Windows on Pi?


155 posts   Page 5 of 7   1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
by pluggy » Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:08 pm
Windoze is a disease and we don't want it within a couple of light years of the Pi. The Pi has many faults but not running said OS isn't one of them. :D
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by abishur » Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:05 pm
pluggy wrote:Windoze is a disease and we don't want it within a couple of light years of the Pi. The Pi has many faults but not running said OS isn't one of them. :D


To be fair, any OS that is the market share is going to have it's issues telegraphed and magnified. *Every* OS has its fatal flaws, and every OS has areas in which it excels. Singling any one of them out and categorically denouncing everything about them is considered fan boi behavior and weakens ones position ;-)

All that said, while I've gotten Windows 3.1 working via dosbox, and I've seen XP boot on the pi in ScummVM (it took something like 8 hours to do so), windows on the pi is an unrealistic expectation. To be even more blunt, it's effectively an impossibility. You might as well try and force Windows Server 2008 R2 onto an x86 processor, it just can't be done. Microsoft would have to develop a special version of their OS that worked with the older ARM processor, decrease the CPU requirements by 50%, the RAM requirements by 75%, and gut out a slew of other "minimum required hardware" that the pi doesn't have.
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by Zsolt » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:09 am
So I work at Microsoft (don't everyone boo at once :D). I got a board, and will attempt a Windows Compact 7 installation, see how it goes. Windows 8 compact is out as well, but Windows 7 likely is more stable. The biggest issue will be if I have to write a bunch of device drivers for the Raspberry PI, but we'll see.

For hobby use the OS plus tools (VS 2008) are free, at least for 6 months, but the Microsoft website (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsembedde ... act-7.aspx) does say it is free for hobby use, so if you are not building a comercial product, seems like you can use it forever, though don't quote me on it. Comercial license is not that bad for the Windows 7 Compact OS for ARM, it is only $16. What is not so great is that you'll have to buy the tools for $1000, but that's a one time fee, and I am guessing that if you already have Visual Studio 2008, the cost is much less - but again, this is only if you are making a product that you want to manufacture and sell.

Regardless, for now I'll stick with Linux and will dabble with Windows to see how things go.
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by rew » Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:05 pm
Ok, there we go, everyone boo in sequence: Boooo!!!

:-) Just kidding.
If that version of windows-7 is intended to go into embedded devices like phones and such, I expect you will have some device drivers already present. Things like SD card and serial port will be present, I don't expect much for the USB (and therefore ethernet). Video will be "flat framebuffer", which should also work. Good luck!
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by Zsolt » Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:51 am
Yes, I do think so, that some of the basic drivers will be there. Don't expect a quick answer on how this goes, as I am working on this in-between work and a bunch of other projects - but I will definietly give it a try as the Windows CE/Compact 7 and now Windows 8 platform has been running on ARM since like the 90's, so hopefully I won't hit too many roadblocks. I'll keep this forum posted of any progress.
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by cheery » Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:54 am
How do you handle the graphics driver? I've thought that Win7 requires accelerated graphics.

Or are you writing drivers there?
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by rurwin » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:30 am
This will be Windows CE 7, not Windows 7. It is designed for embedded control applications, so it probably does not require accelerated graphics. It wont run Call of Duty either.
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by Zsolt » Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:57 am
Yes, that's correct it is the compact version of Windows, though it was renamed from "CE" to "Compact". As far as Call of Duty, for sure not, but these compact versions of Windows do have a limited version of DirectX and GPU support (with the right driver). For sure the Windows 8 Compact OS has to have GPU support, as it is the OS that runs on the phones. I am actually pretty new to the embedded OS scene, as when I get a MCU I tend to write code for it without an OS.
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by -rst- » Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:16 am
I have been 'laughing behind my beard' here at all the 'Windows does not run on ARM' comments - having developed applications for PocketPCs and Handheld PCs running Windows CE for years in the early noughties ...ok, most of the newer appliances used the StrongArm or XScale, but same base architecture anyway ;)
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by jamesh » Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:25 am
-rst- wrote:I have been 'laughing behind my beard' here at all the 'Windows does not run on ARM' comments - having developed applications for PocketPCs and Handheld PCs running Windows CE for years in the early noughties ...ok, most of the newer appliances used the StrongArm or XScale, but same base architecture anyway ;)


Why laugh? The Windows that the vast majority of people have experience of will not run on Arm...Yes, WinCE will run on Arm, but most people won't even have heard of it.
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by mahjongg » Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:51 pm
Most people will not even consider windows CE to be windows!
Despite that some form of IE runs on it.
They never drank the kool aid.
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by abishur » Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:39 am
For me much of the issue revolves around the definition of "runs on" someone, using qemu, got XP to "run" on the pi. It took something around 8 hours to boot to the basic screen, but it "ran". With some work could you slap windows 7 CE or windows 8 ARM onto the pi? Possibly, but it wouldn't operate at anything that I would count as a legitimate definition of "running"
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by tufty » Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:50 am
abishur wrote:For me much of the issue revolves around the definition of "runs on" someone, using qemu, got XP to "run" on the pi. It took something around 8 hours to boot to the basic screen, but it "ran". With some work could you slap windows 7 CE or windows 8 ARM onto the pi? Possibly, but it wouldn't operate at anything that I would count as a legitimate definition of "running"

For Win7 CE and Win XP Embedded, I disagree. They should be able to run natively on the Pi hardware - as you say, with some work - but they certainly should run acceptably. No, they won't run the applications a typical desktop windows user would expect, and will be restricted to applications written specifically for those platforms, but they could in theory be used. The downside is that, as I understand it, and similarly to Android, they are intended as deployment platforms and not development platforms. WinXP embedded, for example, is what runs my chairlift. Horror of horrors, we trust human lives to it (although I've not managed to bluescreen it yet).

Even Win8 ARM RT (wart) isn't entirely out of the realms of possibility, in the same way that OSX can be coaxed to run on "beige boxes".

I don't think it's particularly desirable to do any of this, of course.
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by -rst- » Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:21 am
jamesh wrote:
-rst- wrote:I have been 'laughing behind my beard'... ;)


Why laugh? The Windows that the vast majority of people have experience of will not run on Arm...Yes, WinCE will run on Arm, but most people won't even have heard of it.


Well... it just makes me laugh (amused, not evil) to realise how little people know of what's (been) going 'behind the scenes': in-car navigators, AV electronics, cash machines etc.

And of course the merrier the laugh when I remember those times: we had several thousand installations of our apps running on 'Windows' on ARM, producing ROI for the customer companies, bringing in money from exports, the company was extremely fun to work for and my investment in it grew 16 fold while many IT companies withered in the aftermath of the dot-com bubble :mrgreen:

(I only regret that I didn't invest more money... :oops: )
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by mahjongg » Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:56 am
Yes, but the title of this tread is not talking about "windows in washing machines", but about windows running desktop computers. When people ask if "windows runs on a PI", they are talking about the latter, not the former (which indeed they have no idea about, nor do they care). What they are talking about is a platform on which the applications they want to use runs.


Also with all due respect, compared to other embedded solutions Windows CE (and derivatives) don't have much of a market share. How many routers do you know that use it? The main selling point is applications that needs some kind of GUI, and not many embedded systems need that. You examples are the exception, and do.
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by rew » Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:06 am
So whereas some of the people asking "does it run windows", want to run their PC-software on there, but others may be asking for the "windows programming API". And I expect that the API might show some resemblance to the PC api, making it easy for some people to port over their applications from Windows-PC to the 'pi.

In a similar vein, raspberry pi's are being deployed as embedded platforms for diverse control problems. That's exactly what Windows-embedded is aiming for too.
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by Pete6 » Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:17 pm
Since I have owned my Pi I have come to realize just how much I have Unix and Linux. I first used Unix under BSD 4.2 back in the 1980s. I hated it then. At the time I was a VMS system manager.

The faster Windows (even RT) is put on the Pi, the better.

Debian Linux is just so PRIMITIVE when compared to Windows. Simple things like changing the Desktop wallpaper are hugely complicated and installing a product is just arcane in the extreme. Even the forums are just so over the top with unnecessary technicalities. I installed VNC and the simple, and common sense way to run this program is to type vncserver<enter>, and it works. Two websites I visited gave me a command line with many unnecessary options.

My belief is that giving Linux to children is almost child abuse.

PLEASE give me Windows RT even if I have to PAY for it.
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by ghans » Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:46 pm
How much do you want to pay ?


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by Pete6 » Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:02 pm
ghans wrote:How much do you want to pay ?


ghans

The same as on my laptop and desktop PCs, the full Microsoft license fee. What else did you think?

I believe that you get what you pay for and Linux is free. Worth every cent.
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by rurwin » Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:15 pm
Pete6 wrote:changing the Desktop wallpaper are hugely complicated


It isn't. It is precisely the same as on Windows, you just misunderstood the file-open dialog. See here for where you went wrong.
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by Pete6 » Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:34 pm
rurwin wrote:
Pete6 wrote:changing the Desktop wallpaper are hugely complicated


It isn't. It is precisely the same as on Windows, you just misunderstood the file-open dialog. See here for where you went wrong.

I did not go wrong at all.

I had an image on a USB stick that I wished to use as wallpaper. I had to copy the pic from the USB stick to /etc/alternatives. Easy, right? Sure it is. However it took me about 30 minutes of Googling to find that the ONLY place that Linux allows wallpapers to be selected from was /alt/alternatives.

How is a kid who has been used to Windows and just <right mouse clicking> on any image and selecting the context menu option to "Set as wallpaper" going to react to that.

Now, I am an experienced computer geek. My first home computer was a Motorola 6800 with 256 bytes (yes, bytes) of memory. I have worked on TRS-DOS, CP/M, DEC RT-11, DEC RSTS, DEC RSX-11M, VAX/VMS (system manager), all the MS OSs from DOS v1.0 (no sub-directories), Unix BSD 4.2, DEC, Ultrix and the very first releases of X-Windows.

I won't say that I am in love with all aspects of MS-Windows but it is far and away the best and easiest to use OS in the world today. This is why it is used on 90%-ish of all desktops. Why then is the computer proposed for education of our next generation of IT professionals using a desktop environment used by about 1% of desktops? The only possible reason is that it is free and, imo, worth exactly what's being paid for it.

Linux has basically flat-lined in terms of user friendliness. I expected hard to use OSs back in the 1970s and 80s because the CPU power and memory was just not there. Today however there is just no excuse.
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by khulat » Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:38 pm
You will have to pay more than just the license cost, because Windows on the Pi is impossible unless we are talking about the embedded version. Which you are not talking about, so you need another device that supports Windows.
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by rurwin » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:54 am
Pete6 wrote:the ONLY place that Linux allows wallpapers to be selected from was /alt/alternatives.


That is simply untrue. My current wallpaper is in my home directory. The .../alternatives directory is where the file-open dialog opens to because it starts at the location of the current wallpaper and that is where the big raspberry picture exists, but all you have to do is to navigate to wherever your picture is. See the link I gave.
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by W. H. Heydt » Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:32 am
Pete6 wrote:
ghans wrote:How much do you want to pay ?


ghans

The same as on my laptop and desktop PCs, the full Microsoft license fee. What else did you think?

I believe that you get what you pay for and Linux is free. Worth every cent.


Of course...you do realize, don't you, that Win8 ARM requires UEFI (which the Pi doesn't have) and that it be locked down so that *only* Win8 can run on the device? Are you willing to pay to have that extra hardware designed in and the device limited to only running Win8, not just for you, but for everyone else as well?
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by abishur » Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:49 am
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