No need for the QtOnPi community?


 
64 posts   Page 1 of 3   1, 2, 3
by jppiiroinen » Sat May 26, 2012 10:34 am
Dear Raspberry Pi foundation,

I am one of the people (speaking only on my own behalf) in the QtOnPI Device Programme [2], which promised to deliver a device for development purposes from the first batch. We have been pending our devices since last December. And I need to describe my frustration that from my point of view it really seems that you do not care at all about the community.

At first when I got the information that I will receive one board thru Nokia and you, I was so in love with you, but now it has turned out into kind of a hate relationship of an old couple, where the other partner has gone drinking and never comes home, just gives a empty promises.

It has been now already over a month after we have sent the codes to your email, with the shipping details.

1) What on earth is taking so long?
2) Why do you want us to be frustrated in the first place?
3) Would not it make sense to have an excellent community of developers who are willing to work for free for you?

[1] viewforum.php?f=24
[2] http://qt-project.org/wiki/Device-program


Kind regards,
Juhapekka Piiroinen
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 9:51 am
by gtissington@gmail.com » Sat May 26, 2012 12:51 pm
I'd like to speak up on this also. One of the most impressive aspects of the Raspberry Pi Foundation has been the very high level of diligence in communicating with the development community.

It seems someone has dropped the ball with respect to the Qt On Pi community.

Please, could someone from the foundation let us know what we can expect for the availability date of units to be shipped to the participants of the Qt On Pi Program.

Sitting in limbo is very frustrating
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:13 am
by grumpyoldgit » Sat May 26, 2012 12:54 pm
Did you not think of contacting them direct some time ago rather than air your dirty linen in public now?
User avatar
Posts: 1458
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:20 pm
by stuartmarsden » Sat May 26, 2012 1:05 pm
Another one caught in limbo by the ignoring of the QtonPi community.

This is really against the aims of Raspberry Pi. Nokia has marshalled around 400 interesting projects with mentors a toolchain and everything needed in place. These could have been a real showcase for the Pi and encouraged programmers. Instead most have probably given up by now or ordered their own with no prerogative to give back to the community as they would have had when receiving a free one.

Instead it has just been a lottery on who gets one first and the promise to the QtonPi community has been broken. I assume that Nokia gave you money up front to secure these 400 which makes it even worse.

I have the greatest respect for all at Raspberry Pi and what you are doing but you need to sort this. I know you are amateurs dealing with amazing demand but this is a real own goal and ignoring it is just making things worse.

To grumpyoldgit, many have tried especially Quim Gill at Nokia but they have been ignored which is why the frustration is coming out.
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 12:52 pm
by jppiiroinen » Sat May 26, 2012 1:07 pm
grumpyoldgit wrote:Did you not think of contacting them direct some time ago rather than air your dirty linen in public now?


There has been several direct contacts to them and as well as there has been several emails on the qtonpi mailing list. And as nothing seems to move forward, this seemed a lot better media to share the frustrations on the process. As from our point of view, what we have received are empty promises..
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 9:51 am
by jppiiroinen » Sat May 26, 2012 1:09 pm
grumpyoldgit wrote:Did you not think of contacting them direct some time ago rather than air your dirty linen in public now?


It should not be either an issue to handle feedback in an open source way. And as there are 400 other people waiting for their devices, maybe only a single forum topic is a lot easier to handle than some 400*5 emails.
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 9:51 am
by richmoore » Sat May 26, 2012 1:51 pm
I don't know if Juhapekka contacted them, but I'm in same boat and sent them a follow up message by email. Unfortunately I didn't receive any response. The process has definitely gone a bit wrong - I certainly would have been happy to pay for a Pi, but because I'd been told we had reserved ones (originally from the first batch), I didn't register with RS.

I think the lack of any information about estimated time lines, or even a reply that says "we don't know" is generally adding to the frustration.

Cheers

Rich.
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:32 am
by kyyberi » Sat May 26, 2012 2:02 pm
Affects me too. Frustrated and disappointed. I have already given up on this.
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 2:00 pm
by grumpyoldgit » Sat May 26, 2012 2:19 pm
Er. All of you are logging onto the forum for the first time in May! I've no idea who/where you have been contacting but I am sure a quick PM to Liz or another of the team a few months ago and this could have been sorted out. Most of them are on here daily; some of them obsessively so, so I would expect contact is imminent.
User avatar
Posts: 1458
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:20 pm
by grumpyoldgit » Sat May 26, 2012 2:26 pm
As a matter of curiosity. The is a QtonPi distro on the downloads page. Is this not yours?
User avatar
Posts: 1458
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:20 pm
by jppiiroinen » Sat May 26, 2012 2:47 pm
grumpyoldgit wrote:As a matter of curiosity. The is a QtonPi distro on the downloads page. Is this not yours?


Yeah.. that is also one of the big frustrations among all.. We kind of should be developing it, but we have been and still are out of hardware. At least I do know anybody with RPi hardware on QtOnPi project.

So also based on it, it seems that the RPi Foundation is saying that they like and support QtOnPi seems not to be that much true story, except "on paper".
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 9:51 am
by richmoore » Sat May 26, 2012 2:48 pm
Yes, the QtOnPi distribution is part of the programme - it's being developed by some of the Nokia guys who have access to a development board. The idea is to make it very easy for people to develop apps using Qt by providing everything from the SD card image through to a working tool chain and IDE.
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:32 am
by jppiiroinen » Sat May 26, 2012 2:52 pm
grumpyoldgit wrote:Er. All of you are logging onto the forum for the first time in May! I've no idea who/where you have been contacting but I am sure a quick PM to Liz or another of the team a few months ago and this could have been sorted out. Most of them are on here daily; some of them obsessively so, so I would expect contact is imminent.


I have trusted that only a single point contact from Nokia would be enough to get things done, and the discussions on the topic has been done on the qtonpi mailing list [1].

[1] http://lists.qt-project.org/pipermail/qtonpi/
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 9:51 am
by abishur » Sat May 26, 2012 3:14 pm
jppiiroinen wrote:Dear Raspberry Pi foundation,

I am one of the people (speaking only on my own behalf) in the QtOnPI Device Programme [2], which promised to deliver a device for development purposes from the first batch. We have been pending our devices since last December. And I need to describe my frustration that from my point of view it really seems that you do not care at all about the community.

At first when I got the information that I will receive one board thru Nokia and you, I was so in love with you, but now it has turned out into kind of a hate relationship of an old couple, where the other partner has gone drinking and never comes home, just gives a empty promises.

It has been now already over a month after we have sent the codes to your email, with the shipping details.

1) What on earth is taking so long?
2) Why do you want us to be frustrated in the first place?
3) Would not it make sense to have an excellent community of developers who are willing to work for free for you?

[1] viewforum.php?f=24
[2] http://qt-project.org/wiki/Device-program


Kind regards,
Juhapekka Piiroinen


1) It's been well documented what has been delaying things since December (or do you just mean since the release last monthish?)
2) Why would you think they *want* you to be frustrated? I suppose you're just airing complaints, but it is an extremely rude accusation
3) You are again assuming that they have deliberately holding out on you.

You mentioned later on that you had some dialog in some e-mails but "nothing when forward" what did those e-mails say the hold up was? I mean did they make it clear if the hold up was on the RPF's end, or has the hold up been nokia, or RS or Farnell? Seems like their responses are some fairly vital pieces of information here.
Dear forum: Play nice ;-)
User avatar
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4269
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:10 am
Location: USA
by jppiiroinen » Sat May 26, 2012 3:26 pm
abishur wrote:You mentioned later on that you had some dialog in some e-mails but "nothing when forward" what did those e-mails say the hold up was? I mean did they make it clear if the hold up was on the RPF's end, or has the hold up been nokia, or RS or Farnell? Seems like their responses are some fairly vital pieces of information here.


Here is a summary from the mailing list:

December 10 - Discussion about personal code distribution
http://lists.qt-project.org/pipermail/q ... 00042.html

December 14 - Clearly said that there is no shipping date yet
http://lists.qt-project.org/pipermail/q ... 00079.html

January 10 - Manufacturing starts
http://lists.qt-project.org/pipermail/q ... 00096.html

January 11 - Nokia confirmed that the devices are coming from the first batch.
http://lists.qt-project.org/pipermail/q ... 00112.html

February 27 - Release date has been confirmed
http://lists.qt-project.org/pipermail/q ... 00171.html

February 29 - Nokia says that boards has been reserved and there is no risk of missing out.
http://lists.qt-project.org/pipermail/q ... 00209.html

April 13 - Nokia states that there is a Plan B (sounds familiar?)
http://lists.qt-project.org/pipermail/q ... 00261.html

May 10 - Nokia confirms that "we have done anything possible within
legal and polite terms to get the attention and the first batch devices
from the RPi Foundation"
http://lists.qt-project.org/pipermail/q ... 00353.html
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 9:51 am
by richmoore » Sat May 26, 2012 3:26 pm
abishur wrote:You mentioned later on that you had some dialog in some e-mails but "nothing when forward" what did those e-mails say the hold up was? I mean did they make it clear if the hold up was on the RPF's end, or has the hold up been nokia, or RS or Farnell? Seems like their responses are some fairly vital pieces of information here.


Unfortunately that's unclear. Nokia have done their part (they provided the voucher codes to the relevant parties). RPF provided via nokia a contact email (at the RPF) to which we should send the codes. Since then I've not heard anything from RPF, not even an acknowledgement of receipt when I sent my code. I sent a follow up email to contact address we'd been provided but didn't get any response. The PIs for this programme are coming from the foundation (possibly via RS or Farnell) rather than directly from RS/Farnell, so we don't have access to an order tracker or anything. Originally the idea was that the codes would be used on the foundation's shop, but obviously the huge demand and the change in distribution method meant that had to change.

I don't think anyone is deliberately doing anything wrong or with holding information (and think it's wrong for anyone to suggest that), I think it's more a case of this slipping through the cracks because people are busy.
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:32 am
by jppiiroinen » Sat May 26, 2012 3:33 pm
richmoore wrote:
abishur wrote:You mentioned later on that you had some dialog in some e-mails but "nothing when forward" what did those e-mails say the hold up was? I mean did they make it clear if the hold up was on the RPF's end, or has the hold up been nokia, or RS or Farnell? Seems like their responses are some fairly vital pieces of information here.


Unfortunately that's unclear. Nokia have done their part (they provided the voucher codes to the relevant parties). RPF provided via nokia a contact email (at the RPF) to which we should send the codes. Since then I've not heard anything from RPF, not even an acknowledgement of receipt when I sent my code. I sent a follow up email to contact address we'd been provided but didn't get any response. The PIs for this programme are coming from the foundation (possibly via RS or Farnell) rather than directly from RS/Farnell, so we don't have access to an order tracker or anything. Originally the idea was that the codes would be used on the foundation's shop, but obviously the huge demand and the change in distribution method meant that had to change.

I don't think anyone is deliberately doing anything wrong or with holding information (and think it's wrong for anyone to suggest that), I think it's more a case of this slipping through the cracks because people are busy.


I would be really happy if somebody from RPi would reply officially that they even know this issue and that they are working on this. Nor that our order emails has been received and acknowledged by somebody.
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 9:51 am
by jppiiroinen » Sat May 26, 2012 4:02 pm
jppiiroinen wrote:I would be really happy if somebody from RPi would reply officially that they even know this issue and that they are working on this. Nor that our order emails has been received and acknowledged by somebody.


Although I would be happy also to hear that we are not going to receive any boards, as then I could just:
- forget the QtOnPi Device Program and
- look for an alternative hardware for the pet project at home.

So any kind of news from the RPi Foundation would be great, in this case.
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 9:51 am
by obarthelemy » Sat May 26, 2012 4:24 pm
Hi.

Sorry for the delay in getting your Pis, I'm sure you'll get them Real Soon Now.

Unluckily, my guess would be that Liz is the one handling those matters, and she just took off for a week's holiday during which she's supposed to be offline.

Hang on one more week please, I'm sure she'll get back to you shortly after coming back.
Posts: 1399
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:53 pm
by Max » Sat May 26, 2012 7:55 pm
abishur wrote:3) You are again assuming that they have deliberately holding out on you.


Well, if you don't want people assuming such things you should be honest and open about what happened to the boards.

Nokia has stated several times that the foundation has promised them that the boards would be from the first batch.
And that the boards were ready and waiting to be dispatched when we were told to e-mail our postal address details to a @raspberrypi.org e-mail address a while ago.

Even Liz herself made a remark here to that extent on april 12:

viewtopic.php?t=4711&p=62933

liz wrote:That's right - Eben spoke to Quim Gil last night, and Myra's sending the boards out to the QT guys next week direct from the Foundation.


If then that turns out to be not the case, you can't blame people for thinking the foundation sold those boards to someone else.
by trilion99 » Sun May 27, 2012 2:54 am
For sure this has not been handled very well. I think actually most of us are not complaining about receiving a board a bit sooner or later than others, but more about the policy of not keeping us updated with reliable information.
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun May 27, 2012 2:46 am
by trilion99 » Sun May 27, 2012 3:28 am
This is only speculation, but I think I can imagine what happened: In the beginning it was planned to ship the boards directly from the foundation to the QtonPi people. But then the people at the foundation realized that the demand for the boards would be huge (incl. the necessary amount of management, up-front payment etc.), so it was decided to pass the whole distribution to Farnell and RS. The contract with these two companies probably grants them some kind of exclusive access to the initial board production output so that they can satisfy the demand as quickly as possible and get their costs in. So the foundation can't just grab 400 boards and ship them to the QtonPi people. Also the distributors have their own accounting and ordering system, and that is already filled with all the normal orders. So it is also difficult to ask them to manually insert 400 orders somewhere in the beginning of the queue. The point is even if Nokia paid upfront for the QtonPi boards, the stakes on the table for the foundation and the distributors are much higher than that and therefore the thing becomes kind of low priority. Distributors and foundation are probably quite happy with the distribution running as it is, so nobody is really keen on manually processing another 300 to 400 packages. I think the only "quick" fix to this would be if someone at Nokia managed to get his hands on 400 boards, pays them to be sent to Nokia and then handles the distribution to the QtonPi people. But I guess Nokia was initially counting on the foundation to do just that, so they have no capacities to do that either :-)
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun May 27, 2012 2:46 am
by jppiiroinen » Sun May 27, 2012 7:00 am
trilion99 wrote:For sure this has not been handled very well. I think actually most of us are not complaining about receiving a board a bit sooner or later than others, but more about the policy of not keeping us updated with reliable information.


I couldn't agree more.. :geek:


trilion99 wrote:This is only speculation, but I think I can imagine what happened: In the beginning it was planned to ship the boards directly from the foundation to the QtonPi people. But then the people at the foundation realized that the demand for the boards would be huge (incl. the necessary amount of management, up-front payment etc.), so it was decided to pass the whole distribution to Farnell and RS. The contract with these two companies probably grants them some kind of exclusive access to the initial board production output so that they can satisfy the demand as quickly as possible and get their costs in. So the foundation can't just grab 400 boards and ship them to the QtonPi people. Also the distributors have their own accounting and ordering system, and that is already filled with all the normal orders. So it is also difficult to ask them to manually insert 400 orders somewhere in the beginning of the queue. The point is even if Nokia paid upfront for the QtonPi boards, the stakes on the table for the foundation and the distributors are much higher than that and therefore the thing becomes kind of low priority. Distributors and foundation are probably quite happy with the distribution running as it is, so nobody is really keen on manually processing another 300 to 400 packages. I think the only "quick" fix to this would be if someone at Nokia managed to get his hands on 400 boards, pays them to be sent to Nokia and then handles the distribution to the QtonPi people. But I guess Nokia was initially counting on the foundation to do just that, so they have no capacities to do that either :-)


I was thinking the same :lol:

But all in all it seems to be in a bit disoriented process state, but I am sure that somebody remembers us, but maybe the thing is that nobody has had guts to be blunt and say "sorry guys, but you will have to wait a bit longer, because we failed to do something". Everybody would understand it as having negative information is a lot more polite than getting zero info, as at least then you can feel that your future contribution to community is something to really consider to be valuable by others.
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 9:51 am
by prodata » Sun May 27, 2012 8:52 am
As a total know-nothing outsider to this project, what does strike me as curious glancing through this thread is why so many as 400 boards would be needed. I wonder if this is part of the problem? When so many potential Pi users are desperate to get their hands on one single Pi, why is such a high number as 400 needed for this community project? Couldn't some useful progress be made with say 10 boards? What is it that promises to be so good about QtOnPi compared to say the present Debian OS release that it merits diverting such a huge number of Pi's from individual users. I'm sure there's an excellent and totally persuasive answer to this, but as a newcomer to Linux, it's difficult for me to comprehend the potential benefits.Would anyone care to explain (in simple terms please)?
Posts: 113
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:53 pm
by jppiiroinen » Sun May 27, 2012 9:09 am
prodata wrote:As a total know-nothing outsider to this project, what does strike me as curious glancing through this thread is why so many as 400 boards would be needed.


Here are all the pending showcase projects:
http://qt-project.org/wiki/QtonPi-Accepted/

prodata wrote:When so many potential Pi users are desperate to get their hands on one single Pi, why is such a high number as 400 needed for this community project


As far as I know Nokia has bought and paid the boards already. And as seen on the list that there are ~400 open source projects, not a single project.
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 9:51 am