tslilcrispel
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when will Raspberry pi 4 + windows 10

Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:09 am

Does anyone knows if someone already made install of windows 10(not Iot) on raspberry pi 4? and if not, when does it ever gonna be..
:)

jamesh
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Re: when will Raspberry pi 4 + windows 10

Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:54 am

This would be down to Microsoft, and as far as I know, they are not working on it, so probably never.
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Re: when will Raspberry pi 4 + windows 10

Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:05 am

tslilcrispel wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:09 am
Does anyone knows if someone already made install of windows 10(not Iot) on raspberry pi 4? and if not, when does it ever gonna be..
:)

Windows 10 Desktop & Server requires x86 CPU Architecture.

Windows on ARM 10 are developed on Qualcomm Snapdragon Platform.


So unless you want to use a community developed version of Windows on ARM which may or may not work as one would expect, you have bought the wrong Single Board Computer for Windows 10...
Retired disgracefully.....

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B.Goode
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Re: when will Raspberry pi 4 + windows 10

Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:36 am

tslilcrispel wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:09 am
Does anyone knows if someone already made install of windows 10(not Iot) on raspberry pi 4? and if not, when does it ever gonna be..

Raspberry Pi, who provide this forum, have a fully supported Operating System, Raspbian, that works on all the hardware they produce.

If you want a third-party alternative it would be better to seek information from the potential developer/maintainer via their own website: https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/contactus/

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mahjongg
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Re: when will Raspberry pi 4 + windows 10

Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:47 pm

tslilcrispel wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:09 am
Does anyone knows if someone already made install of windows 10(not Iot) on raspberry pi 4? and if not, when does it ever gonna be..
:)
NEVER! :twisted: :geek:

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Re: when will Raspberry pi 4 + windows 10

Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:22 pm

You never know. With Microsoft embracing FOSS I’m sure they will release the W10 source code NOT
:lol:
:roll:
:lol:
:roll:
Need Pi spray - these things are breeding in my house...

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paddyg
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Re: when will Raspberry pi 4 + windows 10

Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:48 pm

also https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en-GB&fromgroups=#!forum/pi3d

Heater
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Re: when will Raspberry pi 4 + windows 10

Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:16 am

I'm happy to have been using "Linux on the Desktop", the Linux Subsystem for Windows on the Windows desktop that is, for some years now.

The suggestion of a Linux kernel based Windows is already some years old. First mooted mooted after one two many beers when discussing LSW down the pub. Later by Bryan Lunduke on his video blog.

It's not all about MS being all warm and friendly to Open Source now a days. MS was a language supplier, but it's impossible to make money from compilers today. MS was an OS supplier, but it's impossible to make money from an OS. No, it's all about getting us hooked on Azure cloud services. We don't own computers we rent them in that future. MS needs to get all the worlds developers on board for that. Today's developers are sold on Open Source. Hence the Open Source carrots from MS.

This is still your grand father's MS.

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Gavinmc42
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Re: when will Raspberry pi 4 + windows 10

Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:18 am

Interesting link.
Never say "Never"?

Has MS noticed that the third biggest selling "PC" is a tiny SBC coming from the UK?
Have they noticed kids are growing up using them and learning Linux by osmosis?
The writing is on the wall for MS and has been for years.
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Re: when will Raspberry pi 4 + windows 10

Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:35 am

I suspect MS does not care much about a computer with 20 million users. That is a drop in the ocean when we are talking cloud services.
The writing is on the wall for MS and has been for years.
Really, check this out: Microsoft hits all-time high after hiking dividend and buying back more stock: https://edition.cnn.com/2019/09/19/inve ... index.html

Quote from the article:

"Microsoft is now worth nearly $1.1 trillion. The stock is up almost 40% this year and is the second-best performing stock in the Dow, trailing just Apple (AAPL) — the only other company with a market valuation above $1 trillion. Apple is up 41% so far in 2019."
...

"Microsoft has transformed itself into a cloud giant under CEO Satya Nadella..."

Like I said, it's not about toy operating systems and personal computers anymore.

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Re: when will Raspberry pi 4 + windows 10

Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:35 pm

Proof of concept that full Windows 10 Desktop can run on a Pi has already been demonstrated.

Eben's published view on having full Windows 10 Desktop is "That's a Microsoft decision. I continue to be enthusiastic", "It would be lovely to run Windows. But it's an issue, it's a question for Microsoft really. I'd love to see it, but I think it's less critical than it used to be".

Or one can choose to believe it cannot and could not be done and won't ever happen.

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Re: when will Raspberry pi 4 + windows 10

Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:31 pm

The age old question is:

Given that all useful software for Windows is provided as Intel x86 executables that won't run on ARM, what would one do with with Windows on the Pi if there was one?

jamesh
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Re: when will Raspberry pi 4 + windows 10

Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:49 pm

Raspberry Pi (Trading) isn't doing anything to implement Windows on the Pi. Nothing. Nada. Zilch.

And as far as I know, MS have not been in contact asking any questions about the pi4 hardware at all. I am sure we would help them if they asked.

So read in to that what you will.
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Re: when will Raspberry pi 4 + windows 10

Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:08 pm

Heater wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:31 pm
Given that all useful software for Windows is provided as Intel x86 executables that won't run on ARM, what would one do with with Windows on the Pi if there was one?
Windows on ARM runs natively but transparently invokes emulation for X86 applications, currently only 32-bit.

Performance seems quite sprightly watching Proof of Concept videos. It's probably good enough for anyone who would want to use Windows 10 Desktop on a Pi, who is prepared to accept the limitations for the gains, and, if it isn't, choose something else other than a Pi.

It's like complaining that the Pi Zero's desktop is too sluggish to be usable or one can't open enough tabs in Chromium or videos won't play or play smoothly - Choose the right tool for the task, or put up with what one chooses to use.

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Re: when will Raspberry pi 4 + windows 10

Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:42 pm

I have heard of this x86 emulation for ARM Windows.

Never seen it in action but I'd be very surprised if it's anything anyone would want to live with.

I try to use the same tool for all tasks, embedded, desktop, server. Using Linux everywhere you can simplifies things greatly :)

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Re: when will Raspberry pi 4 + windows 10

Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:56 pm

Heater wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:42 pm
I have heard of this x86 emulation for ARM Windows.

Never seen it in action but I'd be very surprised if it's anything anyone would want to live with.

I try to use the same tool for all tasks, embedded, desktop, server. Using Linux everywhere you can simplifies things greatly :)
FX!32 did a remarkably good job on Alpha, I suspect this would be something similar. (ie translates to native code whilst running, not emulation)
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Re: when will Raspberry pi 4 + windows 10

Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:27 pm

Do you mean the DEC Alpha?

As I recall that was much faster than the average PC at the time so emulation could keep up.

When moving from PC to Pi there is not that performance to waste. Quite the opposite.

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Re: when will Raspberry pi 4 + windows 10

Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:59 pm

Heater wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:42 pm
Never seen it in action but I'd be very surprised if it's anything anyone would want to live with.
Might be worth checking out some of the Proof of Concept demonstrations. As I said it seemed quite sprightly to me though graphics seemed to be a little slow, but it is on a Pi anyway when there's no hardware acceleration; we see that as a common complaint regarding Android on a Pi, though perfectly usable for those who don't find that to be a problem.

It's not as slow as those older PC's we all put up with and were impressed by in the past so, I guess, whether good enough or not will have to be personally judged on a case by case basis. Some will be happy enough others probably far from it. For some it's not purely about speed.
Heater wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:42 pm
I try to use the same tool for all tasks, embedded, desktop, server. Using Linux everywhere you can simplifies things greatly :)
Wanting to use tools and applications which users are familiar with is one of the reasons some people want to have Windows 10 Desktop on a Pi.

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Re: when will Raspberry pi 4 + windows 10

Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:29 am

Heater wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:27 pm
Do you mean the DEC Alpha?

As I recall that was much faster than the average PC at the time so emulation could keep up.

When moving from PC to Pi there is not that performance to waste. Quite the opposite.
FX!32 wasn't wholly an emulator. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FX!32
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Re: when will Raspberry pi 4 + windows 10

Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:40 am

Is WineHQ a possible Winows solution?

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Re: when will Raspberry pi 4 + windows 10

Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:00 am

Ok, the FX!32 is probably more correctly referred to as a binary translator.

I think my point stands though, it ran Windows code on Alpha about half as fast as an x86, helped by the fact that the Alpha was a faster chip. Such a technique used on the Pi would run pretty slowly I think given that the processor is already at a speed disadvantage compared x86.

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Re: when will Raspberry pi 4 + windows 10

Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:05 am

John_Spikowski wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:40 am
Is WineHQ a possible Winows solution?
Still not an emulator - it just translates calls from Windows to Linux but still within the x86 instruction set.
Need Pi spray - these things are breeding in my house...

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Re: when will Raspberry pi 4 + windows 10

Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:17 am

Heater wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:00 am
I think my point stands though, it ran Windows code on Alpha about half as fast as an x86, helped by the fact that the Alpha was a faster chip. Such a technique used on the Pi would run pretty slowly I think given that the processor is already at a speed disadvantage compared x86.
That's really just "concern trolling" considering you have never tried it, haven't even watched any of the Proof of Concept demonstrations. You have made your point that you don't think it will be good enough but why not let others decide for themselves ?

The irony is that people who might want to use Windows 10 Desktop on a Pi would invariably try it anyway, to see for themselves, or seek the opinions of those who have, rather than be steered away from doing so by others who have their own agendas and may wish to steer them onto some other path.

Besides, Windows 10 Desktop on Pi doesn't exist beyond Proof of Concept and there are far worse things about that which will put most people off using it than speed.

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Re: when will Raspberry pi 4 + windows 10

Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:55 am

hippy wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:17 am
Heater wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:00 am
I think my point stands though, it ran Windows code on Alpha about half as fast as an x86, helped by the fact that the Alpha was a faster chip. Such a technique used on the Pi would run pretty slowly I think given that the processor is already at a speed disadvantage compared x86.
That's really just "concern trolling" considering you have never tried it, haven't even watched any of the Proof of Concept demonstrations. You have made your point that you don't think it will be good enough but why not let others decide for themselves ?

The irony is that people who might want to use Windows 10 Desktop on a Pi would invariably try it anyway, to see for themselves, or seek the opinions of those who have, rather than be steered away from doing so by others who have their own agendas and may wish to steer them onto some other path.

Besides, Windows 10 Desktop on Pi doesn't exist beyond Proof of Concept and there are far worse things about that which will put most people off using it than speed.

Windows 10 MiniPC £75.00

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Z83II-Mini-P ... 3358284341
Retired disgracefully.....

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Re: when will Raspberry pi 4 + windows 10

Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:53 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:55 am
Windows 10 MiniPC £75.00

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Z83II-Mini-P ... 3358284341
And I picked up a better Intel 64-bit Windows 10 Desktop Mini-PC than that for £10 second-hand but it's not really relevant to running Windows 10 Desktop on a Pi, which the OP is asking about.

A link to something running Windows on ARM might be more appropriate.
Last edited by hippy on Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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