VGA ever going to be implemented in future revisions?


 
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by W. H. Heydt » Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:51 pm
The monitor (24" AOC) that my wife is using has VGA...and HDMI. The later was a surprise when I wanted to hook up a Pi to it and had gotten out an HDMI-to-DVI cable... Fortunately, I also had a straight HDMI cable around.
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by Jim Manley » Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:28 am
For all of you hotshots who have discovered a VGA input on that nifty computer-monitor-masquerading-as-a-digital-TV, how many hundreds of dollars (possibly over $1,000 just a few years ago) did you pay for it? What is the price point of the Pi again? Like I said, compared to the Pi, VGA ain't cheap, even if it's buried in a fancy-schmancy display - quod erat demonstrandum.
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by jojopi » Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:54 am
Jim Manley wrote:So, the development costs of the SoC were paid for by Roku, who determined what the features and specifications would be.
In this theory, why did they specify CSI and DSI that they are not using?
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by mikerr » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:36 am
Many schools are full of VGA-only monitors, as the cheapest monitors even now don't have DVI (silly though that is).
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by SimonSmall » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:38 am
I think it is clear that the Raspberry Pi has been designed without the VGA output, and that getting one would push the price up. Considering that a lot of people don't want one, it is unlikely to change.

The case is not included either. The "community" has responded to this by creating lots of cases in different designs and colours, and perhaps we are better off because of this.

There are adaptors available, so those who want a VGA output can get it. Those who don't are spared the extra cost. One that comes from Farnell, who are a partner distributor of the Pi, and is branded as a Pi accessory is the PiView for £20 (http://uk.farnell.com/element14/piview/ ... p/2133899#). In general terms, this does not seem too expensive to me. I don't know how well it works, or if there any similarly priced alternatives
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by Joe Schmoe » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:18 am
Note that one straightforward way to get the Pi to display on a VGA monitor is to use VNC.

That doesn't require any adapters at all.
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by Jim Manley » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:08 pm
jojopi wrote:
Jim Manley wrote:So, the development costs of the SoC were paid for by Roku, who determined what the features and specifications would be.
In this theory, why did they specify CSI and DSI that they are not using?

Perhaps for a future variant product of which you aren't aware yet ... ;)

CSI and DSI are features that a manufacturer gets in the BCM2835 because they specified something else, in this case the VideoCore IV GPU hardware. If you know anything about silicon libraries, CSI and DSI are contained in silicon layout packages that are apparently deeply integrated into the GPU library. Teardowns of the Rokus don't appear to show CSI and DSI interfaces because they didn't need them and so they didn't bring them out on PC board traces, but on the Pi, the Foundation designers did.

Network digital vIdeo streaming devices don't need nearly as much RAM as a general-purpose computing platform, so that's why the POP RAM interface on the BCM2835 can't address more than 512 MBs. By reducing the connection count, complexity (and therefore cost, including that of testing, as well as power consumption and heat dissipation) goes down and device production yield and reliability go up.

By packing as much as possible into each succeeding generation of devices, silicon device manufacturers like Broadcom can sell a design, or family of closely-related designs, into as many markets as possible, which spreads development costs over larger numbers of devices sold. It's similar to how office software has evolved into ever-larger collections of increasingly-esoteric features - how many people ever use the glossary-building or mathematical function layout features in their word processor?
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by khulat » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:13 pm
Jim Manley wrote:
jojopi wrote:
Jim Manley wrote:...so that's why the POP RAM interface on the BCM2835 can't address more than 512 MBs.


It can address 1024MB, the problem is that no one produces 1024MB POP RAM Modules. But that's just me being nitpicky.
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by toxibunny » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:15 pm
Joe Schmoe wrote:Note that one straightforward way to get the Pi to display on a VGA monitor is to use VNC.

That doesn't require any adapters at all.


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by jamesh » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:43 pm
Jim is mostly right. But, roku didnt commision the design. It was already available and roku chose it. :D The 2835 is basically a 2763 (videocore 4) with an added Arm core. The arm core is small and fitted easily into some spare die space on the 2763. So the 2763 was born!
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by jamesh » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:46 pm
Sorry that should say 2835.

So that is why there is no vga, but there are interfaces for two cameras , lcd, hdmi, usb etc.
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by Pete6 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:38 pm
Cloudcentric wrote:Actually my Hannspree UK 1080P Freeview TV has VGA / Scart / HDMI / Compsite..

Many TV's came with VGA prior to the implementation of HDMi, but as I said above it is more cost effective not to implement Analogue Output on a Digital Device.

Likewise my 2 year old LG. 2 x HDMI, VGA, 2 x SCART and, Composite.
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by toxibunny » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:43 pm
the adaptors aren't actually that expensive nowadays, and can be used for your playstation/blu ray player/whatever else. viewtopic.php?f=45&t=23125

A year ago, 150 quid was a normal price for these...
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by lewmur » Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:59 am
BlockABoots wrote:Well thats just it, i dont see having an RGB or VGA output would have been a far stretch considering how basic and universal a connection type it is, i mean its been common place in PC for the last...20+ years, would it have cost much more to have an RGB output implemented than the composite one we currently have?

Im sure everyone here would be extremely surprised if they bought a new mobo with onboard GFX and it DIDNT have a VGA socket on it......infact im not even asking for a VGA socket just some way (pins on pcb??) to get an RGB signal from the Raspberry. So if users want to use RGB they can just knock up a VGA or Scart cable themselves

What part of "the SoC doesn't have VGA output" don't you understand? The SoC was developed originally for phones and tablets and NOT PCs. Ever see a tablet or phone with VGA out? No!

To get VGA from the Pi would require the same circuitry that is in the HDMI to VGA active converters. How much do those cost? And how much larger would it make the Pi? It is much better to limit that expense to people, like yourself, that have a specific need for VGA rather than increasing the cost of the Pi for the vast majority that DON'T need it.

So, if you must have VGA, then fork over the money to buy your own HDMI to VGA converter.
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by jamesh » Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:17 am
lewmur wrote:
BlockABoots wrote:Well thats just it, i dont see having an RGB or VGA output would have been a far stretch considering how basic and universal a connection type it is, i mean its been common place in PC for the last...20+ years, would it have cost much more to have an RGB output implemented than the composite one we currently have?

Im sure everyone here would be extremely surprised if they bought a new mobo with onboard GFX and it DIDNT have a VGA socket on it......infact im not even asking for a VGA socket just some way (pins on pcb??) to get an RGB signal from the Raspberry. So if users want to use RGB they can just knock up a VGA or Scart cable themselves

What part of "the SoC doesn't have VGA output" don't you understand? The SoC was developed originally for phones and tablets and NOT PCs. Ever see a tablet or phone with VGA out? No!

To get VGA from the Pi would require the same circuitry that is in the HDMI to VGA active converters. How much do those cost? And how much larger would it make the Pi? It is much better to limit that expense to people, like yourself, that have a specific need for VGA rather than increasing the cost of the Pi for the vast majority that DON'T need it.

So, if you must have VGA, then fork over the money to buy your own HDMI to VGA converter.


Chill dude - although the points you make are indeed correct, there's no need to get quite so ranty!
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by aTao » Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:27 am
khulat wrote:
It can address 1024MB, the problem is that no one produces 1024MB POP RAM Modules. But that's just me being nitpicky.


The RAM on
Image
is http://www.samsung.com/global/business/semiconductor/product/mobile-dram/detail?productId=7611&iaId=747

So.. http://www.samsung.com/global/business/semiconductor/product/mobile-dram/detail?productId=7609&iaId=747
whazzat then?
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by lewmur » Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:43 am
jamesh wrote:
lewmur wrote:
BlockABoots wrote:Well thats just it, i dont see having an RGB or VGA output would have been a far stretch considering how basic and universal a connection type it is, i mean its been common place in PC for the last...20+ years, would it have cost much more to have an RGB output implemented than the composite one we currently have?

Im sure everyone here would be extremely surprised if they bought a new mobo with onboard GFX and it DIDNT have a VGA socket on it......infact im not even asking for a VGA socket just some way (pins on pcb??) to get an RGB signal from the Raspberry. So if users want to use RGB they can just knock up a VGA or Scart cable themselves

What part of "the SoC doesn't have VGA output" don't you understand? The SoC was developed originally for phones and tablets and NOT PCs. Ever see a tablet or phone with VGA out? No!

To get VGA from the Pi would require the same circuitry that is in the HDMI to VGA active converters. How much do those cost? And how much larger would it make the Pi? It is much better to limit that expense to people, like yourself, that have a specific need for VGA rather than increasing the cost of the Pi for the vast majority that DON'T need it.

So, if you must have VGA, then fork over the money to buy your own HDMI to VGA converter.


Chill dude - although the points you make are indeed correct, there's no need to get quite so ranty!
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by jamesh » Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:08 am
aTao wrote:
khulat wrote:
It can address 1024MB, the problem is that no one produces 1024MB POP RAM Modules. But that's just me being nitpicky.


The RAM on
Image
is http://www.samsung.com/global/business/semiconductor/product/mobile-dram/detail?productId=7611&iaId=747

So.. http://www.samsung.com/global/business/semiconductor/product/mobile-dram/detail?productId=7609&iaId=747
whazzat then?


Wrong number of chip select lines. AFAIK, no-one makes a 1GB device with the right number.
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by W. H. Heydt » Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:58 am


Well... For one thing, 4Gb (the spec that is on the page you linked to) is 512MB, which is the amount of memory the Pis produced since at leat mid-October have had. You'd need to find an 8Gb package with the correct pinouts to provide a Pi with 1GB.
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by W. H. Heydt » Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:16 am
lewmur wrote:So, if you must have VGA, then fork over the money to buy your own HDMI to VGA converter.


Yup. That was my solution I have three of these:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/produ ... 1&format=2

Two of them I got on sale for about $30 each, since I liked the first one so much.

I found problems with the simple cable ones that are powered by the HDMI port. They don't support the screen geometries I want to use, but the one I linked to above does.

As for the "schools with lots of old VGA only displays"...some of the favorable reviews on the Monoprice site are from school techs in just that position.
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by aTao » Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:46 am
W. H. Heydt wrote:


Well... For one thing, 4Gb (the spec that is on the page you linked to) is 512MB, which is the amount of memory the Pis produced since at leat mid-October have had. You'd need to find an 8Gb package with the correct pinouts to provide a Pi with 1GB.


Dohh!, the image is the rev1 board, 256M * 32 b, so the other one is of course the 512M*32b that ev 2 uses. Drat, foiled again.
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by jfornango » Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:22 pm
Heck... many flat panels in the U.S. are still being produced with composite input, just to support old devices.

In truth, those lovely little RCA jacks have become so standard, I doubt they will go away anytime soon.

The benefit of Broadcom designing their chip this way, is that they can spit output to any television, new or old. (notice I said 'television,' not 'monitor')

I say kudos to the Foundation for recognizing the value of "old school" and hooking us up!
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by gragib » Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:24 pm
If you want an ARM board with VGA, take a look at the APC. It runs Android right off the onboard flash, but it can also run Linux distros and because of the form-factor, you should be able to mount it inside a standard PC case.
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by pluggy » Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:13 pm
The composite signal is so old and crude it is easily emulated from digital using software. It costs little more to implement than the cost of the connector. So it probably will be around for a while.
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by Pete6 » Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:33 pm
This thread never seems to die.

There are several ways to connect the Pi to a monitor a at least two ways to access it without a monitor (headless). The headless solution using Putty is perfectly good if you do not want the graphical environment. This is a good solution if you just want to programme the Pi from a PC.

Using VNC or similar allows headless operation with startx from Windows and gives you the graphical environment. I am sure - just have not actually done this one - that you can use remote desktop to get in to startx as well.

The composite output can be used to connect to some older TVs that still have composite inputs or, you can use a UHF modulator to work with the aerial input of a TV. Bet the quality is not that good though.

The HDMI connector is by far the best method of watch the Pi though. You can connect directly to a monitor or TV that has an HDMI connector or you can buy an HDMI to DVI adapter plug or cable for very little money. I connect this via a DVI A/B switch that I got for a tenner on Amazon.

Beyond that, you will need to spend quite a bit of money to make VGA work via an active (it's not just a cable) and imo, that money would be better spent going towards a DVI equipped monitor.
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