy, so really want W10 IoT to be 'the' OS for the PI, so much more in my comfort zone, but c'mon Microsoft really? It's only half an OS. It doesn't matter what Microsoft ever said it was going to be, it needed to be much more. So short sighted!

ricl
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Re: Universal Apps on Windows 10 IOT

Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:58 am

"Actually, the problem is that you can run any other operating system that can run on the PI and get a fully fledged operating system. If I can run a browser and access the internet on Jessie, why not W10 LoT? Expectations have not been set very well."

Apparently yours haven't.

Not mine. I see a wonderful teaching and business platform with a particular set of MS rules basic rules.
As I have mentioned elsewhere, if you need a desktop I know how to do it. And a full OS filling system browser.
Background music and lots, lots more.
Built in Win32 and C#. Now there is a skillset I had thought was in the past. C again. In a space well understood. In retirement.
Most of how I got to there is in the FAQ.

Sure the local supply of giants is low. (See Newton). Either wait for them to arrive or learn to build ladders instead.
ricl : F/gamma = ma : Law ii(a) : https://climatedatablog.wordpress.com/2016/01/02/an-energy-challenge-2016/ #AnEnergyChallenge2016

ricl
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Re: Universal Apps on Windows 10 IOT

Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:59 am

"There are 10 types of people: those who understand binary and those who don't."

There are apparently fewer types of people who notice that 0 is a concept, not a number
https://climatedatablog.wordpress.com/2 ... a-concept/
ricl : F/gamma = ma : Law ii(a) : https://climatedatablog.wordpress.com/2016/01/02/an-energy-challenge-2016/ #AnEnergyChallenge2016

nameyousay
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Re: Universal Apps on Windows 10 IOT

Wed Jan 06, 2016 12:28 pm

I appreciate that your expectations were right on the money because you were aware of the limitations and what it promised probably before it was released, whereas I only installed it yesterday. I can't fault your logic, it does exactly what they said it would do. I can see that now.

My expectations were set from reading the headlines on https://dev.windows.com/en-us/iot and supplemented by years of working in a Microsoft environment and usually being incredibly well surprised at how well they do things.

What I read was:
The Internet of Things (IoT) brings together devices, sensors, cloud, data and your imagination.
All I want to do is use MsSQL Server on my PI alongside my apps, I don't use the PI for anything other than development anyway, but MS is suggesting you can do anything within your imagination, which clearly is disingenuous bearing in mind all the limitations it has. And my imagination, and I'm working on AI and robotic muscle memory atm, stretches a lot further than getting some LEDs to flash.

The problem is that despite what MS have said the limitations of W10 IoT were to be from the outset, they ought to have done a lot more in my opinion.

I actually said C++ not C. Its all C# these days naturally, and C++ is far from retired.

ricl
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Re: Universal Apps on Windows 10 IOT

Wed Jan 06, 2016 12:34 pm

"The problem is that despite what MS have said the limitations of W10 IoT were to be from the outset, they ought to have done a lot more in my opinion.

I actually said C++ not C. Its all C# these days naturally, and C++ is far from retired."

I know. Been dusting off my C for part of my projects on the Pi.

If I may be flippant for a second. Can I characterise the position thus.

The local supply of giants whose shoulder you would like to stand on may be poor. They sometimes move slowly and take some time to get here.
Either do projects that don't require them, wait for them to arrive or build ladders yourself until then :-)
ricl : F/gamma = ma : Law ii(a) : https://climatedatablog.wordpress.com/2016/01/02/an-energy-challenge-2016/ #AnEnergyChallenge2016

nameyousay
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Re: Universal Apps on Windows 10 IOT

Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:33 pm

It's OK, I got it the first time you said it. I chose to ignore it then too. I presume in this case we are talking about the giant muppets of MS? :)

I love MS, but they are shrewd. Trying to force everyone on to Azure. Can't host a DB... why's that?, because they want you to use Azure SQL. You have to run W10 on your machine, has just cost me £189 to upgrade... MS don't do anything without thinking of the payday.

Your FAQ is superb BTW

ricl
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Re: Universal Apps on Windows 10 IOT

Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:23 pm

SQLite works on the PI if that meets your needs.

That is in the FAQ too. Tks.
ricl : F/gamma = ma : Law ii(a) : https://climatedatablog.wordpress.com/2016/01/02/an-energy-challenge-2016/ #AnEnergyChallenge2016

nameyousay
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Re: Universal Apps on Windows 10 IOT

Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:48 pm

To be fair, there's a lot in your FAQ's and I only installed IoT yesterday so still got a lot more to read. If memory serves me right SQLite is embedded in the application which is why it would work. I might be able to expose that so I can query it remotely, set up some web API methods possibly. It works with EF too so might just give it a go. Thanks.

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